Agreed - one of the better posts as of late. Love the bit about the TG haters. God knows that there are other CC forums that live by the F* TG and BE motto.
Like the thread starter, i too love the racing in CC.
Cy
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Agreed - one of the better posts as of late. Love the bit about the TG haters. God knows that there are other CC forums that live by the F* TG and BE motto.
Like the thread starter, i too love the racing in CC.
Cy
TG and the IRL are not in a good position right now. Their plan to turn the IRL into CART-lite is failing. It will never be successful. Losing ovals and adding road and street races will be their downfall. From the beginning TG has fragmented the fan base with the creation of the IRL, and he keeps on doing with every attempt to try to make the IRL the old CART. He has taken teams ,drivers and tracks and nothing has worked.The road courses Sonoma and WG are not successful. Since Honda has secured St Pete and MId-Ohio, ALMS will continue to run at these venues with or without IRL. Same goes for Detroit, clearly, the freebie ticket holders showed up for the race on Sunday and it wasn't full. That event can always remain an ALMS venue with RP in that series regardless if IRL is there or not.In TG's attempt to copy CART he taken some the worst parts of it and the fans aren't following. The CARS are slow and old. The new car is not an option right now because the manufacturer situation remains unclear.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan-veteran
TG is too far behind and doesn't have enough options to even come close to being successful as CART was.The fans will never follow. Besides ,all things you mentioned are already in CC along with a paying fan base.
keep wishin' and hopin'.
Dr. Jack, I don't know whose horse you rode in on, and I have no idea why you dropped this little hand grenade in everyone's laps, but I thank you for it. One hundred and Ninety Three posts and we are still going at it.
First off, I wont breakdown your thoughts ( I know you are reading it you sneaky little devil, curiousity would have you look back to see what people thought of your post) but I will say you are dead on the money when you say that the IRL has NASCAR envy and CCWS has f1 Envy. It has been my contention all along that they should have CART envy, and now that the IRL is slowly coming to the realization a few ovals work, and a lot of other events can work, they are starting to turn their corner. Despite all the spin and propaganda by our friend Sanguin, that is happening. I don't have to like it, but I wont ignore it either.
CCWS is now on some new search for sanctioning fees, while events over here are slowly sliding if they are not making money. That in itself would be fine if the series was a) more well off and b) not losing a lot of good will and PR happiness when they do go. Vegas I suspect is on shakier legs than people will admit ( when the same guy deep sixes Phoenix in the way he did, you have to be nervous about another start up in Vegas) and if it goes, it is proof positive that CCWS doesn't care about its American partners. If THAT perception gets out there, it is GAME OVER people.
This series is American. Based in Indianapolis, its roots are there, and despite all the spin and bluster, its roots and history that is wants to deny at times are still there. If it becomes a world wide globe trotter, it better have someone paying the bills. We know KK isn't interested in paying them. Their TV contracts are a joke, and they have no national PR prescence. The IRL, for all its warts, promotes like crazy. Coming home Saturday morning, I heard Gene Simmons and later Marty Roth being interviewed about the IRL on FAN590, in Toronto. Now I have little time for either when it comes to racing, but the point is, the FAN hasn't had anyone from Champ Car on since the day the SteelBack GP left town. Not likely to either. The IRL promotes like mad, and uses whatever it can, and they stuck this right into the heart of Champ Car loyal Toronto on the main sports station. It is the little things like that that Champ Car is missing.
In their need to try to make money on EVERY event, they are not putting any money to the greater series promotion. What is more, the teams I don't think are getting much out of the overseas races, whereas we all have read about KK and the Amigo's getting their cake. Dale Coyne gets NOTHING out of racing in Europe, yet he goes, because that is what footsoldiers do.
No, What happens next is up to fate, but Dr. Jack is right to cast a jaundiced eye on the JDS/Uniphase thing and wonder. KK is up to his arms in that one, and while not convicted, the MO looks similar. Lots of Sizzle, little steak, and the big investors walked and cashed out while the little guy took a beat down. Right now we have CCWS ownership taking profit off events where they can, buying up proven assets such as Cosworth and a few events that will fill their pockets, but there is no steak to sell. There is no there there. You have no marketing plan, lousy TV rights ( in a sport that LIVES or DIES by TV money and exposure for the team sponsors ) and a product that isn't unique anymore. CART was unique. Different chassis, different tracks, AMERICAN in focus and with a few ovals to provide some scary speeds, followed up with excellent events on road and street courses. The fact the IRL ditched their old premise and is now emulating CART is great fun for me, since I called this one from the start that this is where TG was going, it just took him about a decade to figure it out ( I never said Tony was bright, I just know he is rich and venal).
The winner of this "war" will be the one that survives, and right now, for the first time in 12 years I think I know it wont be CCWS. I didn't say I want this outcome, but my once optimisitic outlook (look at old posts, or ask other members, and they will tell you I have stood by this series loyally for as long as I have posted here, and joined CCF for about 10 minutes before I realized they were a little nuts over there)is now gone.
In the future, I see maybe one, maybe two CCWS teams either fold or leave to go elsewhere. Not going to speculate who, but when the fight is this hard to survive, and then you have to learn to operate and BUY a new car while holding out hope you can find sponsors, it has to be taking a toll.
If we lose a team, hopefully we gain a couple. Europe might pay off, but unless it pays big in sponsors or new richer teams, it will not do much but line KK and the Amigo's depleted pockets. I predict one of the Amigo's will get out, and GF is the likely candidate. A new Sugar Daddy might come along, we shall see.
I believe we will lose one more event on the schedule, for it is just my opinion, but Vegas is vulernable. I have read too much, and notice who the promotor is to trust this guy as far as I can throw him. He will leave CC at the altar and make them look stupid again, and yet it will somehow be seen as a triumph to Sanguin, who is now officially trying to become the best unpaid employee of the organization.
I believe Steve Johnson will be heaved overboard. Good riddance....
I believe Cotman, and others will do excellent work trying to keep the pumps working as the ship is listing. I believe that Champ Car soldiers on for one more season, with mixed results.
Unless there is new ownership money and compentant leadership, this ship will go down. It isn't what I wish, but I feel that is the course we are seeing. You are seeing quick snap decisions to minimize losses being made when this series may require a lot more capital into marketing and PR. God knows they cant even keep the website up to date and useful at times, and if you cant get that right, what other PR mistakes are you making?
No, I don't see a bright future...but there is one if steps are taken.
AS for the IRL, well, I am on this forum, but lets just say they are not going away, but they are not getting much bigger...but they keep inching along, making forward progress. Instead of going for the long bomb, it seems TG has a bit of a ground game going now.....
So, what happens next - my answer:
possibility one - after 2 or 3 years TG will by the CCWS series assets and we will have one big AOW series - IRL or IndyCar, with about 20 races and 26 cars on the grid. Is it good or bad - i think not bad, or at least better than now. Very likely IRL will introduce a new rules and new car(s).
possibility two - CCWS survives, finds it's own identity and becomes a well spread world series based in USA. For those participants who want to race/take part with a very fast OW cars , don't have a chance (or maybe even a desire) to participate in F1 and don't want to race on ovals.
He probably missed your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
Fan Veteran, despite all the crap you will hear here, option 1 is a greater likelyhood. When CCWS's ownership group realizes it will be a long slog to make serious money on going international, they will be looking for a way out. Paul Gentilozzi would sell out his mom for the right price, so I cant see him not listening to an offer from TG, and that goes for KK at some point as well. GF and Petit are the only two of the 4 names connected to the ownership that seem to have principles about NOT selling to Tony, but I know they like money too.
If CCWS makes it as F1 lite, by going to markets F1 is ignoring, remember A1GP is trying that...and it is losing money hand over fist. Now the product is different, but I find A1 races a hoot to watch, and unlike Champ Car, I can find them easily on Speed every winter. Even with that, they are getting clobbered. Different business model, but I have to believe that the only way you get rich by racing all over the orld is to start off really rich. Only f1 can pull it off, and they don't live in the real world anyhow.....
In 2003, although Pook spent millions....I think he did better than SJ/KK this year. He tried to establish this series to its standards, not the desperation to as it is now. He kept 18-19 scheduled event (although California was cancelled due to the socal brushfire). The lineup of drivers were kept to 19 cars. CART name was still known next to F1 and NASCAR. IRL then was unprecedented series. He spent money to put the series in CSI Miami and promote it to an extent but the money stopped flowing. That's the sad part because the new owners made the series so cheap and amateur. They cancelled races and replaced the good tracks. On top of that, Pook proved that his lies weren't as bad as the current management, I tell you that.
I believe that CCWS may become a much cheaper and much better semi-alternative to F1. Why a semi-alternative you may ask - it is obvious - because they are a very fast OW cars, next faster to F1, and have an option even be the fastest (excluding some exotics like dragsters). Also - there are not ovals. The lack of ovals is good (safety, cost issues in case of crashes, more world-wide-friendly for spectators, more driver-interest-friendly to participate) and bad (lack of exotics). But there is exotics in street circuits and it should be developed and explored.
But as the "spec cars" have their great advantages, they also have a disadvantage - no manufacturers could "enter" the series (you know that). If the rules are so restrictive to allow different manufacturers, but to provide almost identical cars then what will be the interest of participating (at least a big issues), and more important - the costs will go up.
So the series will be in this case like-amateur, but not so amateurish - because no amateur (or tunning maniac) could design and manufacture so fast, safe, reliable car (at that cost).
You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.
TG doesn't have a chance.
CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!! That is the most disingenuous post I've ever read.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin