Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Tell you what if Massa or Kimi win the title over Lewis by anything less than 15 points they should offer the trophy to Lewis on one condition .... he go on the BBC 2 at about 8:55 on a Sunday night and say "I'm a clot and I ruined my championship and I've WON!"

Hey that could be a TV show *strokes chin* :cool:

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I'd like to see that show.

Can we have a segment where Eddie Irvine goes up to people with a microphone in hand and asks them that very difficult question What's your ****in' problem?" before he gives them a decent Belfast Kiss?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

People are only kicking up a fuss about this because it has offended their sense of natural justice as the article says. If this were happening to someone further down the field no one would care. In fact if it was that Alonso whose fans are such horrible horrible people then all these people who have such a strong sense of justice would be poo-pooing Fernando for unsportsmanlike behaviour and cheating and so on and taking delight in that dirty cheating Spaniard getting what was coming to him.

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Of course no-one would care if it were down the field as it wouldn't change a result like this decision has. I believe that Hamilton was going to win whether he offended or not. Absent any technical data available to indicate otherwise he should've been given the benefit of the doubt. If a review later deems an offence had occurred then a penalty would be served at the next race.

I don't know about anybody else but my issue is that an in-race penalty has been levied after the race is run and that the penalty then becomes a punishment because of that. A drive-through penalty given after the race is finished is far more severe than one given during a race. A drive-through penalty by its nature leaves the driver with an opportunity to lessen its impact. It is a more severe outcome after the race and becomes punitive in my opinion.

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Lewis may just be the most skilled driver out there and the fastest driver but if he doesn't pull his head out of his own arse and realise that he's special only in the eyes of himself, his dad and his legions of adoring fans then he's going to continue to get penalties like this which he doesn't need to be getting.

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If there is any 'natural justice' in this process then Hamilton will be re-instated as the race winner and a few stewards will return their heads to their nether regions until the next time we need a "hot" thread.

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Think about it...... if he'd not crashed into Kimi he'd have had lets say 6 points minimum? Magny Cours when he passed Vettel? Can't remember what position he was in but lets take 25 seconds off his time for the stop and go and he would have another 4 points and Spa he would have another 4 points as well. So that's 14 points that Lewis has lost out on for being a little bit loose in the brain department.

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Hamilton was trying to pass a great driver in a great car, At worst this was a 'racing' racing incident. Rather than being condemned we should be applauding drivers who are willing and able to drive these cars aggressively AND safely.

Tear them a new one when they do things that are dangerous but as long as the intent was correct then at most it was a technical error. Any penalty should be considerate of the honestly assessed benefit gained.

Ferrari were well beaten on the day and it might do their brand a great service if they gave the winners trophy to Lewis.

A symbolic gesture I know but a powerful one that would serve to remind everyone that this is a sport.

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Tell you what if Massa or Kimi win the title over Lewis by anything less than 15 points they should offer the trophy to Lewis on one condition .... he go on the BBC 2 at about 8:55 on a Sunday night and say "I'm a clot and I ruined my championship and I've WON!"

Hey that could be a TV show *strokes chin* :cool:

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I'd watch it. :)


I believe that Hamilton paid the price for youthful enthusiasm in 2007. If he does lose the championship by 15 points this year then it will simply be an indication that F1 is not quite ready to lose the tag 'circus'.

:)

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Originally Posted by wedge

Reading the quotes from today's press conference did make me change my mind for a moment but re-watching the replays I still think Lewis was pushed wide and no option but to cut the second part of the chicane else there would've been contact.

What Lewis is guilty of is 'improperly' conceding his position. Maybe the stewards/Charly Whiting are partly to blame because they should've addressed this issue properly in the driver briefings or its going out of the other ear when you're in the heat of the battle.

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For me, it still goes back to a wet rack and how tough it is to drive in the wet. One takes a path and simply hopes they are not expecting too much from the tires and car, and it will hold the line. If the track were dry, I might have had a different opinion and say there was more justification for the steards opinion.

However, I watched my copy of the race, and listened to Lewis pop off and brag on about his superior car control in the wet and so on. SSOOOO if he be that good, then maybe he really has no excuse and should suffer accordingly. As they say, he made his bed so he should sleep in it.

Q. Was part of Spa that mentally you thought you had done enough to let him past you, but because the Ferrari had no grip it could not get past you?
LH: I don't think he had no grip. We had the same amount of grip.
Q. But he was braking much earlier than you?
LH: Well, that's his driving, that's all. That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge. And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip.


I suppose that is why LH ended up in the dirt and almost stuck right before Kimi spun again and gave up the lead for the last time....

FM: To be honest, I've given my ideas on this many times about what happened. What's happened is that he took an advantage by cutting the chicane. You can ask other drivers how many overtaking manoeuvres you see there: no overtaking. Going from the last corner to the first corner is such a small straight, so he took an advantage, that's clear, that's my opinion, so it doesn't change.

Q: (Dan Knutson - National Speed Sport News) Could I ask the other four drivers what they thought about that incident and Kimi, and as a follow-up, do you think you and other drivers might be afraid to fight for a position now that you might get a penalty?

GF: I have just seen pictures, so it is difficult for me to say whether what happened was right or not. For sure, maybe, he took a small advantage, that's why he had the possibility, as Felipe said, to overtake him again in braking for turn one. But obviously, a 25s penalty was quite a strong penalty. As for the second question: when we get in the car and we're fighting to overtake a car, we don't think about that. We just try to do our best. Obviously we know if we cut a chicane or we take an advantage we need to back off and give the position back.

SB: Yes, I think the rules are very clear. Maybe the penalty was a bit hard, but I think he's made the same mistake twice: he's done it in Magny-Cours and he's done it again in Spa. I don't really understand why there's been such a mess around it. There's a rule book and everybody has to obey the same thing. The penalty is really rough but in the end it's up to you to give the position back or not. Pretty straightforward.

NR: Yeah, I definitely agree, because he did get an advantage, because he wouldn't have been that close behind Kimi had he not cut the chicane. But then again, I also think the penalty was a bit harsh as that did not have such a big effect on the actual race result in the end.

JT: Well, I agree completely with my colleagues. The penalty was quite big but I'm not a steward and I cannot decide what kind of penalty should be given. But on the other hand, it was very clear that he got an advantage out of it, so that's where it is. The rules are very clear. If you cut the chicane and you get an advantage, you just have to drop back and give back the position and in Lewis's case he shouldn't have attacked straight away at the next corner; that was it. On the other hand, with this new chicane, there is a lot of run-off, it gives you more chance to attack because in the case of a mistake, you wouldn't end up in a wall or in the gravel. If it was the case of Lewis in Spa, he wouldn't have gone much further than that. We have more chances to overtake.

SB: I think it was very clear and I agree as well. You have to be responsible for what you decide to do, and in this particular case, if you do gain an advantage like I said, you just give it back and make sure that you don't expose yourself to penalties. I think it's the easiest way to handle it. In my previous experience, my previous life in the States, it was actually a common thing. The stewards would not take action if you gave the position back, so I think it's only fair.

NR: I agree and I don't think it's going to stop us from trying to attack, definitely.

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Originally Posted by HenryM

You can ask other drivers how many overtaking manoeuvres you see there: no overtaking.

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I have to disagree with my man here - when its dry yes, no overtaking, but it wasnt dry, it was raining. When it rains every corner is an overtaking opportunity.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Reading the quotes from today's press conference did make me change my mind for a moment but re-watching the replays I still think Lewis was pushed wide and no option but to cut the second part of the chicane else there would've been contact.

What Lewis is guilty of is 'improperly' conceding his position. Maybe the stewards/Charly Whiting are partly to blame because they should've addressed this issue properly in the driver briefings or its going out of the other ear when you're in the heat of the battle.

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70480

DC has an interesting take on the issue (the emphasis is mine):

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Originally Posted by DC

At the end of the day this is a sport. There are a set of rules and regulations, and the race track is defined by the white lines. In Monaco you don't cut corners, you hit barriers.

You can argue it was not Monaco, but the driver would have respected the corner if there was a barrier there. Lewis knew there was no barrier so he cut the corner.

He did not need to go across there particularly, he did because he tried to go side-by-side with Raikkonen and Kimi squashed him in that position. From a driving point of view you have to look at the white lines as barriers.

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So perhaps Hamilton shouldn't have been in a position to be squeezed by the Ferrari in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

Of course no-one would care if it were down the field as it wouldn't change a result like this decision has. I believe that Hamilton was going to win whether he offended or not. Absent any technical data available to indicate otherwise he should've been given the benefit of the doubt. If a review later deems an offence had occurred then a penalty would be served at the next race.

I don't know about anybody else but my issue is that an in-race penalty has been levied after the race is run and that the penalty then becomes a punishment because of that. A drive-through penalty given after the race is finished is far more severe than one given during a race. A drive-through penalty by its nature leaves the driver with an opportunity to lessen its impact. It is a more severe outcome after the race and becomes punitive in my opinion.




If there is any 'natural justice' in this process then Hamilton will be re-instated as the race winner and a few stewards will return their heads to their nether regions until the next time we need a "hot" thread.




Hamilton was trying to pass a great driver in a great car, At worst this was a 'racing' racing incident. Rather than being condemned we should be applauding drivers who are willing and able to drive these cars aggressively AND safely.

Tear them a new one when they do things that are dangerous but as long as the intent was correct then at most it was a technical error. Any penalty should be considerate of the honestly assessed benefit gained.

Ferrari were well beaten on the day and it might do their brand a great service if they gave the winners trophy to Lewis.

A symbolic gesture I know but a powerful one that would serve to remind everyone that this is a sport.




I'd watch it. :)


I believe that Hamilton paid the price for youthful enthusiasm in 2007. If he does lose the championship by 15 points this year then it will simply be an indication that F1 is not quite ready to lose the tag 'circus'.

:)

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What a load of rubbish. If you serve the penalty at the next race then you send the message that drivers can just do this thing and come up with a good pit strategy for the next race and get away with it. If you penalise a driver for the current race then you should.

Ferrari were not beaten on the day. Ferrari played by the rules on that day and finished 2nd to a driver who was deemed to have gained an advantage by cuttin the chicane and they were then given the win. Ferrari or Massa giving back trophies would be hilariously silly.

If there is any natural justice eh? You totally miss the point that the article makes in regards to natural justice my friend. Natural justice doesn't take into account the rules and as they say rules are rules and must be adhered to.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Q. Was part of Spa that mentally you thought you had done enough to let him past you, but because the Ferrari had no grip it could not get past you?
LH: I don't think he had no grip. We had the same amount of grip.
Q. But he was braking much earlier than you?
LH: Well, that's his driving, that's all. That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge. And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip.


I suppose that is why LH ended up in the dirt and almost stuck right before Kimi spun again and gave up the lead for the last time....

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Nobody likes an arrogant so and so.....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

What a load of rubbish. If you serve the penalty at the next race then you send the message that drivers can just do this thing and come up with a good pit strategy for the next race and get away with it. If you penalise a driver for the current race then you should.

Ferrari were not beaten on the day. Ferrari played by the rules on that day and finished 2nd to a driver who was deemed to have gained an advantage by cuttin the chicane and they were then given the win. Ferrari or Massa giving back trophies would be hilariously silly.

If there is any natural justice eh? You totally miss the point that the article makes in regards to natural justice my friend. Natural justice doesn't take into account the rules and as they say rules are rules and must be adhered to.

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watch it Whyzars....views on things other than what certain people on here think are not tolerated...before you know....they will call on people to ignore you....or what you say or think is rubbish..a term I rather find disrespectfull.....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Nobody likes an arrogant so and so.....

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Fact is Lewis is great in those conditions. He is also great on the brakes - late breaking and maintaining control under heavy breaking.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Fact is Lewis is great in those conditions. He is also great on the brakes - late breaking and maintaining control under heavy breaking.

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Agreed, but I don't like hearing how great he is from HIM!!!!


(But IF he is so great, why wouldn't he have time to tuck in behind Kimi through the chicane and make a better move later? Answer - his GREAT choice was to cut the chicane because it was easier!)

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Fact is Lewis is great in those conditions. He is also great on the brakes - late breaking and maintaining control under heavy breaking.

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true.. + I never got it how people can have an opinion about someone..not knowing them personaly...I am involved in the modeling world...and believe me there's a big difference between the pics you see in magazines and the person/model in normal life..just to give a sample...

Maybe lewis is arrogant..maybe he isn't..i would only be able to tell if I had to do with him personaly and on a regular base...andddddd I am a fan of him because of what he does on the racertracks....Not so much for what he says...

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

...andddddd I am a fan of him because of what he does on the racertracks....Not so much for what he says...

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Does the same go for Alonso?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

You said it, Michael was protecting his position. That means he already had an advantage, namely that he was leading. Please define how you gain an advantage when an advantage is what you already have?

Forgive me, but I'm not sure how you can protect a position but not be in front, so your claim doesn't appear valid itself.

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If thats your point of view, was it wrong to penalise Hamilton in France 2008 for cutting a chicane. He was more than infront of the Torro Rosso at the time, but they penalised him on condition they thought he saved a place by doing so.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Agreed, but I don't like hearing how great he is from HIM!!!!


(But IF he is so great, why wouldn't he have time to tuck in behind Kimi through the chicane and make a better move later? Answer - his GREAT choice was to cut the chicane because it was easier!)

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I wonder why people have so much of a problem with that ? if he says about himself he's great and he shows it on the racetrack...what's wrong with that ? I would maybe agree with you if he said it and never finished in the points..and even than...I wouldn't care anyway....each one has his own personality....

+ I always heard a "champion" has to be some kind of an "asshole" anyway ! in any sports !

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Does the same go for Alonso?

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yep why not ? I have much respect for every racedriver for what he does on the racetrack....

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

yep why not ? I have much respect for every racedriver for what they do on the racetrack....

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Good, It's nice to find someone who is consistent in their opinions.

(p.s. How about Ide?) ;)

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

+ I always heard a "champion" has to be some kind of an "asshole" anyway ! in any sports !

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I take it you don't know who the 2007 World drivers champion is ;)

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Fact is Lewis is great in those conditions. He is also great on the brakes - late breaking and maintaining control under heavy breaking.

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It's the way you say it though :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's the way you say it though :)

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Actually,, it's more the way Lewis says it!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Good, It's nice to find someone who is consistent in their opinions.

(p.s. How about Ide?) ;)

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well it doesn't mean i always agree with the actions they do...even if it's Lewis...But it has to be something really really really bad before a driver would loose my respect !

um...what you mean by that p.s. ? *scratching head*

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I take it you don't know who the 2007 World drivers champion is ;)

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u mean this one ? ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scoDILMYeQ8

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

well it doesn't mean i always agree with the actions they do...even if it's Lewis...But it has to be something really really really bad before a driver would loose my respect !

um...what you mean by that p.s. ? *scratching head*

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Just a bit of light-heartedness (after all, it's 2:00a.m. here).

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Agreed, but I don't like hearing how great he is from HIM!!!!

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Exactly!

I mainly follow the WRC and to me the picture of perfection is Sebastien Loeb. God like driving skills yet he always shows respect for other drivers and lets his driving do the talking for him rather than his big mouth. You're about 100 times more likely to hear his opponents praising him than you are to see him giving himself a pat on the back for being so great and Sebastien Loeb IS good enough to get away with being a little arrogant. I also think Hamilton's arrogance shows through in the way he drives and this is why he gets penalised. Not some Max-Ron vendetta but an extremely talented young man's disregard for the rules and his fellow competitor. I'll even go as far to say that Michael for his unsportsmanlike behaviour at various times through his career comes across as a nicer and more genuine person than Lewis.

Perhaps it's down to the fact that he was brought up from a very young age to be an F1 driver and he was never going to be a pastry chef, a policeman or a teacher. Perhaps daddy and Ron instilled a sense of self belief that was perhaps just a little too strong. He just seems to be this unwavering belief that what he does it always right or if it's wrong that it's not worthy of penalty. Perhaps that's got nothing to do with it but I just don't like the way he's acted since about half way through last season. It's sad because I really quite liked him when he first came along last year......

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

Maybe someone earlier was right.....and i don't get it..I really don't get it there's people out there that say what lewis did was worth a penalty..But what Kimi does isn't....

why did Lewis and Felipe made it true that corner in a proper way ?...Just like Lewis..Kimi overshot the corner...and instead of hitting the brakes...(as Lewis should have donne at the chicane ..right ?) he went of track..keeping the pace....ending up way closer behind Massa than when he would have braked..loosing speed..but taking the corner in a correct way !

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mmmm.... you have a point in a way, but I think Kimi was too far behind Massa to believe he gained an advantage by going off the track a mile before he overtook him...

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Actually,, it's more the way Lewis says it!

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That's what I was saying :p

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Originally Posted by HereIam

mmmm.... you have a point in a way, but I think Kimi was too far behind Massa to believe he gained an advantage by going off the track a mile before he overtook him...

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ok....what I mean is..if he hit the brakes..to make it properly true the first corner..he would have lost way more speed..and so..he wouldn't been so close behind massa as he was now...and it would have taken him way longer than a mile to make the pass..not ?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

So perhaps Hamilton shouldn't have been in a position to be squeezed by the Ferrari in the first place.

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ah, yes, I've never seen Lewis driving others off the track...

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I take it you don't know who the 2007 World drivers champion is ;)

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or even worse..this one ! hehe ;-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMBP1T_jw5w

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Agreed, but I don't like hearing how great he is from HIM!!!!


(But IF he is so great, why wouldn't he have time to tuck in behind Kimi through the chicane and make a better move later? Answer - his GREAT choice was to cut the chicane because it was easier!)

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Haha, I'm not a Lewis fan, but I love to see a driver so outspoken.

We moan F1 is so professional and PR related, but I think its good that a driver breaks that mould. Its entertaining :)

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

ok....what I mean is..if he hit the brakes..to make it properly true the first corner..he would have lost way more speed..and so..he wouldn't been so close behind massa as he was now...and it would have taken him way longer than a mile to make the pass..not ?

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yes, maybe, but the difference is that, by going off, Kimi didn't overtake Massa straightaway... he passed him a mile after that just because he was way faster than Felipe... I don't see how you can be penalised because you lose ground by going off and, if you hadn't, you would have lost a bit more... Kimi was really quite a long way behind Massa after going off... this is really taking it to an extreme. But as I said before, I can see your point...

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Originally Posted by HereIam

yes, maybe, but the difference is that, by going off, Kimi didn't overtake Massa straightaway... he passed him a mile after that just because he was way faster than Felipe... I don't see how you can be penalised because you lose ground by going off and, if you hadn't, you would have lost a bit more... Kimi was really quite a long way behind Massa after going off... this is really taking it to an extreme. But as I said before, I can see your point...

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ya let's keep it there.... ;-)

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

or even worse..this one ! hehe ;-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMBP1T_jw5w

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Are you kidding?

If the mother wasnt so desperate to get an autograph then she wouldn'tve bowled her child over. If the worst dirt you can dig is Kimi pushing someone who was in his personal space, then I don't see how it justifies him as an arsehole. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Are you kidding?

If the mother wasnt so desperate to get an autograph then she wouldn'tve bowled her child over. If the worst dirt you can dig is Kimi pushing someone who was in his personal space, then I don't see how it justifies him as an arsehole. Sorry.

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lol..well dunno..I personaly would have checked with that kid...as I was directly or inderectly involved in the incident...But instead he just moved on !

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Are you kidding?

If the mother wasnt so desperate to get an autograph then she wouldn'tve bowled her child over. If the worst dirt you can dig is Kimi pushing someone who was in his personal space, then I don't see how it justifies him as an arsehole. Sorry.

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I don't get the whole autograph thing. I've got a t-shirt which I got autographed by all the WRC works drivers in 2001, 4 20x30@ photos of mine which I got autographed by driver and co-driver and a poster autographed by Chris Atkinson just so I could have a chat to him.

I have no interest in having the same poster or photo that thousands of other people have had autographed.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Are you kidding?

If the mother wasnt so desperate to get an autograph then she wouldn'tve bowled her child over. If the worst dirt you can dig is Kimi pushing someone who was in his personal space, then I don't see how it justifies him as an arsehole. Sorry.

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lol It actualy was more mend as a joke yes....as a reaction to your reply on my "each champion has to be a bit of an asshole"

But as you seems to take it serious.....i will give you a serious answer..Maybe He could have turned back and check with the kid as he was direct or indirectly involved with the accident no ?...But instead he just moved on !

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Are you kidding?

If the mother wasnt so desperate to get an autograph then she wouldn'tve bowled her child over. If the worst dirt you can dig is Kimi pushing someone who was in his personal space, then I don't see how it justifies him as an arsehole. Sorry.

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You hit the nail on the the head. But hey if you really want to cause trouble, try kissing Kimi (or any Finn) on the cheek like in southern europe, then you're in real trouble.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I take it you don't know who the 2007 World drivers champion is ;)

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An alcholic? A marshal shover? Media abuser? A real stand up guy then :p :

You asked for it ;)

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

wonder what today's stewards would have made of this, then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCqY8Wg5So

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Was there anyone cutting a chicane in that video? I certainly didn't see any. So why is this relevant to what we are debating here?