What good is freedom if it gets you killed or forces you to stay at home because it's too dangerous to go outside?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
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What good is freedom if it gets you killed or forces you to stay at home because it's too dangerous to go outside?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Sorry, I thought you were one of those who believed Saddam was a radical Muslim who ate Christians for breakfast. There seemed to be a lot of them before and during the invasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Very possibly he would have, but there was no immediate threat IMO. The West could well have continued to try to sort out the problem with diplomatic means. There was no pressing need to invade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I appreciate that, but military intervention by a foreign power is simply not the way to spread democracy. It just doesn't work like that, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The way to replace a dictatorship with a democracy is to fund and educate the opposition, and help the population out of the information lock-out by broadcasting international radio and television into the country. That's the way it's been done for decades - that's the way it works!
I agree, also it's maybe good to remember that the baltic countries, was quite well of before the russians took over also, so they did know something about how good life can be, the same you cant say about Kazakstan and the others in that region, they can not be called democracies, those countries are now a complete mess, with heavy corruption and political problems too, also their geopolitic position is not the best possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
yes, peace & order is alive in Iraq ... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by agwiii
no-one is being murdered by car bombings, roadside bombs or suicide bombers ...
men with guns & missle launchers aren't killing the Iraqi citizens or American soldiers,
Iraq is a democracy, all is peaches & cream now. :rolleyes:
If you really believe Iraq is in a good state you & people like you need to wake up ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forum...ongue-anim.gif
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Originally Posted by Eki
Agreed, good point. Except for one thing. You are now saying that Iraqi's are incapable of running their own nation except at the point of a gun? Maybe then the problem truly lies in that nation. I know this much. Despite the odd incident of US Soldiers overstepping human decency (they are caught and punished for it wherever possible), they have tried to stop the violence. Now Hussein's oppressive rule did keep a lid on things. Dictatorships do that, but again, at some point, if you are not killed by street violence, you would be killed for sure in one of Hussein's pointless attacks on his own people (in the case of the Kurds, who have peaceful streets today) or having your kids drafted to fight in a war and slaughtered (the Iranian invasion, Kuwait). The way things are now, if the government that eventually takes over completely in Iraq isn't a true democracy, at least on some level it will have to be better than the autocratic thug they just hung last week.
Your condemnation of this war ignores the basic reality that these people were not living a life of safety and peace before.
They were not. They were starved, oppressed and abused for the benefit of a select few. The actions of their leader led the world to place sanctions on the country starving it of much, and when there was money, he took it. Some peace....some security. Eki, you wouldn't live in Finland if it was run like that. You are however, quite happy to see someone else live like that. That is the difference between you and me, I would rather see someone fight for their freedom, or have help in doing it.
The average Iraqi on the street didn't hate the Americans when they arrived. What has happened afterwards has been American mismanagement, but hey, they are not good at conquering people such as the USSR or Saddam Hussein. They let people move around and terrorists are taking advantage of it. I guess the Americans should be condemned for not clamping the whole country in irons as Saddam did to keep the peace?
Studiose said it right. The US and Britain had good intentions, and were misled by bad intelligence, the same intelligence that Clinton had in 98, the same intelligence that had the UN wanting more inspections, the same intellegence the French were giving to the UK before they decided they wanted to deny the UN actually having the force to do something. The Chinese and Russians would just rather do business with Iraq, for they dont' seem to really care much about freedom in their own nations, so why would they loose sleep over anything Hussein did? Nice world we have....If you do something you are condemened, and if you do nothing, you are aiding and abetting a dictatorial regime. No one said it was easy...
Well, I for one am certainly not advocating isolationism and not caring about world affairs, but if you take it on yourself to change the world with something as drastic as a war, you'd bloody well better get it right. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions..."
Studiose, you and I can agree on that. That said, once the china is broken, there is no point in condemning those who dropped the china dish.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
I do think however that Iraq's daily situation is not entirely as dire as it can sound. It isn't to say there is no carnage there, a fool would disupte it is truly peaceful everywhere, but 90% of the headlines are coming from the Sunni section of the country. The Shiites and Sunnis have hated each other for years, and terror groups from both camps, plus Al Quaida and Iranian meddling have spurred on this tit for tat terror campaign, with the radicals obviously trying to create a civil war.
The American people, their government and their Media would all love to see the US Military out of Iraq, for it has been an expensive exercise. That said, to leave now would be more irresponsible. Listen, if the Iraqi people want the Americans out, just stop bombing, shooting and looting each other for 6 months. I guarntee with that, Bush will have no choice but to pull the 250000 military personnel out. Contrary to popular European belief, Americans have no real interest in conquest and colonial entanglements. They have tradtionally tied themselves in knots trying to stay out of wars other nations jumped right into, and as Vietnam and Iraq have proven, the American people do not like long fights with somewhat dubious results.
No, the path to hell is paved with good intentions, but I can also say that good intentions are better than indifference to pain and suffering. Just how you act on those intentions is the issue. Eki's silence on how Saddam treated his own people and the obvious callous disregard for his country's future says volumes about how he feels. IT is become obvious to me he would rather brand a somewhat inept US president with good intentions as the true villian.
The Kurds and the Shiite weren't killed unless they rose against Saddam's regime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
BTW, it was an Iraqi invasion in Kuwait, not Iranian. I don't remember Iranians invade anyone.
Why always make so big fuss about Iran and Al Quaida influence in Iraq, its about the same as Polish influence in the invation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
What comes to how long usa will stay in Iraq, I think its only a matter of time until usa ask Iraq "government" to ask them to build permanent bases there, the official reason will propably be "the treath from Iran" or something like that, the demonising of Iran has already started a way back in the same way it started before the Iraq invation, funny how people swallow the same sh!t once again without chewing.