Surely he only has to regularly finish just behind Ogier to prove his worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
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Surely he only has to regularly finish just behind Ogier to prove his worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
True that. But I think Katsuta will run older version anyway if they will now modify Yaris' aero.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I don't think it will be hard for Evans to outdo Meeke and especially Latvala's performance with the Yaris.
of course it isnt hard, he out did them also this year with 3 less events.
next topic please.
If we take a look.. Meeke was driving a complete dog, and Citroen made him the fail guy. They then totally re-engineered the car, ran completely out of jokers, put the 6 time WRC champ in it, and he done nothing only complain. Meeke was sitting with his confidence in the gutter.. missed 1/2 a season, then was up against Tanak, who was in his 2nd year in the car, and Latvlala's third. Meeke only made minor mistakes (and seemed to suffer away more than others for a faulty batch of wheels in 1st half of the seaosn) , and was just getting comfortable in car mid season, then was doing events he missed the previous year. He was on Tanak's coat tails for Portugal, Germany, GB and maybe so few others, and was beating him in Finland and Spain until a small mistake. If he had only converted a few of those to a win or few podiums, took the points he 'gave' to Ogier for example, he'd be latched onto the back of the big 3, in his first year in the car. I really do think his 2nd year in Toyota would have been a lot better, but it looks to me like Ogier picked his team mates. Mäkinen has told jounolists that Meeke was confirmed for 2020. People are way too hard on him, OK he makes a mistakes, but its only his will to win. He also suffers from his name being about for years.. but actually only done 3 full season in WRC, and none of them consecutive. He will never ever go down as the 'consistant' be he sure as hell is quick and can on his day.. match anyone.. He sure has place in WRC... as much as any other driver below the top 3.
Don't think I can remember reading a post as good as this for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
You need to be above that to earn a spot in WRC these days. Hanninen shine in second half of the season but was benched after one year. Sure he was there to develop the car but he would still be reliable point scorer if not anything more, who knows. Now we have few guys that doesn't show anythig special but 10th place given by the mistake of others and they are like years away from top in times.
Had, could, should, little mistake, if....
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
Fair and Reasoned comments. Agree completely.
I don’t have favourites as I don’t support anyone particularly, I just enjoy the sport. But if I did it would be Meeke, I just like him, and always want him to do well. Nobody wanted him to keep the seat more than me as I too think he ‘could’ do a great job, but looking at it objectively, the mistakes this year in Portugal, Finland and Spain were all very silly and totally needless. He should have been on the podium in all those rallies, and he can only blame himself for not being.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
I really hope we haven’t seen the last of him, as his pure speed when it comes together is amazing...
The things that got Meeke fired this year was actually not the mistakes when pushing for something (f.e. in Spain) or the lack of results (one podium...one), it was the mistakes when he had nothing to push for...Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Portugal PS crash in first corner when 2nd was already lost. Finland Sunday crash when already in super rally.
Interestingly his final kick from Citroen was for similar situation.
Apart from that I find it a bit special that you write something like this. Before mid-2017 Tanak was all about "had, could, made little mistake...". Sure he was a bit different age.
Yes, agree with this too. People tend to forget that Kris has actually had less full seasons than it seems. Evans has had more complete seasons, Tanak too, and it wasnt that long ago that Tanak was prone to putting the car in a ditch, or lake. I think the problem is with Kris that he is always put under a lot of pressure because his future has never been secure. The only time he had a multi year contract, the first year of which, albiet a part season, he seemed to go very well with no pressure, winning a couple of rallies and in contention for the win in a couple of others but for unfortunate misshaps that weren't really driver errors. Then came the pressure of driving a turd, to be rewarded with the sack after two non finishes last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by bassist
Kris started this year in a new car showing great speed, but for rim failures which possibly then led to mistakes trying to chase results he felt he had already deserved this season. It just seems to me that he is always very unlucky, and where the other drivers make mistakes and often get away with it, Kris always seems to pay a heavy price for the smallest of mistakes.
Meeke has had a ton of chances, I guess everybody is tired of these ifs by now. Great character, great raw speed but has many downsides. Apparently a lot of team bosses think the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
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Meeke is 40. If he had been smart, then he should have started the 2019 season controlled and steady.. Securing himself a seat for 2020 not coughing out statements, that he is still in fight for WDC or about ,,team help,, that Ott hasn't done anything for him during the season.. FO!
May be just Toyota got Ogier, and Ogier wanted a teammate who is steady and fast, so he demanded Evans, Kalle had a seat anyway, so Latvala and Meeke got no place in Toyota now.
Remember that Tänak had to fight harder for the title, because Meeke and Latvala were constantly giving away points to competitors. As we can say the same situation was it with Ogier, it was not a good season for Lappi as well. So I think very good and reasonable lineup for Toyota.
Being a massive Tanak fan you should know all about fine margins, little mistakes and what patience can do. As well as being afforded chance after chance, when you make comments like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
I think a lot of comments above are fair and measured, nobody is trying to say Meeke is a top 3 driver or that it's a shock he probably won't have a seat next season. But a driver of Meeke's ability should still be in the top class and it will be unfortunate for the sport not to have him in a car, just like it is if Paddon isn't there, if Mikkelsen isn't there, if Ostberg isn't there or Lappi isn't there etc etc. Everyone outside of the top 3 is a good driver and personality, and all offer different things. Some are safe and reliable, some are really fast on their day and can challenge at the front, some have top potential but have lost their way a bit (Lappi, Mikkelsen).
Rallying is all about fine margins for drivers that aren't called Sebastian in this century, so ofcourse people will talk about 'what ifs', 'what could've been' etc. A Tanak fan should know that better than anyone, considering the factors at play that have helped him make it to where he is now (when he could quite have easily gone the other way).
As far as I remember he said that once pre season, unless I'm mistaken? Tell me any driver in the wrc who still doesn't have an ambition to be a champion, other than Sordo and Loeb who do half seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
You're wrong about Meeke not starting sensibly. A controlled and fast drive in monte, where two broken rims cost him. Sweden - where he has never been good - he drove within himself and got to the finish. Mexico, solid first day from 4th on the road and then produced an incredible stage time and went into the lead on day 2 - only to get a puncture (not from a mistake) which dropped him back. Corsica, a mistake in the recce. Then he went back to crazy Meeke and was really fast or making mistakes. Argentina, led for on day 1 before slipping back. On day 2 he had steering issues, brake failure, a puncture and time penalty which dropped him to 5th. Fought back to overhaul Ogier only to get a puncture on the last stage which cost him a podium (again didn't hit anything).
The problem for Meeke's season came after he started sensibly. He tried to push for results he felt he had merited/missed out on, and that's when you got the silly Portugal/ Finland mistakes that inexplicably chucked away two vital podiums. Add those two podiums to the podiums lost in Mexico and Argentina and it really starts to add up and hurt him and Toyota. You could class Spain as well, but I believe Toyota/Tommi told him to push like crazy as he had to for Toyota's chances in the manufacturers. And when Meeke does that, you know an accident can be round the next corner.
I think that run of Chile/ Portugal/ Sardinia/ Finland is the real disaster of Meeke's season, that he will be kicking himself for. He was genuinely really unlucky in Monte, Mexico and Argentina, but he can only blame himself for the mid season collapse.
Evans is a yes man, and will bow to Ogier and support him in his bid for a last drivers championship. Good for Ogier, but to be a wdc you need to have a ruthless streak, you need to believe you are capable of winning and drive for yourself, not for someone else. Meeke and Latvala are both well capable of being as fast as anyone, and have that winning mentality, even if it doesn't work out for them. Evans needs to grow a pair and be his own man, screw Ogier he is on the cusp of retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raini
You guys really think it's up to the drivers to decide things like this? To show his "pair", be faster than Ogier on Monte and a few following events. Maybe then Mäkinen tells Ogier to slow down for Evans later in the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
Yes. To Be a world champion you believe you are better than the rest. End of. Did Loeb drive for Citroen thinking he need to support his world champion team mates Sainz and McRae. No . . and became 9 times champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Did Ogier believe he had to support Loeb. No, he is 6 times world champ. Other disciplines, MotoGP, did Marquez join Honda as a rookie believing he has to support Pedrosa. No, won in rookie year . . He is 6 times champ. Did Hamilton join McLaren and believe he had to support Alonso. No . . He is 6 times champ.
Do you see as pattern emerging? You need to believe and be ruthless.
Loeb started his 2003 season with a win ahead of said teammates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
And he had to leave Citroen.Quote:
Did Ogier believe he had to support Loeb. No, he is 6 times world champ.
https://beta.is.fi/ralli/art-2000006325013.html
Finnish media IS reports that Toyota actually didn't have to pay anything to get Ogier released from his Citroen contract. The story claims Ogier handled that part himself, bypassing Budar and negotiated directly with Citroen's top management. If the story's true, Ogier had decided already in August that he would not drive for Citroen in 2020 and started to look for options. Allegedly Ogier convinced the Citroen bosses that they would save a huge amount of money by just releasing him from his contract and eventually that happened. Sounds silly but perfectly fits this silly season we're still living in.
Yep. Budar said too that he realized after Germany Ogier doesn’t want to continue.
What a power one guy has.
So Tommi and Ogier conspired from germany onwards
So that means Mäkinen didn't want to sign Tänaks contract.
Märtin wasn't lying
I think that's somewhat hasty conclusion. Yes, it could be that Mäkinen didn't want to sign Tänak's contract, but I find it hard to believe it would have been because of Ogier. Why would Mäkinen prefer the services of Ogier (who's anyway available for only one year) over Tänak's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendaarne
What comes to this Märtin/Mäkinen debate, I'm 150% sure that neither one of them is telling the truth as we know it. Ofcourse both sides tell the story as they see it, which usually means that "the truth" is there somewhere in-between.
Yeah
Theres always two sides to a story
Truth is probably somewhere inbetween
Probably both are somewhat at fault 😃
And both your points go to prove about winning mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
So Evans shouldQuote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
1) be faster than Ogier
2) be prepared to leave Toyota if he doesn't obey team orders
like I already said
Yes, if he has real ambitions to be world championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
2 is moot point though, as Evans has a two year deal and Ogier only 1 as he is retiring, so Evans won't have to leave.
Absolutely spot on....Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
That sounds like total BS. Meeke and Citroen went to court for way lower figures than in Ogier case so why on earth should PSA bosses be convinced to let Ogier go without any kind of compensation? Citroen extended for 2 years their WRC program with Ogier playing the central role in it; any court would force Ogier to pay them for breaking the contract. Besides, by signing Ogier PSA lost a major marketing asset like Loeb. For all this, that ‘you’re free to go’ version doesn’t make any sense; it’s probably a way to make us believe that Toyota/Makinen didn’t end paying a fortune to get Ogier and save their faces after Tanak leaving to Hyundai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Why did Ogier leave? Ask yourself again.. PSA coud be glad that he even show up to their team after ''that joke of their comitment'' Why did Abu Dhabi leave too? I think for the same reason (milking money and doing nothing about the real problem).
That joke of commitment? :laugh:
Look at the stats since 2003 and all the WDC and constructor titles + rally wins..
Ogier was in the fight for WDC thru 2019.. he made mistakes, Tänak had car issues..
No one forced Ogier to leave MSport and join Citroen. He did it believing it’d be possible to improve the C3 and figth for the title, as he actually managed to do until the last event. Besides, at the end of 2018 Toyota (or Hyundai) doors were closed to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Btw, despite the initial attempt to carry on a young talent program in the MERC, it didn’t take long to see that Abu Dhabi Racing was just a way for Al Qassimi to be driving in the WRC. Last year he finally understood it was better for him to run Cross Country events instead of WRC rallys. He’s been using a Peugeot 3008, run by PHSport with Peugeot Sport help.
Lmao Mia with the big boss hoodie https://www.instagram.com/p/B5fD6YcJ...=1hhazttvtuaq5
That’s right of course
Ogier wasnt happy with Ford's lack of commitment at M-Sport and believed Citroen's was higher as a full factory team.
The main problem was the C3 WRC was so flawed, not their commitment. Every fix they made caused a new problem elsewhere.
Of course their commitment. They've spent the past how many years with the will they won't they fannying around of pulling out of the sport, they take a year to implement changes Meeke called for, they haven't made any aero upgrades until it was too late, and they have never as far as I am aware held their hands up and said they've built a turd, just created a blame culture and buried their heads in the sand not holding themselves accountable for their fuckups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
There has been no driver stability in the team until last season having barely fielded a team with one lead driver on every rally in a season let alone two drivers, and three drivers which is pretty much a given requirement to fight for world championships, well you can forget that.
Yeah, but the problem is that Evans is not faster than Ogier...lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
Tanak wasn't faster than Ogier, now he is. Neuville wasn't too, now he is somewhere. Everyone needs to start somewhere and build up.
It’s sad to see rally fans so eagerly bashing Citroen for these last 3 seasons (even if those won’t hurt the fact of Citroen being the most successful WRC manu in the series history). It’s true that they failed to sort the C3 as a competitive car and that they’ve struggled to fix it, but they were still bravely trying and any fair observer should take Ogier 3 wins and 8 podiums (besides Lappi 2 P2’s) as positive development signs; unfortunately impossible to confirm next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
It’s even sadder to see that most of the critics are Meeke fans, unable to recognize that no one but Meeke himself can be responsible for his misfortune. Actually, it really worthes to take a look on Meeke’s eWRC profile https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/70-kris-meeke/ to see that it was Citroen and Peugeot that help him the most during his carrer. In the JWRC, at the IRC and in the WRC, PSA brands, directly or through their partners, gave Meeke plenty of chances to live his rally passion on a top level. Mini/Prodrive and now Toyota only kept him for one season, while MSport never gave him a chance; you can’t blame Citroen for that…