Nuclear Power is not going away.......or is it?

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The items that need a power source are the battery powered tools now common and being hyped by hard-ware stores. Oddly, but not really, to make the truly useful they would be sold with a converter so when the battery goes dead all one would have to do is plug into an outlet, but no one has ever offered that yet.

More people have been killed by airbags in the past twenty years than have been killed by oil well problems, and the numbers between coal mines and air-bags are probably closer than anyone would admit.
Ban airbags.

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I have both kinds of drill , Bob , as both have limitations .

11 people died in the initial explosion on the BP rig , and they are still cleaning it up .
Chemical dispersants may be worse than the oil , itself , on the marine environment .
What's the cost of that clean-up ?
What's the cost to the tourism economy when the beach was covered in tar balls and stunk like a refinery ?

What's the cost of the global shading that occurs mid-atlantic , due to the carbon particles emitted by plants on the eastern seaboard , that has seen the north of Africa without rain for the last twenty or so years ?



I do understand your cynical tone , Bob .

We have good reason to believe that we have had a serious effect on this planet , and that there will be a turning point , both economically and environmentally , when oil and coal are no longer viable .

A friend of mine recently visited Shanghai .
It had an ugly grey sky , but he saw some light in it all , if you'll pardon the pun .
On every roof was an array of solar tubes , heating water for domestic and heating use .
We went for an hour long ride on a bullet train to get to his destination , still within Shanghai , and said he never saw a roof without them .

That's progress , albeit still with a grey skyline , driven by money .

How much do you pay to heat your water ?
I paid $1,500 for my solar tubes .

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Originally Posted by Mark

It's not just the batteries themselves that have that issue. Even in the UK car inside of the car needs to be heated for at least 4 months of the year, with petrol/diesel engines we don't think about that because the heat comes for 'free', but with all electric that isn't the case of course. I do wonder in milage ranges for electric cars they ever factor this in.

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That's why I mentioned my parka , Mark .

In winter here , where we can get -40C which is also -40F , batteries would need indoor storage , and really good insulation to be viable .
That part is doable , for sure .

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The really weird thing about heaters generally is that usually heat is a waste product, but with a heater that is its raison d'être.

The question for any private transport is how to carry your energy supply with you, and that is why a petrol/diesel engine is so effective. Lots of power in a relatively compact package with a carryable energy supply.
If we were to swtich en masse to driving electric cars, then what would be wrong with installing overhead wires everywhere and making cars run with pantographs like trolley buses or trams?
I think I remember seeing something similar to that in the Super Mario Bros. movie.

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Back when oil was running more freely , GM and big oil bought out most of the urban rail systems across the US . Diesel bus became the norm .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

What's the cost of an oil spill , a rather pertinent question on the anniversary of the BP disaster ?
What's the cost of a coal mine fire ?

Do you take that into account , too ?


You're right about the cold weather being an obstacle for battery cars .
The batteries , themselves would need heating in many cases , and heat is not cheap , in terms of battery life .

At present , it'd be tough to do between the start of December and the end of March .
Tough , even with a good parka , but doable .

I'm not sure I understood your second paragraph .
How are the turbines being sold at local hardware stores dependent on a permanent power source ?

On that side note , I recently read an article in Home Power magazine that talked about all those old wind pumpers , and whether they are worth the trouble to re-vamp or re-purpose .
The gearing mechanism , while made to last , and really robust , is what goes first , because it's up there in the weather .
That's what usually kills them .
But , after many years up , it's not the only issue .

Once it has stopped spinning , and been furled , to take it "out of the wind" , you'll notice , eventually , the blades fall off .
They are held on by bolts not dissimilar to those holding all the joints in the structure , itself .

So , you can cut those "pie-holes" some slack , as , often , it's un-wise to even climb the thing , let alone expect it to still be able withstand the added drag replacing the blades or replacing the whole head would create .
Your cousin must have been working with pumpers that still had a little galvanizing left on them .

I do see a few new ones going up here and there in my travels locally , many to feed small ponds for both the esthetic and for livestock watering .
It's one of the "old ways" that I'm glad to see coming back .

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great post - another good reason to relocate to Costa Rica

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Originally Posted by Roamy

great post - another good reason to relocate to Costa Rica

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I take it you don't have a parka .

It'd be really easy in Santa Fe , lil cowpoke .
"That big ol' sun never loses it's poop in them parts ." my buddy , Mick used to say .
You should be able to find panels at less than a buck a watt .

That's cheaper than a three legged mule .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Back when oil was running more freely , GM and big oil bought out most of the urban rail systems across the US . Diesel bus became the norm .

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That is a fact but not it was more of paying off politicians to shut them down.
Some one was convicted and if I remember correctly, his punishment was about equal to a parking fine.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

That is a fact but not it was more of paying off politicians to shut them down.
Some one was convicted and if I remember correctly, his punishment was about equal to a parking fine.

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And , it really isn't until now that we start to realize how much damage that it has done .
That's a lot of diesel , Bob .

In those days , hydro-electric power made the future bright , but oil still secured themselves a future in the background .


It's over $1.40/litre here right now . It's approaching $100.00 to fill the mini-van .

The Mennonites around me get 20miles/quarter bale of hay and a cup of oats . There's no heater , but if you take a half a dozen bricks , warmed on the woodstove before you leave , and lay them on the floor of the wagon , they'll keep your feet warm under the blanket over your lap .

As it happens , we can learn a few things from those folks .
I got all my solar equipment from a fellow in that community .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , it really isn't until now that we start to realize how much damage that it has done .
That's a lot of diesel , Bob .

In those days , hydro-electric power made the future bright , but oil still secured themselves a future in the background .

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In Minn. hydro has always been a minor player.

My home town had a dam until two years ago, that had once powered a mill. All the major duct work was/ is still there. Now it has been turned into a glorified rapids, and the flood gate that was used has been closed so if we get a flood as big as 1965 all the water will be forced through one channel and if large ice chunks are present they will hit the bridge.

The same town has two power plants, one was steam powered but some dim-wit decided that diesel engines were better so all the steam engines were replaced with diesel and then they decided a natural gas powered turbine was better yet so the closed, but not yet dismantled the diesel site and built to turbine powered units, which they found out were too expensive so now they have to buy power.
There is no one capable of running the diesel plant as the city is run by the usual cluster-f type people so hiring people to run the diesel plant is not even being considered.

This same town once had three railroads and until the seventies one could by a ticket, on the day the last operating one ran, that would drop one off in the middle of Minneapolis, a block from the Greyhound station, but few used it. As with too may railroads in the U.S. in the eighties, closing lines was considered more profitable than improving line.

We also had a daily Greyhound bus service that died from lack of use.

3M which has one of the largest plants in my home town, built a bridge and rail-yard to use the railroad plus a new very large grain elevator was built for the farm CO-OP but the railroad made many promises that were the usual hot-air.

The city I am in right now writing this, had a hydro dam, that was closed, I think, after the '65 floods damaged it. No one wanted to spend the money, but suprisingly about ten years ago, as electricity prices were going up, some truly bright people decided it was worth the effort to rebuild it and did.
It is not a very large unit but it helps.

Unfortunately a very large much need coal plant that was to be built on the North Dakota-Minn. border was killed by people whose only connection to the area was hatred for the coal that would have reduced their cost for electricity. They did/do not give a damn that the lack of power up there is driving prices up in an area where the cost of living already is high due to remoteness, but then the liberals who helped kill it do not have the balls to go live up there where -30 F is the norm in the winter.

I own a mill , Bob .
Built in 1872 , it was a woolen mill , one of three mills in close proximity .

The other two are at the dam , and mine is the first downstream , once fed by a 36" penstock from the grist mill on my side .
When levels dropped , and my mill couldn't be supplied , they stoked up a coal fired steam boiler, which amply supplied the mill's looms and such .

They supplied the area's pioneers with tweed blankets .

And , not long after the turn of that century , they were made redundant , as cheaper goods came in with new roads and rails .

I'm told there's a 52" turbine down in the bottom , buried soundly in the silt .


Some might wonder why I wouldn't bring it back into service , but there's a bigger problem with which to deal before it could ever be possible .
The river is not the same .

It's fed , originally , by a huge swamp , which , in times past would release it's water slowly , making for a full millpond for a long way into the summer .
Today , with so many acres clear , the water runs much faster into the river .
Even more devastating than the loss of trees , is the speed at which our land is being tile drained , in an effort to grab any last inch of space to plant crops . That makes the water disappear faster every year , and dumps huge amounts of "effluent" into the river .


I do have plans to cover the roof in solar , though .

"...only connection to the area was hatred for the coal that would have reduced their cost for electricity."

The haters wanted clean air , Bob .
They understood that fossil cost .

"I used to be such a fool , runnin' around on fossil fuel , 'til I could see what I was doin' , was runnin' down that road to ruin .
Damn this traffic jam . How I hates to be late . Hurts my motor to go so slow . Time I get home , my supper be cold . " -James Taylor .

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Originally Posted by Mark

Presumably the cost? Just look at how many railway lines in the UK still remain unelectrified, when there are relatively few railways about the place.

A more sensible suggestion I've seen is fitting magnetic induction lines under the road surface of major roads so that if you are on a main road your car will be charging up as you go along, it can then use this power when you turn off onto unelectrified roads. Still, the infrastructure costs would be massive and you still have to have an alternative power source if you are travelling off-grid for longer than your charge holds.

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I do remember some clever folk in the US that are working on paint on lasers and some other working on paint on PV Solar. One of the applications was on roadways so that they could get solar power from roads.