Yes, but now we are talking about that strange decision of stewards. They are writing there that time card was handed over in a regroup. Which is a lie. It was handed over before regroup, before time control...Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
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Yes, but now we are talking about that strange decision of stewards. They are writing there that time card was handed over in a regroup. Which is a lie. It was handed over before regroup, before time control...Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
I dont agree with last part of your sentece. When regulations talks about time card, they are writing about giving it in time control (start, stop). There is nothing what should be done meanwhile. Of course, if nobody brought that time card to them and Ogier should be in time control without time card, it is very simple - he cannot continue. But forgetting the card in previous TC and bringing it by another driver is different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I should say they were the only two motivated bringing maximum speed on that one. No other fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Of course it is important, because the digital system doesn't work at all. At least there are correct times.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
it's completely Ogier problems how return a timecard, but... somebody at stage-end TC told to Tanak to deliver Ogier time-card.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
It will be clearly that Ogier by car or foot goes back and took time-card back. But it cause a some TC late penalty. But now it must be an exclusion
You can't drive back to TC. That's not allowed.
Great rally, good fight even in the last day, that's something very rare.
About Ogier I don't think he should get a penalty, he didn't break any rules...
Don`t be stupid and advocate rallying on paper. We have an interetsing championship in our hands, all of them, especially no. 1 and 2. gave us a hell of a fight, wasteing lots of effort, money and risking their lives. 10k itself is quite absurd for something not even in the regulations and looks more like blackmailing, but it is what it is..
Not always correct times in time cards... But it is important document for the crew to know correctly time of last TC/start and liaison time to next TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESTR
Not everything hi-tech or digital is absolute win. And for example, we have few crews here in Czech who are not able to fill the entry form electronically and are still sending it hand-written by mail. Of course, usually older people...
For me, exclusion only if Ogier dont present time card at TC 19A. But he was in time with time card on that time control. So from this point of view, no reason for exclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
Plan A. It's not allowed to give any assistance, correct? If Tanak helps him - it's an exclusionQuote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
Plan B: drive back for own time-card. but
it's an exclusionQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
So car #1 can't be checked-in into TC19A. It's mean - retirement.
I am not sure "it is not allowed to give any assistance". Check the regulations and tell me which article exactly was broken. He was penalised for breaking article 2.13, but I think nothing happened wrong according to this article.Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
exclusively for NOT
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a749dce205.jpg
What? I'm pretty sure Ogier is glad the punishment is only 10k without time or points penalty. If it wasn't for Tanak, Ogier wouldn't had been able to finish the rally. Maybe the stewards would have found a way to allow him to finish with a time penalty, who knows...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
its not clear if it was a driving error,or a mechanical failure of the arm.
https://media.citroenracing.com/en/c...-wins-sardinia
"2.13 PROHIBITED SERVICEQuote:
Originally Posted by KKS
The use or receipt by the crew of any manufactured materials (solid or liquid, unless supplied by the
organisers), spare parts, tools or equipment other than those carried in the competing car or the presence of
team personnel as defined in Art. 48.2."
Ogier has been making 10k a week for years so I'm sure he's just happy it stayed with that
I doubt these fines are paid by the drivers...Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Again it should have been an exclusion...
just put italians on my "nations and people i really really really dislike" list...
For sure not. There is for sure no reason for exclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
So what is it actually used for then? At least at world rally level?Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
I get that it has meaning in some local rally without fancy equipment etc...
Have you ever done any rally? Time card is basic focument on every rally, it works everywhere in same way. In some local rally and same also in WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
What is the PRECISE regulation regarding the handling of the time cards?
From the two rules that Julian Porter read word-for-word on All Live, there is absolutely no penalty that can be legally justified. The time card was handed to the start control on time, and no external object, solid or liquid, that was not manufactured by the organizers was given to the crew.
I know that stewards and drivers are maybe not the sharpest legal minds, but this 10,000 euro fine strikes me as arbitrary, capricious, unjustified, and unacceptable given the letter of the rules.
Anyone have a link to the stewards decision? I'd like to go over it with a fine-toothed comb.
Ed: found it. This is completely absurd. Not only should there be no penalty, but the three stewards should never be allowed to steward again, because they appear to have no concept of legal reasoning.
The stewards decision, under the section "Reason", reads as follows:
"WRC Art. 2.13 clearly states that the "... receipt by the crew of any manufactured materials (solid or liquid..." is not allowed."
Well, actually, no motherfucker. It states that "The use or receipt by the crew of any manutfactured materials (solid or liquid, unless supplied by the organizers)..." is prohibited. Nice try leaving that part out, as if nobody would consult the fucking rulebook. Obviously the timecard is supplied by the organizers.
The stewards' decision continues, "the time card was handed over at a regroup, which appears to have been permitted under WRC Art. 48.2.2 unless it is a regroup before a Power Stage, which was the case here"
So let's consult the rulebook again. Rule 48.2.2 reads, "The passing of food, drink, clothing and information (data card, road book, etc.) to or from the crew when located in the zone is permitted:
-in tyre fitting zones, in light fitting zones from the personnel authorised in the zone only;
-in service parks, at regroups or whilst the cars are in a media zone."
However, I cannot find any reference to not being allowed to receive materials at a regroup specifically before a power stage. I don't know where this is coming from.
Once again, I can see absolutely zero justification for Ogier/Ingrassia being handed ANY penalty whatsoever, suspended or otherwise. I hope they will appeal and I hope that the FIA will clean up this legal mess that they created through their complete incompetence. But since the FIA are clearly borderline retarded, I don't hold out much hope.
there is more going on, 10000€ fine to Hyundai for a wrong photo in the homologation form of the R5: rallyitaliasardegna.com/?ddownload=1767
those italians are going to erase their country's debt at such pace....Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ast
There is reference of that, just article 13.3.2, characteristics of the power stage: "Be preceded by Media Zone and a regroup of at least 30 minutes. Arts. 42.5.2 and 48.2.2 do not apply for this Media Zone and this regroup."Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnybobiche
I think the fine is weird. Normally, when they judge it's illegal assistance, the only possible penalty is exclusion. I'm not saying it is, it's a grey zone. And despite being a Neuville fan I'm happy his not excluded. But they don't have to state he breached that rule but not exclude him as they should do with every crew breaching that rule.
You mean those real Italian stewards, like Waltraud Wünsch and Kai Tarkiainen?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Says the Greek guy. What was the proverb with the stones and the glass houses again?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Thanks for the reference. It indeed says that 42.2.2 does not apply for the media zone and regroup prior to a power stage. However, that only confuses matters more. Since 48.2.2 is an article that sets out constraints on when and by whom food, drink, clothing, and information can be passed to and from the crew, a strict reading of 13.3.2 would mean that 42.2.2 does not apply at this time and that there are no constraints on passing food drink clothing and information to or from the crew during this regroup. It is unclear what the intent of 13.3.2 actually is, but ambiguous wording can only be the fault of the FIA.Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ast
Moreover, it seems to me the stop control made a mistake handing the time card to Tanak, since Ogier could have realized his mistake or been informed by the team (who saw it on live TV) and turned around to go get it. Once it was given to another competitor, that was out of Ogier's control.
At stagend where Ogier just drove off, he must have been given a message over the team comm system. He suddenly blew off the interviewer and just drove off.
Maybe something to do with tyrechange or something else that had to be checked before the next stage.
Have the team explained something on why he just had to go asap?
My video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT3F_nnaiWY
The rule itself states:Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnybobiche
"The use or receipt by the crew of any manufactured materials (solid or liquid, unless supplied by the
organisers), spare parts, tools or equipment other than those carried in the competing car or the presence of
team personnel as defined in Art. 48.2."
What the article says is this: You're never allowed to receive any good, solid or liquid, unless the good is supplied (i.e. given) to you by the organisers. In this case the first requirement is met due to a time card being a solid material. So far, so good. Hence the time card could only have been legally given to Ingrassia by the organiser, not by Tänak.
In other words: The rule has nothing to do with the fact that the time cards are issued by the organisers, but the fact of the matter is whether the time card in question is supplied (i.e. given) to a competitor by anyone who isn't an organiser.
Theoretically, if the time card had been given to Ingrassia by a steward (who went to the next time control by foot or bike), the acceptance of the time card would have been legal as per Art. 2.13. Since it was given ("supplied", cf. the rules) by Tänak, the reception constituted a breach of the rules.
Therefore, the decision of the stewards is completely in accordance with Art. 2.13 of the rule book.
That's completely wrong interpretation. "Supplied" != "Handed" (received by hand). The rule is unclear in the second case, so it can be interpreted according to someone's desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyace
It has been stated earlier in this thread that it's not allowed to drive back into TC. Probably they decided to give the time card to Tanak as a mean to let Ogier continue the rally, without prematurely ending the fight, since Ogier would have been excluded without time card. I think if it was a random WRC2 driver to have forgotten the time card, nothing like this would have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnybobiche
The International Sporting Code carries this item in the Penalties section
12.1.1.i Failure to follow the instructions of the relevant officials for the safe and orderly conduct of the Event.
It could be argued that Tanak was following following instructions in taking the card and giving it to Ogier.In other words both parties were doing as they were told and had they not done so then they would have both been penalised
Article that mentioned in decision - Art 2.13Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
If that time card was brought back by a marshal or any other "organiser" people - no problem. But it was returned by Ott Tanak, who not an organiser. So Ogier receipt a manufactured solid material. And it was prohibited.Quote:
2.13 PROHIBITED SERVICEThe use or receipt by the crew of any manufactured materials (solid or liquid, unless supplied by theorganisers), spare parts, tools or equipment other than those carried in the competing car or the presence ofteam personnel as defined in Art. 48.2.