2008 Rally New Zealand - official thread

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Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Hey Daniel, you must change this !
Now Citroen is cheating, sorry, using tactics too, it must be 164% :D :D :D

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Done ;)

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Originally Posted by ste898

If you read the above post before you typed (it was right beside Citroen are a more complete team)I said quote' Ford only have themselves to blame'

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Exactly. Now why do you go on about how Citroen are cheats in every other thread? I understand you're a Ford fan and all and that's fine. But just don't blame Citroen for the fact that Ford can just never seem to put together a package of drivers and car that makes it unbeatable.

If Ford had put Carlos and Colin in the Focus WRC 03 for a couple of seasons I would think that Ford would have had taken a driver to the WDC and would have possibly taken a manufacturers title as well. But they didn't and you can only judge a team on what it actually does. The same could be said of this year. Mikko and Jari-Matti were never going to take the drivers titles and they should have focused on the manufacturers title and have employed a good (as in consistent) 2nd driver to support Mikko. Chris Atkinson or Petter Solberg would both have been good candidates for 2nd or even 1st driver. Don't get me wrong.... Latvala is a diamond of a driver but he's a rough diamond at the moment and perhaps a year in the Stobart team showing Matthew Wilson up for the crap driver he is would have helped him.

My final point is that perhaps Ford and Malcolm have their fingers in too many pies. There's the Ford Abu Dooby Doo Wah team, there's the Stobart team, there's the ice cream team and then Malcom will also be dealing with junior pootling his way through the stages like a Sunday driver. Citroen look to be on course with winning both titles with just two cars which is rather telling.

A friend of mine made a good point via email the other day when he was talking about how crap Abarth are doing in the IRC with reliability. It's ALWAYS a management problem. If something breaks then fix it and if it breaks again then FIX IT. If the car isn't fast enough then do some development and if it's still not fast do some more development. If these things don't get sorted then fire people and hire some people who can do the job.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Done ;)



Exactly. Now why do you go on about how Citroen are cheats in every other thread? I understand you're a Ford fan and all and that's fine. But just don't blame Citroen for the fact that Ford can just never seem to put together a package of drivers and car that makes it unbeatable.

If Ford had put Carlos and Colin in the Focus WRC 03 for a couple of seasons I would think that Ford would have had taken a driver to the WDC and would have possibly taken a manufacturers title as well. But they didn't and you can only judge a team on what it actually does. The same could be said of this year. Mikko and Jari-Matti were never going to take the drivers titles and they should have focused on the manufacturers title and have employed a good (as in consistent) 2nd driver to support Mikko. Chris Atkinson or Petter Solberg would both have been good candidates for 2nd or even 1st driver. Don't get me wrong.... Latvala is a diamond of a driver but he's a rough diamond at the moment and perhaps a year in the Stobart team showing Matthew Wilson up for the crap driver he is would have helped him.

My final point is that perhaps Ford and Malcolm have their fingers in too many pies. There's the Ford Abu Dooby Doo Wah team, there's the Stobart team, there's the ice cream team and then Malcom will also be dealing with junior pootling his way through the stages like a Sunday driver. Citroen look to be on course with winning both titles with just two cars which is rather telling.

A friend of mine made a good point via email the other day when he was talking about how crap Abarth are doing in the IRC with reliability. It's ALWAYS a management problem. If something breaks then fix it and if it breaks again then FIX IT. If the car isn't fast enough then do some development and if it's still not fast do some more development. If these things don't get sorted then fire people and hire some people who can do the job.

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Correct on all points Daniel

On Saturday morning I was at a very long hairpin, it was obvious that Petter was very slow through it, waiting almost a full second longer than the rest of the WRCs to get onto the power.

In the afternoon I was at the jump that Gardemeister crashed at a few years ago - Duval, Hirvonen, Latvala and Loeb were most spectacular, I think. A few group N boys got it hopelessly wrong and nearly went off, and Gardemeister almost went off a few corners on.

Loeb was the most spectacular all day at the Whaanga Coast, although Anderson in his Suzuki was very sideways and interesting to watch. Rautenbach was hardly faster than Group N cars the second time through, while Wilson almost spun in front of us, botching it completely.

Whay is about Russians in New Zealand? As far as I know, Vertunov crashed in the first day, and Novikov destroyed the car's transmission in the end of the second... Are there any details?

Thank you.

Videos
http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/repc...final-results/

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Originally Posted by alleskids

Duval misunderstood the orders he got: Do a better job than Latvalla. So if Latvalla crashes, I have to crash even better :( ?

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Cruel.... but funny :laugh:

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Cruel.... but funny :laugh:

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:)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Done ;)



Exactly. Now why do you go on about how Citroen are cheats in every other thread? I understand you're a Ford fan and all and that's fine. But just don't blame Citroen for the fact that Ford can just never seem to put together a package of drivers and car that makes it unbeatable.

If Ford had put Carlos and Colin in the Focus WRC 03 for a couple of seasons I would think that Ford would have had taken a driver to the WDC and would have possibly taken a manufacturers title as well. But they didn't and you can only judge a team on what it actually does. The same could be said of this year. Mikko and Jari-Matti were never going to take the drivers titles and they should have focused on the manufacturers title and have employed a good (as in consistent) 2nd driver to support Mikko. Chris Atkinson or Petter Solberg would both have been good candidates for 2nd or even 1st driver. Don't get me wrong.... Latvala is a diamond of a driver but he's a rough diamond at the moment and perhaps a year in the Stobart team showing Matthew Wilson up for the crap driver he is would have helped him.

My final point is that perhaps Ford and Malcolm have their fingers in too many pies. There's the Ford Abu Dooby Doo Wah team, there's the Stobart team, there's the ice cream team and then Malcom will also be dealing with junior pootling his way through the stages like a Sunday driver. Citroen look to be on course with winning both titles with just two cars which is rather telling.

A friend of mine made a good point via email the other day when he was talking about how crap Abarth are doing in the IRC with reliability. It's ALWAYS a management problem. If something breaks then fix it and if it breaks again then FIX IT. If the car isn't fast enough then do some development and if it's still not fast do some more development. If these things don't get sorted then fire people and hire some people who can do the job.

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About Malcom and M-Sport - don't forget that it is his business - it's in his best interests to run as many cars as possible. It might not be in Ford's best interests mind you. Saying that imagine the WRC without the 'Privateer' Fords - threadbare springs to mind.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I think this is hilarious. Not because I wanted Citroen to win when a rally which they didn't have the pace to win, but because of who it will annoy and the fact that in my opinion it's payback for Ford tactics earlier this year.

Mikko deserved to win and anyone with any sense will realise that although the trophy has Seb's name on it this was Mikko's rally.

As Nelson Muntz says though..... HAW HAW! :p

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Quite odd post I have to say. Payback for Ford's tactics? Sounds silly. But anyway, I know that you are hoping also that Citroen will have bad luck for instance in Catalunya for all the evil things they did with tactics in NZ.

I just wish that everyone here would realize that with the current rule about the starting order, there will be tactics. It would be stupid not to "play" correctly to get a better starting place. No need to blame anyone IMO.

I'm really bummed about Mikko's bad luck. He was beating Seb even that both parties "played". What comes to J-M, the guy needs to calm down now. 1-2 crashes more and he'll find himself driving Stobart for the whole next season... :(

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You don't get it do you? You said that if Aava and Rautencrash were good enough Citroen would do the same and I said IF they did I would be just as critical of them. So then you say "Like Loeb today tactics" which is absolutely nothing like what you were talking about before. Stop putting words in my mouth........ I don't accuse you of saying things you haven't and I'll be happy if you do the same for me thanks.....

Citroen have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER used another team in their team orders to give their drivers an advantage in road position. Ford have and I don't like it at all! If Citroen did it I wouldn't like that at all. Thing is Citroen haven't done it yet and you'll just have to take my word on it.

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:down:
What a lot of bs! Because Citroen is not in this situation, it is Ford you blame? :confused: Why Ford, Citroen and not stobart? This is possible by the rules. For any team! Get a live. This is a real bad post!

I've enjoyed this rally, because this tactics. It is part of the game. This make rally exiting. It is not a walk over for any driver. It is competition until the last day. That is ok.

I just wanna say:

I love how sometimes Karma strikes back :D :s mokin:

Congratulations to Seb and Elena for the victory, kind of shame for Mikko, but hey, that's rally...

Watched the coverage on TV last night, and I must say that I was very dissapointed by that - again. I don't like the approach where they only concentrate on the duel between the top 2-4 drivers, showing the other drivers 5-10 secs each. For instance, I think I saw Henning for max. 10 seconds - and he won 7 stages, and were fastest overall on both day 2 and day 3! Very good driving from him, even if he had a good road position due to his misfortune on the first day.

Otherwise, good driving from Sordo aswell, fast and consistant. Another terrible rally for the Subaru team, especially day 1, incredible that they actually loose time to Matthew Wilson on several stages!

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Originally Posted by Roy

:down:
What a lot of bs! Because Citroen is not in this situation, it is Ford you blame? :confused: Why Ford, Citroen and not stobart? This is possible by the rules. For any team! Get a live. This is a real bad post!

I've enjoyed this rally, because this tactics. It is part of the game. This make rally exiting. It is not a walk over for any driver. It is competition until the last day. That is ok.

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It was exciting because it was contrived, I'm all for competion, but not when it's manufactured, it just makes WRC look a joke, this isn't WWE. Watching Latvala and Loeb stopping at the end of the stage on Saturday is just absurd, while they're not breaking rules it looks terrible. Lets have a rethink for next year.

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

It was exciting because it was contrived, I'm all for competion, but not when it's manufactured, it just makes WRC look a joke, this isn't WWE. Watching Latvala and Loeb stopping at the end of the stage on Saturday is just absurd, while they're not breaking rules it looks terrible. Lets have a rethink for next year.

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Good post, close competition is good but no true fan should want to see false competition

Roy seems to be getting a bit excited while not knowing much about what Daniel was refering to in his post....

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Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

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Roy seems to be getting a bit excited while not knowing much about what Daniel was refering to in his post....

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What is his point?

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Originally Posted by Roy

What is his point?

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Read the post :) It's fairly clear :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Read the post :) It's fairly clear :)

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I see no other point then by first reading. My reaction is still the same.

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Originally Posted by Roy

I see no other point then by first reading. My reaction is still the same.

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If you dont' understand the post it's not my fault/problem :)

Cut the BS seems to understand it just fine.

Lol! Just saw the Dave review with Loeb dissing Elena for maybe losing the win last year cos of his weight :p

Came up with new nicknames for them with a friend.

"Golden arse and chubb chubb"

Hope it's not too mean :p

First of all, good evening to everyone. It my first post on this Form.
Basically I disagree with the theory that tactics part of the game. I think that rallies must be ‘played; straight without tactics, and actually reduce the spectacle!!

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Originally Posted by s.loeb

First of all, good evening to everyone. It my first post on this Form.
Basically I disagree with the theory that tactics part of the game. I think that rallies must be ‘played; straight without tactics, and actually reduce the spectacle!!

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good to see some drivers on here posting themselves.
you must be knackered after that flight home from NZ, and straight onto the rally forum? fair play...
bet you have a thumpin headache after a few bevvies last night to celebrate?? two pints of water and you'll be on top of the world.
btw... get your hair cut!

:)

Only a Kiwi rally fan would tell it how it is! haha

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/416/dscf3900ee5.th.jpg

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mPEHD3cNtH8

My Review of New Zealand.

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Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

Good post, close competition is good but no true fan should want to see false competition

Roy seems to be getting a bit excited while not knowing much about what Daniel was refering to in his post....

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False competition? Tactics are not false... :down:
And yes this is exiting until the last stage!
With that bonus point system we see another tactics. Loosing time, but picked up enough bonus points. It brings more mathematics in rally.

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Originally Posted by Roy

False competition? Tactics are not false... :down:
And yes this is exiting until the last stage!
With that bonus point system we see another tactics. Loosing time, but picked up enough bonus points. It brings more mathematics in rally.

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In a truly tactical game each competitor normally has equal opportunity to decide on strategy, to try to guess and react to their competitors. In WRC this year the championship leader runs 1st on the road, problems apart ;-) he is 1st to complete the days stages, giving those behind him a clear idea of how exactly to react. How exactly is the 1st man on an equal footing here? A blind man could see that the leader is being disadvantaged by this system, and this is exactly what it was planned to do. There are plenty of contrived sports in the world if thats what you want, I think you will find the running order as it is this year will be revised.

Tactics are great.

4 drivers going for victory on the last two stages.

otherwise it would have been Loeb ahead by 15 mins at the end of day 2, and a forgone result.

Tactics please.

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Originally Posted by bowler

Tactics are great.

4 drivers going for victory on the last two stages.

otherwise it would have been Loeb ahead by 15 mins at the end of day 2, and a forgone result.

Tactics please.

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Why don't we ballast the cars too? We could have Conrad in on the action if you ballast Loeb with a few hundred kilo's. Man you should work for the FIA :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Why don't we ballast the cars too? We could have Conrad in on the action if you ballast Loeb with a few hundred kilo's. Man you should work for the FIA :)

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Please dont suggest things like that, the NZ stylist might read this forum.

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Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

In a truly tactical game each competitor normally has equal opportunity to decide on strategy, to try to guess and react to their competitors. In WRC this year the championship leader runs 1st on the road, problems apart ;-) he is 1st to complete the days stages, giving those behind him a clear idea of how exactly to react. How exactly is the 1st man on an equal footing here? A blind man could see that the leader is being disadvantaged by this system, and this is exactly what it was planned to do. There are plenty of contrived sports in the world if thats what you want, I think you will find the running order as it is this year will be revised.

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Spot on!!
We all want a strong competitive WRC, but this isn't the way to go about it - Handicapping is okay in National championships (i;e BTCC) but not in a World Championship - we want an even contest. It just so happens that Citroen and Ford are better than Subaru and Suzuki. There are other better ways of making the WRC strong again - S2000/Global Promoter.

I just had to upload this because it was great to watch.
Stage 14 from the Helicopter following Latvala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9GeHxic_w

Awesome! :D

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Originally Posted by RallyfanNZ

I just had to upload this because it was great to watch.
Stage 14 from the Helicopter following Latvala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9GeHxic_w

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Amazing video, thanks for posting in here :up:

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Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

In a truly tactical game each competitor normally has equal opportunity to decide on strategy, to try to guess and react to their competitors. In WRC this year the championship leader runs 1st on the road, problems apart ;-) he is 1st to complete the days stages, giving those behind him a clear idea of how exactly to react. How exactly is the 1st man on an equal footing here? A blind man could see that the leader is being disadvantaged by this system, and this is exactly what it was planned to do. There are plenty of contrived sports in the world if thats what you want, I think you will find the running order as it is this year will be revised.

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Exactly :) People only care about what the leaderboard says even if it is totally contrived.

I personally think if we're going to go down this route we should give success ballast. That was pretty much anyone could win the title.

I think it's a dumb idea but at least it will actually do what people think these silly road rules are doing and give a variety of stage winners. All this does is make it difficult for Loeb to win and in the end he still wins most of the time....

With regards to results some people appear to have forgotten one of the very simple lessons of life which is that "Cream will always rise to the top"

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Originally Posted by Carlo

With regards to results some people appear to have forgotten one of the very simple lessons of life which is that "Cream will always rise to the top"

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Some people don't want the cream to rise to the top.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Some people don't want the cream to rise to the top.

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Because they think it stifles competition.

Quite barmy!!

Report from Mikko Hirvonen Fanclub trip to NZ (in German):

http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index...e_der_Welt.htm

Greetinx

All my 2008 Rally NZ pics are now up.

http://gallery.wrcfm.com/

About 780 pics from 2008 :D

Awesome rally! I had so much fun running around and getting muddy! (not so much fun trying not the be charged at by a bull.. that was scary) But I'd reccomend it to anyone.

I ended up staying at the ibis hotel, which is where all the Mechanics and other miscellaneous team people were and it was such a great opportunity to speak to the people who work behind the scenes. The Suzuki boys were lovely and even had me up on their shipping container to watch the superspecial! It did feel kind of odd though opening the hotel room door in the morning and finding out that your neighbour is Toni Gardemeister!

It all went a bit very wrong for ford on the last day though huh? they were pretty bummed by it all.. But some booze and a dancefloor seemed to lift their spirits! I even took a spin with Malcolm! I never thought i'd ever see someone like him cutting shapes in a bar called Coyote..

Dingardo, i just looked at your shots (nice by the way..) And i think we were at the same point on SS1. Big S-bend type thing? First corner had a large bank on the inside (which i stood on top of) and then it went down to a sweeping left hander then around a right hander and out of view? A couple of helicopters dropped in just before the stage started. it was about half an hour walk into the stage from the start i think.. I doubt you can recognise it from this shot, but here is what i got at that corner: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...0&id=504459086

Also.. i thought this vid was funny.. http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=wRBztfV4x00 Love what he does with the bumper at the end!