Both series have been on different sides of the same roller coaster ride since 1996. It's been creaking for years and been patched with balsa wood...
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Both series have been on different sides of the same roller coaster ride since 1996. It's been creaking for years and been patched with balsa wood...
Once again ChaimWitz has tried to steer the discussion in a cerebral direction. Alas, very few are paying attention and can see the wood for the trees.
Therein lies the problem with AOWR. The way posters behave on this forum is like a microcosm of the way the leaders/owners of the IRL and CCWS behave. Mine is better than yours, blah, blah, blah.
In the meantime, NASCAR has gone racing ahead into the distance, barely a speck on the horizon, and the ALMS has just zoomed past leaving dust trails in the collective faces of the IRL and CCWS.
Jim Strong has put forward some interesting and wonderful ideas that are devoid of ego and self interest. Unfortunately, the powers that be of our favourite series, don't seem to be able to forget the past and look to the future with optimism, forgiveness and not a little humility.
However, as Open Wheel fans we all live in hope!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
Very true, and I have said this for years, and so has Robin Miller, that the only real winner in this conflict has been NASCAR. And as you say, ALMS is actually doing what open wheel should be, and generating new teams and sponsors; and Grand Am is also creating buzz, as some of the world's finest drivers, from Formula 1 to local short track stars, are coming to compete in the Rolex 24, which has now become the defacto IROC.
Sanguin, I wonder just how you claim to know that Champ Car gets a sanction fee for all their races... I thought you were just a fan. Regardless, this claim does not jive with what I have been hearing from those inside a number of ChampCar's 2008 events. I am told that many are not paying a sanction fee or only a very discounted fee where the risk is in Champ Car's corner. Given the pattern of the past few years cannot be good for Champ Car's bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
As for the ALMS paddock, I beg to differ. It has very cool cars, professional presentation, famous teams and a real buzz going on. There is true optimism there that I don't see in either the Champ Car paddock or the Indy Car Series paddock. There is also far less B.S. and justification of things that are unjustifiable going on—despite the presence of a viable competitor in the form of the Grand-Am.
Which sponsor would that be?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
This letter that Gordon printed has all the hallmarks of things said here and elsewhere for quite some time. The problem with it is that it has no teeth. We the fans have no REAL way to hold "...king George" or the Amigo's feet to the fire. Oh sure we could all just refuse to go to the races. Like THAT is going to happen.
The only players with any hope of being able to pull this off are the team owners. It is why like the author of the letter, I have been calling for an team owners revolt.
Gary
Aren't you the one who said they would never drop San Jose for Laguna, because San Jose was going to be another Long Beach, and nothing ever draws flies at Laguna but the bikes?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Frankly, I don't think you know, because I don't think the decision has been made yet.
Two quotes from that great American "race" fan Eldrigidge Cleaver, come to mind when reading these forums:
"You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem."
"The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less."
Have some people here forgotten this was once "one" sport?
Have they also forgotten that this has been a business competition based upon differences in business ideals and business models?
In the end, the IRL is becoming much more CART like (or is it lites?) in its make up... while the CCWS becomes less so. One series is more promoter centric and the other is more entrant centric. One series is likely far more sustainable and the other is likely not.
Business, like racing has a finish line. People do look at the results and ask themselves "who won?" Sometimes, like in racing, the winner looks like it has been trough a war and will require a complete rebuild.
I think the hard truth is that we are there now and the IRL is limping to the white flag lap while the CCWS is slowing to a crawl with smoke trailing behind it.
When the checkered flag falls soon, I have little doubt that the IRL car will be in the winner's circle. Too bad the grandstands will be less than half full and the TV time window will have been exceeded so few will notice or care. There will of course be a few thousand fanatical CC fans rioting outside the winners circle crying "foul" but the race will have been run and won and the results will stand. Business is business and is the most unforgiving competition outside of armed conflict and open wheel racing itself.
So, back to the topic of this tread: what happens next?
Do the Amigos cut a deal now with The Grandson and salvage some of their investment, their key events., Mazda Atlantics and Cosworth or do they play to their own egos (and those of the fanatical haters) and drive the series into oblivion?
My hope is for the former while they still have a hint of leverage left.
Well, next seems to be that Jani is "out."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64808
P.S. -- As far as Strong's letter goes that Kirby put up on his site, what elements are in that letter that haven't been suggested by somebody on one of these forums multiple times before? What's new about any of that? What hasn't been argued and/or discussed about this on any of these forums before? I see absolutely nothing new or exciting about that proposition.
And, according to Cavin, GF has been spotted at the IMS offices...will wonders never cease :)Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Maybe GF has made an offer to purchase IMS?
Now that would be a great rumor.
I don't think Gerry has that kind of money to throw around. Last appraisal of IMS and its properties is reported to be $3.6 billion. That's with a "B."
That would be quite a rumor. Or how about this one...GF wants to sell his race team to TG. Or this one...GF wants to sell his share of CC to TG. Now THAT would be a rumor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
We can go ON AND ON and speculate the reasoning behind their meeting. Until then, its ALL speculation.
Speculation on this, the Champ Car board, is only allowed when it is good for the IRL and bad towards Champ Car.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
Your version of a rumor against Champ Car was not a surprise. As a matter of fact you would have disappointed many on this the Champ Car Forum had you not responded in the manner that you did.
Maybe he was there to visit his cousin. You did know that Forsythe's cousin is Laura George, Tony's wife right?Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Really?? if so that is too funny - incestuous little world isn't it....???Quote:
Originally Posted by gofastandwynn
Speaking of what is next - anybody know why autoracing1.com pulled the merger rumor this afternoon???
What merger rumor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
The 33,296th merger rumor.
No, actually it was the 33,299th merger rumor and there have been three more since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
It was just a reference to and comment on Curt Cavin's piece today.... nothing of substance - more interested that it was pulled than what it said....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
The amigos are not selling.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
The IRL is not a qualified buyer, even if they were.
That's just silly. Link for "the amigos are not selling." And why would the IRL not be a "qualified buyer?"
And sorry, Chaimwitz.........my math is failing me in my old age! :)
Me thinks he pulled it too soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
As seen in another thread
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/
Jeff
"This was the wrong week to stop sniffing glue!". Dude, this post reflects that you are standing in the "sand" waiting for an oasis to appear. It ain't happening! The Amigos not only have to sell, but if they don't do it soon, there will be no there there. IMO, of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandfly
Well, if true......a respectable chance was there a month ago.
Cmon IndyCool,
There's always another chance. I really hope this rumour is true.
Please, please, I can dream that very soon the Indy 500 will have 33 super competitive entries and the Road America Classic will see Castro Neves and Andretti duelling with Graham Rahal.
Surely, you would love to see that as well Indy?
I have always been pro-one series. It sounds like there was another chance. But if Forsythe was looking for $100 million, he has to be out of his mind. In the similar case with Trans Am, Panoz reportedly gave Gentilozzi $2 million to take it off his hands. This sounds like a much better deal than that. And there's no indication that any of this was brought up to the CC car owners, although Walker and Haas kind of indicate they've been keeping track of things with the IRL. Oughta create real trust in the CC paddock in combination with the loss of Cotman. We're talking about Forsythe here....the guy who hired Heitzler after CART red-flagged him......guess he just sniffs different glue.
I just read Miller's report. Sounds interesting. I've always been pro-one series too, I just hope it doesn't have to take too much of a pound of flesh to get there...
The "pound of flesh" that is probably central to the issue is the same one that has always been there: control. Don't hold your breath waiting for Tony George to hand any portion of control or enter into an equity holding business partnership to the Amigos. The reality is he doesn't need to and from recent Amigo history it would probably be an unwise choice for him. The sport needs clarity and singular leadership not more paralysis like we've seen from the four headed monster that ChampCar has become. I am not saying that TG is the man, but I am saying that one leader is better than five or four or three or two.
So what do you think will happen next? What would be a good outcome given the reality of the situation?
At the end of the day a lousy economy did in Champ Car, as I suspect that the basic plan was to offer good racing and an exciting car and when it was all said and done that wasn't enough. The sponsors didn't show up and with no sponsors there is no TV deal. Also, this has been another demonstration of the wisdom of not letting SCCA types near a professional series, as Gentilozzis buddies from that organization seem to have been a real disaster. Also, If Mr. George is smart he takes the DP1 chassis and asks Honda to go back to making turbos. Also, when the final deal is done (assuming that OWRS simply doesn't liquidate itself in spite of TG), Mr. George should keep as far away from the final negotiating session as possible and send Penske in his place. TG is not getting out of this mess without taking his share of crispy crow in hot sauce.
Hate to disagree with you Hiyru, but bad judgement by The Amigos did in Champ Car. Just about every opportunity that came their way to make a decision to go forward, they ultimately made the decision which sent the series backward. Good example? When Minardi came to the series and brought a 2 person F1 car, the Champ Car braintrust decided to make that part of the pace car unit. That ultimately lost them Ford badging their Cosworth engines (as they had for years), who had been very loyal to Champ Car right from the split on, even as Toyota and Honda decided their fortune was with the IRL; even that's faded with Toyota gone and in NASCAR and F1, and Honda thinking seriously about leaving unless something happens to resolve the split. Want another? The TV package - and I admit this is debatable - which changed a lot during the split, seemed to have found a home on SPEED, with some events on CBS and NBC; now they have landed on the ESPN networks, which has become a joke. I believe SPEED, even with less of an audience than the ABC/ESPN combine, was a better home for CCWS. They got good time slots with mostly live events, which sometimes had a good lead in from F1 cablecasts, and there was much more support programming, including regular exposure on Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain and guests like Robin Miller. Never did the series have to deal with 1 hour highlight shows like they will have to deal with this year on some ESPN timeslots. It's also my opinion that CCWS gave up too quickly on Fontana; while attendence was down from the Penske glory years, they were still indesputedly outdrawing the IRL races when the two series both raced there for a couple of years. They also played up tempo musical chairs with their drivers way too much, not giving fans a chance to get to know them; and waiting until almost the start of the next season to come out with a schedule, with several races they said were confirmed on tracks that had not yet completed construction overseas. I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture. Those of us who were very critical of TG (and with good reason) for his ineptness in running his league (such as saying he wanted to run on just ovals, and to see that vow go south), now find the the 10% owner Paul Gentillozzi Amigos are just as bad, if not worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiryu
The bad economy was merely icing on an already wilted cake. A few of their good decisions were hiring Tony Cotman (now gone), and racing at Mont Tremblant in Canada, a home run and a solid single in an otherwise plethora of caught looking strikeouts.
After reading the wide range of posts on these forums over the past week I am struck by the fact that most of us now realize that we all have more in common than we have differences between us.
I also have to chuckle when I read jimispeed's signature line: "Champ Car, continuing since 1909".
Steve Johnson has also uttered a variation of this thought on occasion. Something to the effect of: "ChampCar is nearly 100 years old".
To me this deceptive propaganda underscores the delusional thinking behind the OWRS owners '"plans". You can't claim a heritage with one hand while rejecting it with another. In other words, you can’t embrace the American National Championship and reject oval racing at the same time. It simply doesn’t ring true.
Here is what does ring true:
The American National Championship that Jimispeed and Steve Johnson claim as ChampCar’s heritage is recognized to have begun in 1909. Although the majority of the races in the early years were run over the open roads (since few permanent circuits existed) the series soon became an oval centric sport and stayed that way until the CART era of the early 1980s when the sport was dominated by teams that were refugees from the SCCA Can-Am and the SCCA Formula 5000 Series before it. These road racing series had one thing in common: They weren’t financially viable or sustainable for the sanctioning bodies, the promoters or the teams.
Back to 1909: There was one permanent circuit on the schedule of that first American National Championship season. It was a 2.5 mile oval near Indianapolis Indiana. Two races were held there in that first season and with the Inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the global icon of American racing culture ever since.
Oh, did I mention that the Vanderbilt cup is a copy commissioned in 1996 for the Inaugural US 500. BTW, what ever happened to that race?
So, back to my point: ChampCar has not been “continuing since 1909”. It has been continuing since Judge Otte’s gavel fell in an Indianapolis bankruptcy court on January 28, 2004. There is a big difference between 99 years and four years.
In my view, the bloodline of the American National Championship runs through the AAA, USAC, CART and now, arguably, the IndyCar series for a number of reasons:
* The Indy Car series has the Indianapolis 500. The history of this great race is inexorably intertwined with the American National Championship.
* Fifteen of the sixteen event Indy Car Series are held in the United States. Currently only one race (Motegi) is held out of the country.
* The ChampCar World Series only holds six of its 14 races in the U.S.A.
* The Indy Car Series holds races on 11 ovals and the Champ Car World Series has chosen to abandon them completely.
* Oval racing is and was the defining discipline of the American National Championship. If they were still alive what would, Ted Horn or Jimmy Bryan think about this situation today? Would the recognize Champ Car as he rightful heir to the sport they loved? I think not...
With a combined series as outlined by the Robin Miller story we could again have a sport with the best of both best worlds. A mix of Street Circuits, Natural Terrain Road Courses, Super Speedways, Speedways and Short Ovals. Product confusion would be ended (some could argue that it already has been by Champ Car’s disappearing act in the USA) and the sport could focus on progress rather than pain.
Think about it: The dual 100th anniversaries of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the American National Championship in 2009 provide the perfect opportunity to reposition and relaunch our great sport as it enters its second century. It will be much more meaningful and powerful if we celebrate these milestones together.
“Indy Car Racing, continuing since 1909” rings true to me.
Well said, Chaimwitz.....that is true, time-honored history.
Imho their good decisions were:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
- introducing a new chassis to reduce costs: there wasn't & isn't enough money to run $5 million budgets a year.
- reducing the schedule: it mad no sense to run 18-19 races with many being financial losers.
- the new atlantics formula: they needed a feeder serie that has full fields and offer a good training ground.
- Owning rights to races in the usa, mexico and canada.
Imho they blew it by:
- going for the dp01: The car is still way to expensive & the lousy grid is killing them. TG is using it for the kill-shot.
- The timing of their tv-schedules: For 4 years they have spend a big amount of money on tv, but each year it was announced so late that it was impossible for teams to even find sponsors.
- The stupidity surrounding anything that could be marketable: They had marketable stars & sponsors from Mexico and they lost it.
- The numerous cancelled & dropped events & the stupidity of mega-gaps on their schedule: Ansan, San Jose, Denver, Mexico, Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc. etc.
- countless stupid actions and lousy pr to cover up: PG being the spokeperson, going international when your sponsors are targeting north america, losing Ford for a couple of $ from Stoddart for a pace-car program, last years spring training/news weekend, etc. etc.
I'm certain that if they had gone for a gp2-like car, had a good pr-department, ran a logical schedule, announced their tv-schedule a year upfront and had taken care of the mexican market & focused on North-america that at this point in time champcar would have 20+ sponsored cars confirmed for 2008, had a great positive buzz around them, and manufacturers would be starting to get interested in this serie.
Back to the thread title "What Happens Next?"
Well, it looks like the IRL are about to announce some significant news that will increase it's cachet and prominence. At the same time or soon after, the CCWS will be severely weakened and probably disintegrate. There is a real possibility that CCWS will not run all the planned and scheduled 2008 races.
Time honoured yes...honoured by the participants or the custodians? Hell no.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
There's the problem.
I've been arguing those exact points since 96 when they commissioned the replica cup. They have always been claiming a false history IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
This is a very well reasoned assessment, Roninho. I agree. Losing Ford was the silliest move of all in my view, as Ford gave the series solid creditability in the corporate world, and all because of a novel F1 2 seater. Yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roninho
The hits just keep on coming... Stay tuned. There is more bad news in the pipeline. Even the most ardent CCWS fanatic must now admit that things look bleak for the series at this juncture.
I have posted here asking if anyone has a suggestion of a plan going forward other than hoping that Honda leave the IRL or the Amigos spending another $50-$100 million to outlast TG. So, someone please explain to me where are the legions of committed ChampCar fans the sponsors who want to reach them are in the series home market -- the USA?
What happens next if there are not enough people who care any longer about the series formerly know as CART?