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Why do you say the extra parts (weight) don't make sense ? We tend to forget the essence rallying : Laison (=going from one place to the next) is also part of the rally - even if today it is totally uneventful. Otherwise, this is world RX ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
It is a still a technology issue that electric have different performance to the petrol/ liquid fuel cars.
If I remember correctly the EV for WRC was just to go through mountain villages etc rather than having a full noise turbo rattling through the ville.
Paddon is looking to swap batteries between stages with the Kona EV, till technology improves.
A tesla battery has near 5 times the energy density of the prius lithium battery.(80kg)
Liasion can still be eventful, a competitor did a nz event a few months back with the clutch stuck to the flywheel, relying on smashing through no clutch dogbox gear changes to complete the event.
Fast charging is improving all the time. the estonian Ultra capacitors are looking at recharging times faster than town petrol station refills.
Atlis lithium battery 2020 - 500 miles for USA pickup truck charge in 9 and half minutes. new battery configuration.
https://youtu.be/gkPg5XYf8jg?t=55
2014 Are these still operating in Bratislava? - van battery swap of 600 kg packs.
https://youtu.be/SXXbFqhlQs8
If you think about a car manufacturer boss, you can't expect them to be rally nuts or interested in rally (just because Akio Toyoda is). For them it could be a case of "give me a list of all the motorsports we are sponsoring and which power source they are using" - and crossing out everything which doesn't say "hybrid" or "electric".
Would Rally2 hybrid then be the right choice? Do the manufacturers have hybrid versions of the current Rally2 cars? I think there is soon a Ford Fiesta light hybrid, but I couldn't find any information about a hybrid Skoda Fabia, Citroen C3 or Hyundai i20, likely not at least with the current body types.
Remember how the 2022 Rally1 rules allow you to scale down the body? That's how the car manufacturers can market the bigger models which more typically have a hybrid system in the road car versions. It would be slightly more expensive than Rally2 hybrids, but it would give more marketing value for the manufacturers.
Not really, we've had 8 proper factory entries in every rally, and then the Greensmiths et al on top of that. Every rally has had more than 8 WRC cars on the start line!Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
Well, the rallies are also shorter, we should look at s/km instead. I'm picking up random rallies, like Monte 1975, the best privateer finished 3.3 s/km behind the winner. Or Finland 1976, best privateer was 2.66 s/km behind the winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
Then we look at Monte 2020 and see that Eric Camilli with an R5 finished 2.7 s/km behind the winner. Finland 2019, Kalle Rovanperä with R5 was 1.5 s/km behind the winner!
You are using examples of the 70's. Rallying became a lot more professional in the 80's, mainly from the influence of Audi. After that it has been quite rare that a privateer succeeds in a rally, especially if it is a round for manufacturer points (this is why NZ and Ivory Coast rallies, for example, were sometimes won by privateers).Quote:
The quintessence of rallying is (i) using everyday's roads (ii) everyone, from the top professional to the true amateur, competing on "equal" footing, e.g. doing the same events, same stages etc .. Rallying history is full of surprizing performances, privately entered) cars (see, from the top of my head, Alen, RAC 73, Airrikkala RAC 75, "Tony" San Remo 79)
Tony Fassina in 1979 was seeded #2 with a Lancia Stratos against Fiat 131's and Talbot Sunbeams, how surprising is that he won?
That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
Yet all these manufacturer have semi-private, very professional teams entering (randomly i admit) the events with their cars. How would that be any different than fully-backed teams if driven properly ? And maybe importers could now afford to support a lone entry here and there to spice it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
All in all, I like the idea of more (supposidely) equal footing entry, instead of just having to pick from 9 drivers (3x3), always the same, at any given round. Remember the 90's ? The entry list was so full of A8 cars that you had to wait for entry #35 if not more for the first A7 .... and many of them were serious drivers that could compete, if not for the top spot, at least for the top 6.
One thing to consider is that the reign of the factory team might be coming to close in WRC as well, like it is in many other motorsport series already. WRC might no longer have full factory teams, but rather semi-official teams with varying amounts of factory support. M-Sport has already run such operation for many years. DTM is the latest series to move towards this model, ok, they were forced to do the change but WRC might eventually be as well. Like some have said, such changes might open up more possibilities for serious privateers to compete better (not win).
Unfortunately I do not see use of motorsports in marketing to grow in the future, but rather diminish. For us who are fans we might see it differently, but the rest of the world wont. I would see it important for FIA and other rallying authorities to support any path that keeps the sport healthiest, both the flagship series as well the local ones - whatever that might mean. FIA being FIA - I am not 100% positive this will happen.
How would it be different? A whole lot more expensive to pay a top driver like Ogier, Neuville or Tänak, and take three cars to every round of the season, do testing for every driver and also development work.Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
I do. And I remember the homebuilt A8 cars which at best fought with the best N4 cars.Quote:
All in all, I like the idea of more (supposidely) equal footing entry, instead of just having to pick from 9 drivers (3x3), always the same, at any given round. Remember the 90's ? The entry list was so full of A8 cars that you had to wait for entry #35 if not more for the first A7 .... and many of them were serious drivers that could compete, if not for the top spot, at least for the top 6.
If we ignore Safari and the rallies without manufacturer points available, here's the surprising podiums I can find:
- 1990 Corsica Chatriot 3rd (with BMW M3!)
- 1991 Corsica Cunico 3rd
- 1991 Sanremo Cerrato 3rd (Jolly Club Lancia)
- 1993 Sanremo Cunico 1st Snijers 2nd Pianezzola 3rd (Toyota, Mitsubishi and Subaru didn't even enter the rally!)
- 1993 RAC Wilson 3rd
- 1996 Finland Kytölehto 3rd
- 1997 Finland Kytölehto 3rd
- 1998 Portugal Loix 3rd
And then a bunch of F2 podiums on tarmac rallies which were in the end down to the regulations allowing the cars to be light enough.
I said could not would, I’m making no assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
But if the WRC offered an opportunity to promote at the top level with a car they have more or less already developed, and compete at a fraction of the previous cost, I’d be surprised if they all weren’t at least interested, and if they can hide it under the ‘customer’ motorsport banner through BRR in the case of VW, even better for them.
Maybe running it in similar way to GT3 would work, where all the cars are entered by private teams rather than factories, and have factory drivers placed with them. Then you could have multiple teams running the same cars as well.
Could make sence to me, because same for all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
More than 10 years on and its still in the future...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...hybrid-wrc-car
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...d-car-for-wrc/
We tend to forget that these rules were made by the FIA on a permanent dialogue with all the manus; according to what was told at the beginning, Toyota pushed for even more costly in-house developed systems but they end agreeing with common hybrids units use, and so the other 2; that’s why the FIA launched a public tender for an external supplier at the end of 2019. It’s also known that during the lockdown Adamo was praising the FIA for the new rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
So, what went wrong afterwards? It’s hard to tell but it seems clear that the current mess could be avoided if the FIA got manus formal commitment before launching the tender, not after it, as they’re now trying to do; this way, any manu can pull-out the series at the end of ’21 without being fined...
PDF link to Hybrid systems tender:
https://legal.fia.com/web/appeloffre.nsf/F1AA7144B5082934C12584D500563B6B/$FILE/ITT%20WRC%20Hybrid%20System%202022-2024_Final%2019.12.2019.pdf?openelement
Adamo on the rules making:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2...has-ever-seen/
Because by adding 200 kg to a WRC car (just an example but the batteries and other extra stuff are heavy) you make it probably hardly any faster than an R5 car while being multiple-times more expensive. Does it make any sense to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
Think about it again, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
[QUOTE=Mirek;1253984]Because by adding 200 kg to a WRC car (just an example but the batteries and other extra stuff are heavy) you make it probably hardly any faster than an R5 car while being multiple-times more expensive. Does it make any sense to you?
I get your point but "running ahead" as we say in french is not a solution either : In essence, you add a heavy (and costly) hybrid system that degrades car performances, so what is the solution : make the car even more complicated / expensive to keep the gap with the lower formula. Isn't there something twisted here ?
No. The only thing you need is to use such additional hybrid system for enhancing the vehicle performance instead of carrying it around for use on liaisons only. IMO it's actually pretty simple and logical thing.
Because you are looking at it from the performance (e.g. sport) standpoint, which makes a lot of sense. But if you look at it from the marketing (e.g. business value) side of things, it is a different story. Ideally you are correct and everyone wants high performance cars. But this whole thread is about how to ensure manufactuers stay involved in the sport, not breaking speed records...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
They will not stay if WRC cars will not be a lot faster than R5. That is completely wrong thinking. The top class must be very clearly the top class otherwise there will be no interest in it both from the spectators and the teams. Nobody will follow WRC if the cars won't crush the supporting categories any day. And the marketing value will be zero.
Good discussions!
what is the realistic season we will see the new Rally1?
Will FIA be able to get the final rules out in time to see them in 22, or will it be 2023?
Dirtfish and this also says Rally2 hybrid from 2023.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2...nology-by-2023
I think you are right if the manufacturers are spending millions on a Rally-1 car, they will expect the regulations to ensure those are the fastest cars and not have the Peugeot/Citroen F2 car scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
But I believe that if Rally-2/R5 took over as the premier class, the justification for a brand entering the WRC would change completely, as it wouldn’t solely be based on a massive marketing budget to develop and compete with, but also a commercial one as they would only have to develop one car to compete with, and sell to others and offset the costs through customer racing.
Like I have mentioned before, GT3 is a prime example of this. People have used VW Group as an example of wanting electrification for marketing purposes, yet the VW Group have 4 brands competing in GT3 with de-facto factory teams hidden under the customer racing umbrella.
The FIA tender was pretty clear: the full hybrid system max weight is 80kg and allows a peak power of 100kW (=134hp).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Even if it's not certain how that extra hybrid boost can be used on a SS, Rally1H would always be faster than current Rally2 cars once they continue to use the GREngines as their main power source.
AFAIK The idea about running only liaisons on electricity was discussed and rejected before the tender was opened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Don't get me wrong but I don't believe an 80 kg system can work with batteries able to run the car over liaisons. In my opinion such low weight suggests that the system would rather use supercapacitors or flywheels to give reasonable boost on acceleration over short period of time.
As I said already, the best (factory supported) teams will get the best drivers and more testing, so they will always remain at the forefront. As Antill was underlining, the second tier teams/drivers gaining "unexpected" podiums have been scarce in the past - yet there was no free pass for the top teams, one small mistake and you were way down the charts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
And I don't buy the concept of top teams always remaining at the top. Do you enjoy Ligue 1 (french soccer) where Paris is guaranteed the top spot whatsoever year after year ? Or the Ligua where only 2 team (Real and Barça) compete ? Or F1/WEC if you wish to stay in the motoring world ?
Rally is all about mixing it up from the top tier professionals, to the begginner amateur. a pklace where you can climb the ladder on merit, not through your wallet. This is no more the case
More so, what is important for a manufactuer marketing-wise is to win and tell a good story - nobody cares if it is by 15 minutes or 5 seconds. Nobody cares how many sec/km are gained by these uber-expensive machines (provided it is good spectacle, which it would even with R5 driven by the likes of Ogier, Tanak etc ...).
I am with you from a spectator's standpoint : These Rallye1 machines are incredible to watch. But we die-hard fans, are not the marketing target of the auto makers moguls. It is the average Joe that opens his newspaper or watches a TV commercial - and he could not care less of what is under the body of the car.
Better being rich and famous (e.g. plethora of spectacular Rally1 machinery) which you are defending, but i would rather not turn poor and lonely (e.g. a handful, if not less, of top class cars crushing the rest of the field and cruising through a rally) - and this is what we are facing if we continue on the path laid down by Matton et al...
What? WRC is one of the few motorsport "leagues" where you can get to the top league with a big wallet but no merit, while even the best skill may not be enough without budget. And it has always been that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
I mean, we can't be suggesting there should be a rule that the winner of every country's national championship gets a full season in WRC? Or on the contrary, you should win your own country championship before being allowed to drive in WRC?
Remember that although it would be idealistic to run all liaisons on electric, marketing-wise it doesn't give anything to the manufacturers because it's rare that cars are spectated on liaisons, except for cities and service parks - which are going to be run on electric motor in the 2022 rules! And for sure the WRC Promoter will require plenty of footage of this to the WRC+ highlightsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Besides the power boost on the stages, the hybrid system is also required to be used in electric mode inside urban areas on the liaisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
You can check page 18 of the PDF or take Matton’s words to wrc.com: https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2...-a-generation/
I thought it over (blink to Mirek :) ) and still don´t see why not? @AnttiL I would say it´s not what spectators can see on liason, it´s about what marketing people will do about it. advertisings etz...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Short range on electricity is probably possible but remember that in WRC liaisons are up to several hundred kilometers long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Count with me. If you go for two hours at an average 20 kW power (no idea how much WRC in average need on the liaison but let's take Tesla S value as a very rough example), you need 40 kWh plus some reserve, so let's say 50 kWh. The best Tesla batteries have 160 Wh/kg. That means for two hours of very energy-effective driving you need 312 kg of batteries! Now take into account that longer liaisons than that exist in WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
For sure you are right about that. But still, must it be the digital way? 1? or 0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
There should be ways in the middle. You know Swedish word "lagom"?
Everything is negotiable. The routes of the rallies could be changed with shorter liaisons and/or remote charging stations added.
Yeah, and if we have a light hybrid system, the cars resemble the manufacturer hybrid models and WRC+ shows footage of the cars entering the service park or going through a city silently, the marketing department is satisfied. No need for heavy battery packs or remote charging stations to get through hundreds of kilometres of liaison. Also the actual sport is affected as little as possible (could we still see someone retire because of the hybrid system failing?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Guys, when you talk about silence and marketing, you do realise the silent film era died nearly a century ago for a good reason. People like sound.
So we should just turn WRC+ into silent films and say they're all electric cars, that's the way to save the series! :bounce:Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
In the end it doesn't really matter what's under the hood. The people who know usually care about rallying, and those who don't know can be satisfied by telling them whatever they want to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Not long ago ford called their wrc engine ecoboost and put huge stickers on their wrc cars, even though the wrc engine has nothing in common with the ordinary ecoboost engines.
Marketing is all lies, i see no reason why it should be different in wrc. If they just put a hybrid logo on the cars, 95% of the population will just believe it.
You're wrong. The previous generation of the Fiesta WRC used the Ecoboost 1.6 from the Fiesta ST for their WRC. Of course apart from the engine block most components were different. With the current generation it's a different engine, and little to no visibility for the "ecoboost" logo.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
I hate to say it, but this extreme E series is gathering a staggering amount of momentum. I'm certainly not saying it's a competitor for rallying, but BBC1 coverage, multiple F1 champion involvement and it hasn't even started yet.
Although it's a different sport, will it absorb some of the fans rallying was aiming to capture, or possible poach a some current ones?
They still have Powered by Ecoboost stickers on the cars since 2017 and they always use it in their media:Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
M-Sport @MSportLtd
Oct 11
Both EcoBoost-powered Ford Fiesta WRCs safely through the first stage of the day #WRC #MSPORTERS
https://fordauthority.com/wp-content...Livery-015.jpg
https://fordauthority.com/wp-content...Livery-009.jpg
Even the block won't be the same. It may come from the same factory but that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
All i'm trying to say is that they can lie about it and nobody cares. So why not just tell people the cars are hybrids without them actually being so.
If necessary we could put some small cheap electric unit in it that will power the car for 1 kilometer or so. Then it won't even be lying.
They can call it how they like, if it`s an Ecoboost, then it is an ecoboost, just Ford`s trademark for their Turbo engines.
And indeed, previous Fiesta WRC had a modified stock block (as can be seen in the video below), but the last versioon i believe was casted for only WRC cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbMk50awO0
You’ve just described the 2022 hybrid rules :)Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi