Is global warming/climate change a crock?

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Considering the rapid growth of machine powered industry once it started which I peg at about 1880, our technology levels, and the need to provide for our populations, overall I think we've done a fair job of being prudent. In the US, the EPA really started getting involved in emission and pollution matters in the early 1970's. Many foreign cars disappeared from the American markets during the 70's because they couldn't meet emissions standards. Freon 12 was banned in the US because of the hole in the ozone layer controversy, although it was still availabe in much of the world. Chemicals that powered products in spray cans were banned or heavily restricted for use for the same ozone hole. Much of Europe went nuclear for power generation. Yeah, I think we've done a pretty good job as our technology allows us to understand the problems. We cannot reasonably foresee every consequence to every action.

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Much of what you say is true however, a few points: Many cars were banned from the US in 70's because of emissions standards and fuel economy legislation. Unfortunately these laws were scrapped by Reagan and now the average US car is less fuel efficient than a model T (because of the popularity of SUV's).

I think you will also find that most of the power supplied in Europe is still coal fired. Nuclear energy is too expensive to produce most of the power needed in Europe or the rest of the world.

I feel strongly about climate change and environemtal issues, I dont know what has been said in the thred so far, but I think its genuine, and a potentiall hugely destructive problem. Just my op.

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Originally Posted by Pawprint

I feel strongly about climate change and environemtal issues, I dont know what has been said in the thred so far, but I think its genuine, and a potentiall hugely destructive problem. Just my op.

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Go back and read the thread. It's actually been a pretty good one for us.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Go back and read the thread. It's actually been a pretty good one for us.

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So you are now dismissing the sincerely-held views of others on the grounds of some perceived superiority in a thread on an internet forum?

It had generally been quite polite up until that point.

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Originally Posted by rah

Much of what you say is true however, a few points: Many cars were banned from the US in 70's because of emissions standards and fuel economy legislation. Unfortunately these laws were scrapped by Reagan and now the average US car is less fuel efficient than a model T (because of the popularity of SUV's).

I think you will also find that most of the power supplied in Europe is still coal fired. Nuclear energy is too expensive to produce most of the power needed in Europe or the rest of the world.

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I was under the impression that Europe and especially France had quite a few nuclear plants. Your coal plants should be or could be burning pretty clean though.

There are other environmental/health issues I left out like getting lead out of paints and gasoline.

Reading back, I should also have pointed out that most European auto manufacturers could have met the emissions standards, but to do so and put the stuff in cars that Americans want, like air conditioning, would have required investment in larger engines. Considering the Japanese were beginning their sweep of the American market, it probably didn't make financial sense for the European companies to compete. American manufacturers started loading cars up with all kinds of devices that killed gas mileage. Honda came in with their beautiful little CCVC engine and got low emissions and great mileage without all the gimmicks.

I do think that once a consensus is reached on an issue, the industrialized nations do a pretty good job in dealing with them.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So you are now dismissing the sincerely-held views of others on the grounds of some perceived superiority in a thread on an internet forum?

It had generally been quite polite up until that point.

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No. What I meant was that for us, a collective group, you, me and everyone involved, it has been a good, polite thread, with honestly exchanged views on both sides.

In other words, it hasn't broken down into one of our furniture-smashing bar room free-for-alls.

I meant it as a compliment to all those who have participated.

Even you, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Considering the Japanese were beginning their sweep of the American market, it probably didn't make financial sense for the European companies to compete. American manufacturers started loading cars up with all kinds of devices that killed gas mileage. Honda came in with their beautiful little CCVC engine and got low emissions and great mileage without all the gimmicks.

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I think you're giving the European car makers too much credit with the exception of the Germans. In the 1970s, the era you're talking about, the British, French and Italian car makers were in no position to catch the Japanese in terms of clean burn technology either financially or technologically. Also most of them were facing such big problems with industrial action that merely getting cars out of the factory door was a major triumph let alone getting them past US emissions standards. End result? Possibly billions of dollars worth of lost sales after having to pull out of the US market and being locked out for the last three decades. Not all major industries are capable of reacting quickly enough to changes in legislation, however far ahead they learn of them.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

No. What I meant was that for us, a collective group, you, me and everyone involved, it has been a good, polite thread, with honestly exchanged views on both sides.

In other words, it hasn't broken down into one of our furniture-smashing bar room free-for-alls.

I meant it as a compliment to all those who have participated.

Even you, my friend.

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Ah, forgive me. Apologies, and no hard feelings.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I think you're giving the European car makers too much credit with the exception of the Germans. In the 1970s, the era you're talking about, the British, French and Italian car makers were in no position to catch the Japanese in terms of clean burn technology either financially or technologically. Also most of them were facing such big problems with industrial action that merely getting cars out of the factory door was a major triumph let alone getting them past US emissions standards. End result? Possibly billions of dollars worth of lost sales after having to pull out of the US market and being locked out for the last three decades. Not all major industries are capable of reacting quickly enough to changes in legislation, however far ahead they learn of them.

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A very good assessment.

Your mention of Germany (West Germany, to be more precise) is very worthwhile, because the same could be said of many of the small environmental initiatives to do with recycling, alternative energy, etc that would be seen as revolutionary in many other countries, like the UK, but which became commonplace in West Germany years ago. They are now a part of life there, and no great burden on anyone. Many other nations would do well to go some way towards embracing Germany's all-round environmental awareness, which is in no way obsessive — this is, after all, a country that certainly used to have one of the highest rates of car ownership per capita in Europe. Yet, still, people often choose to take the train...

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Ah, forgive me. Apologies, and no hard feelings.

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One of the drawbacks of communicating in text is that lack of voice tone that gives one an insight into how a comment is meant.

Aside from a few absolute, fulltime knotheads that used to be here all the time, I don't have any hard feelings for anybody on this forum. I even like Eki.

No problems Mr. Dunnell and what it's worth I'm begining to explore the CO2 kind of thing. I'm not convinced, but I'm willing to look with an open mind.