Is There a God?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

So let's cut the crap, do you think that your car runs on holly ghost instead of fuel, on a cycle based on basic physics principles? Looking forward to a clear and factual answer no daydreaming.

---

But let's face facts. The vast majority of people wouldn't know that a car runs on fuel unless they read about it in a book. It's not as if all people with an understanding of the internal combustion engine found the same conclusion by tinkering with one. Instead they read about it, form an understanding of it, and then put it into practice.

There are very, very few things that are absolutes that a person learns on their own from life experiences. Most of what we do learn is passed down as second hand information, and a great deal of that comes from books.

It doesn't sound to me like there is a lot of difference between that and the various religious texts. ;)



Once again I find it interesting that those without belief seem to insult any of those with belief so quickly, and discard their views as rubbish. Yet they cling to their beliefs as having not been influened by others which in many cases could easily be proven to not be true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Spare us the sanctimonious drivel at the start of those comments, said as though Christians have a monopoly on being humble. The rest of it is what's important, and it betrays a far from humble attitude, which directly contradicts your denial of supposed superiority.



Again you fail to answer the question, perhaps because you are afraid to say in public what I would suggest you think — namely that the superior reasoning (for that is what it is) with which you credit believers only applies to those who share your own religious beliefs.

---

Maybe it's just me, but you are doing nothing but putting words in his mouth, and contradicting what he has actually stated. If you are going to debate based on complete assumptions, then you aren't dealing with facts. It's rather difficult to defend something you have never said. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

There are very, very few things that are absolutes that a person learns on their own from life experiences. Most of what we do learn is passed down as second hand information, and a great deal of that comes from books.

It doesn't sound to me like there is a lot of difference between that and the various religious texts. ;)

---

A slightly important difference is the way in which the tenets of belief are expected to be taken at face value (unless one belongs to the modern school of thought which suggests that they are merely parables). To take this example of the internal combustion engine, its workings can be researched and a conclusion reached on that basis. Research as to whether water can be turned into wine as if by magic would probably indicate that the Bible cannot stand such detailed scrutiny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

Once again I find it interesting that those without belief seem to insult any of those with belief so quickly, and discard their views as rubbish. Yet they cling to their beliefs as having not been influened by others which in many cases could easily be proven to not be true.

---

Excuse me, but those of us who are non-believers keep on being told that we lack a certain 'something' in our powers of reasoning, which those of faith mysteriously possess. Quite insulting in its own way.

Do you not agree with the concept of fact?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

There are very, very few things that are absolutes that a person learns on their own from life experiences. Most of what we do learn is passed down as second hand information, and a great deal of that comes from books.

It doesn't sound to me like there is a lot of difference between that and the various religious texts. ;)

---

The obvious difference of course is the age of the text. The bible was written by people whose understanding of how the universe works was primitive compared to ours, and mostly just plain wrong. Are we really supposed to accept divine "truths" from people who thought the Earth was a disc, and the Sun went around it? Isn't that a bit like asking your cat to teach you how to play chess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

Maybe it's just me, but you are doing nothing but putting words in his mouth, and contradicting what he has actually stated. If you are going to debate based on complete assumptions, then you aren't dealing with facts. It's rather difficult to defend something you have never said. ;)

---

Please inform me as to where I have done this. Let's spare the semantics — he is saying that those with religious beliefs are, on certain grounds, superior to those without. I don't see how his words could be interpreted any other way, except by those who share his point of view and seek to justify it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Christianity is humble?

Many of the practices that christians take part in, such as praying, are anything but humble. It actually assumes that given the impossible size of the universe and all of the species that have ever existed, god actually wants to have a personal relationship with you and is willing to change his 'devine plan' if you pray to him. That is what I call arrogance and selfishness.

---

If you think praying is self centered, then surely you can give examples in which aetheists and agnostics accept their place of being inferior in the world, and acknowledge and gives thanks to the person they consider their primary form of guidance? If sitting before a meal and giving thanks for that meal is arrogant and selfish, how does not displaying thanks for it make one less arrogant?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by studiose

The obvious difference of course is the age of the text. The bible was written by people whose understanding of how the universe works was primitive compared to ours, and mostly just plain wrong. Are we really supposed to accept divine "truths" from people who thought the Earth was a disc, and the Sun went around it? Isn't that a bit like asking your cat to teach you how to play chess?

---

Exactly. I know nothing of quantum physics, so wouldn't expect any views I were to offer on the subject to be considered of the slightest value, or even worth listening to. Those of an expert in the field should quite rightly be given more weight. Yet some of the arguments being deployed here would seek to deny the superiority of genuine knowledge and expertise. Were I to say I passionately believe that the secret of the universe is to be found in cat urine, I would expect to be laughed out of sight, yet apparently I'm wrong about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

If you think praying is self centered, then surely you can give examples in which aetheists and agnostics accept their place of being inferior in the world, and acknowledge and gives thanks to the person they consider their primary form of guidance? If sitting before a meal and giving thanks for that meal is arrogant and selfish, how does not displaying thanks for it make one less arrogant?

---

I don't consider myself as an atheist inherently superior to anyone merely on the grounds of my not believing in God. I consider my lack of belief in God to be accurate and those who believe that one exists to be inaccurate, but it goes no further — unlike the views of those who consider that, somehow, I am lacking certain qualities simply because I have made up my mind to be a non-believer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

I am heading up to see my Step Father today as we were told a couple of days ago his Leukaemia has reached its final stages. Knowing how depressed and frightened he is by the prospect of his battle coming to a sad end, nothing has convinced me more that god does not exist. I just can't get my head around what is happening and why it is allowed to happen.

I say live your life the way you want to, but be aware of the feelings of others while you do it. Everyone has a fair sense of right and wrong whether they obey it or not. Eat healthily, exercise often as only you have a hand in your future along normal lines. Following the guidance from religion is fine by me as it can produce strong moral values, but I fear for people who think it determines their destiny by their level of committment to it. Thats just my opinion.

---

One of the most respectful post in this entire thread IMO. I find no reason to insult another if they form their opinons and beliefs on a basis other than the one I use. At the end of the day people from all walks of life and belief systems can be very good or very bad people. I just try to surround myself with only good people, as there is enough bad and evil in the world already.

I'm sincerely sorry to here about the situation with your father in law Henners. It can be very taxing to deal with such things but sometimes for whatever reason miracles can and do happen. And if they don't the only thing people can do is use the time left to let those ill know they were cared about, appreciated, and loved. I certainly hope that the day I take my final breaths I am at peace with myself and those around me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

One of the most respectful post in this entire thread IMO. I find no reason to insult another if they form their opinons and beliefs on a basis other than the one I use.

---

I see no insults; what I see here are differences of opinion. I also see a lot of perfectly legitimate questions being avoided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

I'm sincerely sorry to here about the situation with your father in law Henners. It can be very taxing to deal with such things but sometimes for whatever reason miracles can and do happen.

---

Can you answer why the God who supposedly makes possible such miracles also allows people to fall ill in the first place, and on what basis certain individuals are allegedly 'chosen' to be the subject of 'miraculous' cures whereas others suffer a horrible death?