;-) thx...not easy to find people on here that are pro the Lewis penalty but refuse to recognise what Kimi did there was just the same !Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
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;-) thx...not easy to find people on here that are pro the Lewis penalty but refuse to recognise what Kimi did there was just the same !Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
Not sure if this has been posted already but the TopGear website has some interesting videos.. This is one of them...
http://sundayafternoonclub.blogs.top...n-gp-big-schu/
Shows a certain Ferrari from a previous season jumping a chicane and getting an advantage... an advantage that was not relinquished....
well, it has been posted before, but daniel, tamburello and ioan think it's a completely different situation with no relevance to this scenario.
but none of them have offered an explanation as to why that might be.
Gotta love the irony... Autosport's front cover inevitably features the pass and a (very balanced, despite the headline) feature on it inside... and also has its Italian GP preview, illustrated by a picture of last year's start - with Lewis Hamilton being forced onto the run-off at that first corner...
Oh yes, and expect that first corner at Monza to be even more of a cause celebre than usual this year...
yes, although cutting a chicane might seem a bit more serious than going off the circuit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
well, it has been posted before, but daniel, tamburello and ioan think it's a completely different situation with no relevance to this scenario.
but none of them have offered an explanation as to why that might be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
well the rules been shown here about it make no difference...
hereiam..these are the rules I mend...
***30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.
b) Other than by driving on the track, Competitors are not permitted to attempt to alter the grip of any part of the track surface***
do you know where I can see this incident? I'm not sure if we are talking about the same one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Can someone post a video? I'd like to see it an offer an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
here ya go...Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNAB6xIbx8
But, if there was a gravel trap, or rumble strips or a tree etc, then he would have been out :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
isn't that the excuse used against Lewis :D
Ok someone's posted a video. Look at how many corners went past before Kimi overtook Massa. If Lewis had merely left his attacking one corner later I've no doubt he would have overtaken him. I certainly don't see how with the kerb, the grass and the obvious lack of traction (Kimi nearly loses it twice!) how he gained from that incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
Knockie. No one said Lewis got the penalty because if there'd been a tree or whatever there he would have retired.
There were plenty of other occasions when the car leading went off at a chicane and maintained position before then. The key thing is the word "leading", since it would be difficult to prove that a driver that was leading had gained an advantage since he already had the advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
If I recall, it was the fact that Michael cut the chicane on a couple of laps that was the most contentious issue, as in the thing he should have been punished for.
But, say for the sake of debate, if the stewards at the Hungaroring in 2006 made a mistake, as was the general feeling at the time (not mine) is it not correct for the FIA to have learnt from that mistake and to have acted accordingly at Spa 2008?
Or is that just unreasonable?
Very good point :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Maybe someone earlier was right.....and i don't get it..I really don't get it there's people out there that say what lewis did was worth a penalty..But what Kimi does isn't....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
why did Lewis and Felipe made it true that corner in a proper way ?...Just like Lewis..Kimi overshot the corner...and instead of hitting the brakes...(as Lewis should have donne at the chicane ..right ?) he went of track..keeping the pace....ending up way closer behind Massa than when he would have braked..loosing speed..but taking the corner in a correct way !
well, MS never allowed PDLR (who had overtaken him using the inside line) track position in front after MS protected his position by cutting the chicane.
LH DID allow KR back in front (after using the escape road to avoid a collision), so Tamburello, your point seems invalid.
because we didn't penalise somebody for doing the wrong thing, now we shoud penalise somebody for trying to do the right thing?
if there is a point at all, it should be that the FIA needs to clarify:
a: exactly what, in future, will be deemed to be redressing such issues.
b: with whom, in such times as these, can a team manager talk to confirm such measures have been met.
c: what precedents should everybody follow? the unpunished actions of a multiple world champion and probably the greatest racing talent who ever lived or the punished actions of the rising star who allowed his opponent to drive back past him while he was returning to the track?
because, if you don't answer the last question (and the rules are still the same as the ones in place in the MS incident), then everybody on the grid will be lost in such circumstances and we'll have another reason to add (aero, engines etc) to explain F1's lack of overtaking.
c:
You sure Pedro was in front? Not according to Ron, he wouldn't have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
It seems that Ron Dennis felt on Sunday that Lewis was in front before the corner despite being on the outside -
"I think, first of all, Lewis was ahead at the chicane and he got pushed wide" http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43849
So why should Michael be different?
It would seem, therefore, that even the Mclaren boss would have to say that Michael at the Hungaroring was in front. He certainly was as they entered the breaking zone. He was not the one attempting a pass, that's for sure.
Seems that the FIA are not the only ones who can be tarnished with that brush, eh, Mr Dennis?
You said it, Michael was protecting his position. That means he already had an advantage, namely that he was leading. Please define how you gain an advantage when an advantage is what you already have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
Forgive me, but I'm not sure how you can protect a position but not be in front, so your claim doesn't appear valid itself.
Trying to do the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
Had Lewis & Mclaren tried harder, and evidently because they asked the Race Director twice then they must have been in considerable doubt themselves as to if they had tried hard enough, then they wouldn't be in such a situation.
If there are similarities between the Schumi incident and the Lewis incident it is, in my opinion, that both seem fallible to the same failing.
Namely that there are times with both of these talented racers when they should have recognised that the racing had to stop and they should have recognised that more acknowledgement of another driver was required.
In my opinion, Lewis showed Schumi-like disregard for his fellow competitor at Spa. It's almost as if both Schumi & Lewis cannot recognise their own faults and don't see anything outside of their own bubble.
Which I don't think is a bad thing, per se, in a racing driver and despite his dreadful choice in teams and mentors, is the thing I do admire about Lewis.
But, in situations like Spa, it can also be his downfall. Just like, with Michael, it could be his.
Whats unfair about it? He got ahead of Massa under braking before being walloped and thus forced to go over the chicane.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstillhere
His "habit" is that he is probably the best 'braker' currently in F1. Its true what you say about perspectives though, it would be pretty funny to manipulate footage of unidentified incidents frame by frame and swop the Ferraris & Macs over and listen to everyones biased opinion change when they were told that the cars/drivers were switched. :D
It is interesting to see that Massa, Trulli, Alonso, Heidfeld, Bourdais, Rosberg and Fisichella all think the penalty is deserved (some say it is harsh though). I think they have very valid opinions on this matter, but I guess that depends if you are a biased McLaren/Hamilton supporter or not.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...11191346.shtml
yes he was in front..I already posted evidence of that on here tamburello...but here it is again...Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/pop...144:39843&S=F1
is that so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/...el-xp-0807.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/...el-xp-0808.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/f1/...el-xp-0810.jpg
the only picture where he is in front is the last one...
So therefore, working on that basis, so was Michael.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Difference is that Lewis hadn't been defending his position when he went over the chicane. Lewis hadn't been in front until he fecked his braking up, he was trying to gain an advantage whereas Michael had...for the best part of 25 laps, not 25mm anyway, already had the lead.
Anyone want to explain how somebody leading and therefore in possesion of the "advantage" can then gain the "advantage"?
How can you gain that which you already have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktory
you should read :
I was refering to this --> *It seems that Ron Dennis felt on Sunday that Lewis was in front before the corner despite being on the outside *
are you saying the pic i showed doesn't show Lewis as being in front ?
Thanks for that. That certainly does put a different perspective on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktory
not at all..as Ron said before the corner..The pic i showed was before the corner...these aren'tQuote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
wait wait wait..are you saying now a car in the lead is allowed to overshoot a chicane while the car trying to pass is not ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
In Ms case..true...he was maybe in front..the nose of his car maybe...but by cutting the chicane he was a wayyy more ahead than before the chicane..so no advantage ?
Yes, and "before" the corner Michael was in front at the Hungaroring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
But, like I said, the difference is that Michael had been in front for several laps and was therefore leading.
Michael was still leading when he cut the chicane.
He therefore held the advantage before and during the Hungaroring chicane.
So, I ask again, any chance of anyone explaining how you can gain what you already have?
That's how it has always been non-enforced in the past, if I recall correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
I don't recall anybody being told to forfeit a place he had never lost, but I do know of plenty of occasions when a driver has had to give a place back he had gained.
so the way you explain it...gaining advantage only is based on the position you are in ? as one can clearly see MS leads was bigger after he cut the chicane than it was goin in the chicane..But that doesn't count as advantage ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
By George, he's got it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
than why the heck are we discussing Lewis penalty ?..as Kimi was in the lead before the chicane and still was after the chicane..if distance gained doesn't count for you...Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7611152.stm
a very good summary of the situation here - i think i'm leaning towards the side that i can see an arguement for Lewis being found to have gained (a very slight) advantage, but that the punishment in no way befits the crime in this case.
the incident is so marginal we can all argue all day whether the advantage gained was given back, given back enough, or not goven back for long enough, but the strength of the punishment, for me, is the bigger issue - despite a potential advantage being retained or gained or whatever, there seems to be little disagreement that Hamilton would and should have won the race given the conditions at the end of the race (no sleight on Kimi or Massa, purely a product of McLarens keeping heat in Tyres better), regardless of the incident and therefore the penalty is particularly harsh, but by the letter of the FIA's (rather silly) laws, the 25 second penalty was the least harsh available to the stewards
Tamburello. You're better off ignoring him :) I've ignored him and I'm feeling better already! No need for those silly blood tests :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
What an excellent piece :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
The thing is the punishment MUST always outweigh the possible gain. If it doesn't then people will just offend and if they get let off they've gained and if they get penalised they're back where they started. Yes Lewis would have got past had things gone as we expect but there should be a penalty for this sort of thing and if you can gain a place from it then you should lose at least 2 places for doing it so a message is sent that it won't be tolerated.
As my friend Sebastien Bourdais and myself have mentioned, Lewis has previous for this so surely given his history then I think a fairly harsh penalty is right.
People are only kicking up a fuss about this because it has offended their sense of natural justice as the article says. If this were happening to someone further down the field no one would care. In fact if it was that Alonso whose fans are such horrible horrible people then all these people who have such a strong sense of justice would be poo-pooing Fernando for unsportsmanlike behaviour and cheating and so on and taking delight in that dirty cheating Spaniard getting what was coming to him.
Lewis may just be the most skilled driver out there and the fastest driver but if he doesn't pull his head out of his own arse and realise that he's special only in the eyes of himself, his dad and his legions of adoring fans then he's going to continue to get penalties like this which he doesn't need to be getting. Think about it...... if he'd not crashed into Kimi he'd have had lets say 6 points minimum? Magny Cours when he passed Vettel? Can't remember what position he was in but lets take 25 seconds off his time for the stop and go and he would have another 4 points and Spa he would have another 4 points as well. So that's 14 points that Lewis has lost out on for being a little bit loose in the brain department.
Tell you what if Massa or Kimi win the title over Lewis by anything less than 15 points they should offer the trophy to Lewis on one condition .... he go on the BBC 2 at about 8:55 on a Sunday night and say "I'm a clot and I ruined my championship and I've WON!"
Hey that could be a TV show *strokes chin* :cool:
I am a fan of lewis but at least I have respect for all other drivers and don't insult them !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Are you lot still arguing about this? :p :
Reading the quotes from today's press conference did make me change my mind for a moment but re-watching the replays I still think Lewis was pushed wide and no option but to cut the second part of the chicane else there would've been contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
What Lewis is guilty of is 'improperly' conceding his position. Maybe the stewards/Charly Whiting are partly to blame because they should've addressed this issue properly in the driver briefings or its going out of the other ear when you're in the heat of the battle.