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Maybe that is the problem: what exactly is "enough"? Where is it defined? F1 drivers are such a competitive breed that they'll only do the bare minimum to comply with the letter of the rules, you can't reasonaly expect them to say "after you".Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
Maybe Lewis was greedy, maybe not. But unless you define exactly where the boundries are you can't arbitrarily punish drivers for breaking them.
A cock-up, but they can't rectify it. It's just not allowed. Doesn't make it right, but I'll eat my hat if the result is changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Let me clarify. I think they cocked up with regard to the communication with McLaren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
IMHO McLaren should have been told "Do what you think is right and if it's all good then no problems and if not then you'll get a penalty". They could have then said to Lewis to drop back a bit more and we wouldn't have this unfortunate situation. Incidents like this should be investigated and the decisions should only be made after the investigations have been concluded. How Charlie could have investigated things between the time lewis went off and the time Lewis overtook Kimi I don't know......
Forgot to mention.... bad news :( My blood is red and I bleed lots when some woman sticks a needle in my arm :pQuote:
Originally Posted by pino
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
This is his car was soooo much better in the conditions that he could have given Kimi another second or so and he still would have won the race comfortably. No one can doubt Lewis' obvious skill when it comes to driving but his decision making skills leave a lot to be desired.
Let us also not forget that this is not Lewis' first indiscretion this year. He passed Vetel and outbraked himself and went over the chicane and not giving the place back and he's rammed Kimi from behind as well. I think someone with a record like this going out of their way to try to show good behaviour and give back the advantage and then some so as not to give the stewards any room to make the decision they did.
Exactly - if they're pushed for space, they will cut across the chicane and then negate that advantage. Why they made the inside of the chicane asphalt and then expect racing drivers not to use it in situations like that is beyond me. In all cases I've seen when watching F1, "negating an advantage" has meant "cleanly conceding the position (ie, the back of the other drivers car is in front of the front of your car) so that the other driver has the optimum line". And I hope the stewards see that the same way as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
But seeing as one of the stewards doesn't even have a background in F1, I am a bit skeptical that he will view that interpretation that way.
If I were in race control for that situation, I would give Hamilton a warning about how that rule can be interpreted. But nothing more.
Don't you think that's a bit hit and miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
"Do what you think is right"?
They tried that and it didn't work.
Shouldn't the correct procedure in this situation be something like:
1. Car avoids a collission by cutting a chicane and finishes ahead of another car.
2. Car gives back position and continues racing.
3. Team confirm with Race Director that things are now OK.
What should not happen in my opinion is:
4. After confirming that everything is OK, race director initiates investigation into something he has confirmed during the race is OK.
5. Stewards alter outcome of a race retrospectivly.
6. Team appeal and FIA keep everyone in suspense.
I think this underlines a basic requirement for the FIA to have transparent rules and 3 stewards that travel with the circus.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
I agree it was clumsy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
As I said I don't feel it should be up to the race director to make a judgement immediately on the spot and say whether it is OK or not. There needs to be an investigation. If you were accused of murder you don't simply ask the office arresting you "am I ok?" and then go and use that in court as proof you didn't do it now do you?. I think McLaren should bear some of the responsibility for the clumsiness of things.
I think it was silly of McLaren to ask "Are we OK?". You should know if it's OK and if it's not or you think that there's a maybe involved you should seek make it obvious that you're relinquishing any advantage that you've gained. The onus is on the team to show they've done nothing wrong in a case like this. Up until the point where Lewis relinquished his place he had committed an offence which was punishable with a drive through penalty or a 25 second penalty if the drive through wasn't taken. I think we all agree on that? and we agree that if he negated the advantage he gained by the fact that he didn't need to brake as early into the chicane as well as the shortcut gained by it then we wouldn't be here. In this situation you should give back what is reasonable and then some and leave it till the corner after the one coming up to attack and no one can complain about it.
I think given Lewis' record this year he should have been going out of his way to make it look like he lost out of that manuever and overtaking Kimi at the end of the straight sure as hell didn't look like losing out to me :)
and that's exactly the point..Nowhere in the rulesbook is described what to do in cases like this...what a driver should do..what the steps are for a team to do..what exactly would eliminate the advantage gained etc... etc...so no penalty should be given either until there is a clear rule about it....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Like I said before. The regulations aren't exhaustive and simply can't cater for each situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Is that not a little bit like saying "Guilty until proven innocent?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Nope. Hamilton was clearly guilty of the infrigement. Up until the point where Kimi passed him it was clearly that he had gained a position non? So the onus was on him to make it obvious that he had lot out of the whole maneuver.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicpanda
well, Lewis backed off by 6 km/h to allow Kimi to re-pass him and then glued himself to his gearbox so he could overtake him immediately. To me, this is not backing off enough. It all comes down to experience, in my opinion. I don't see a Prost, for example, making this kind of mistakes. I know they are all racers, but this episode shows me how immature Lewis still is. And Ron should have known better...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Come on Danny. We all know what a driver should do when he overtakes by cutting a chicane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
He gives it back then tries to do it correctly.
Nobodies ever been penalised before for complying with this process and when they have even been told that it's OK by the Race Director, what more can they do?
When you get drivers like Schumacher maintaining his position several times by cutting corners and not being penalised, you have to ask questions.
You are right though. It is a cock-up and one they need to rectify.
than how can a driver give back advantage if nobody can say what it exactly means ?...and where does it say in situations like this a driver should wait at least one corner to make another attempt to pass the other driver involved ? Like some say lewis should have donne ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
It does not but then again it doesn't say that a driver should give the place back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
The rules state exactly what the Stewards has indicated. That he cut the corner and was penalised 25 seconds. There is no other evidence mentioned by the Stewards to indicate that he gave the position back, was forced off track contrary to the regulations or that the Race Director said they were OK once they had given the place back and subsequently, when nothing could be done about it, started the investigation off.
Sounds like a 1970 police fit-up guv but the police managed to sort their house up by exhaustive anti-corruption investigations.
OK, perhaps now, that the matter has gone to the Court of Appeal, the burden of proof is on McLaren, because they are challenging the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I would think that before the original decision, though, it was up to the Stewards to explain why they thought Hamilton, despite backing off, merited a penalty.
U should review the video...than you would see it was actualy Kimi moving over to Lewis line..so if there was already a drag it was caused by Kimi...why he not staid on the inside line defending his position like he did before the chicane ?Big mistake from kimi I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
Sorry, perhaps I missed this.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicpanda
Has the right to appeal been given by the FIA or are they still keeping stum?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXVT4CO6ALMQuote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
ok lets watch this video together..at 15 sec..no drag..at 20 sec no drag..but by than Kimi moves over to Lewis line..on 21 secs lewis dives to the inside..in a split of a sec...where exactly did he "glued" himself to kimi's gearbox ?
So what, in your opinion, would have been "backing off enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
Perhaps I should say, now that McLaren has lodged notice of appeal with the FIA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
wonder what today's stewards would have made of this, then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCqY8Wg5So
on the short straight after he let Kimi through... admittedly for a split second, but he didn't allow enough space between himself and Kimi. He came out from behind him too soon, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Anyway, the fact that Ron asked Charlie twice if it was ok tells you that even RD thought it was dodgy...
Lewis didn't have to overtake Kimi at all. He would have lost two points to Kimi, but gained one over Massa, his direct rival. I'm afraid LH might be a very fast and talented driver, but he is still too 'green' to win a championship. He needs to use his head instead of his balls...
a couple of meters...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Do you know what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
That was superb!!
2 drivers giving it all but fairly. Nobody pushing the other off and letting their skill decide the result.
This is what F1 should be. With drivers like Lewis, Alonso, Massa, Kimi, Kube etc, it could so easily be again.
There is a cancer in F1 and until it's removed, we will never get the sport we deserve.
he came out just like before the chicane...when kimi was breaking way earlier than Lewis again..Not because Lewis took advantage of a drag or anything else.....vid clearly shows...Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
and about your second part ? we are talking about racing here don't we ? If every racer would think that way races would become very boring to watch..don't you think ?
yes, funnily enough, I didn't see any chicane cutting there... :-)
I hope you saw Kimi goin off track at the first corner gaining advantage ? :-))Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
if he braked and slowed down behind Kimi instead of cutting the chicane, Lewis would have been a lot more behind Kimi than that... by cutting the chicane and then positioning himself so close to Kimi, he gained an unfair advantage in my opinion. But I'm sure you disagree... :-)
no, not when you are just about to win the championship... at this rate, he will become another Sterling Moss...Quote:
and about your second part ? we are talking about racing here don't we ? If every racer would think that way races would become very boring to watch..don't you think ?
Not really..I can follow you there..but when the same situation happens in a race and one gets a penalty and the other not...Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
If Kimi braked harder at the first corner to make it properly...he would never been so close behind Massa to overtake him soon after..so he gained advantage to from leaving the track...correct me if I am wrong ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
I hereby give notice that I am ignoring your posts from this moment onwards. You don't get it..... you... just.... don't.... get it.
The problem with F1 is the cars. Too much aero grip and not enough mechanical grip. Slicks next year won't sort this either IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
awwwwwwwwwwwwwww...hides in a corner and starts crying ! *rolling eyes*Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
you know what the difference is between you and me..you have your view on things..and I have mine...does that mean I have to ingore someone ? don't see why...it's a bit childish actualy !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
can't answer that... don't remember the incident, honest!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Amen, brother!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
*Other than that, I don't agree with a word you say!
I managed to re-watch the incident... I think you got a point there... :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Lewis , in his own words , "had a look" , at the chicane , and it didn't come off . Kimi defended , as was his perogative .
Had Lewis braked any later , it was likely that he wouldn't have made it . He is a pretty good judge of such things , and doesn't generally have a reputation of flying off everywhere as his driving is often described as smooth .
If we see that as likely , then we might be able to say with confidence , that Kimi had his line , and braking , just right , as , in the entry of the chicane Lewis couldn't get his nose in far enough on his "look" in , to obtain the dominant position for the next apex .
Lewis backed out , going off track , left , while Kimi took the corner .
At this point Lewis was compromized by the excursion , and the onus was on the driver to show clearly to have negated any advantage that going outside the racing surface had gained him .
We have a judgement call here .
Once Hamilton made the decision to have a look , he sealed his fate .
He might easily have been able to get him on the pit straight , had he followed him through , as some have suggested . Maybe he should have .
Had he braked slightly earlier , on the line he took , a move to regain the same position out was less likely , since Kimi timed it well , and was there to compromise an "outside in" move with his positioning .
The opposite "inside out" move was there , I think , but alas , the early brakes weren't .
Kimi's slighly erratic behavior at the end of the pit straight made me think about what he , perhaps was thinking at the time .
Something like "Hey . He can't do that !" comes to mind .
After all , Kimi does know how to defend , and that was not how to defend .
Not sure about that - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KW2BixHl5oU ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan