Singapore 2008: Briatore and Symmonds resign

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Originally Posted by ioan

First of all you don't know much about any of the data and thus, as I pointed it out, saying that in one case there was more data than in the other is a bit far fetched IMO.

Also saying that the 780 pages of documentation about the F2007 would fit in 5-6 Mbytes is a very wild guess.

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I don't know whether it's worth pointing out that 780 pages would easily fit on 5-6 Meg but it will easily. If you take about 10k for a sheet of PDF for example, you can easily store it on a single floppy so 5-6 mb is plenty. However, that's by the by.

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If you go back and read the articles about the two case, written back in 2007, you'll find it was discussed in the press what those disks at Renault contained and it wasn't about the whole car, just certain systems.

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It is said by Renault what was on the disk and what was returned to McLaren. From memory it was suspension, fuel and something else. It was also said by Renault that a couple of people may have glanced at a couple of low res diagrams but not acted on it. Bit like the old "I didn't inhale" one that :laugh:

IF nobody used any of the data, why then did Macreth immediatly start work on a fuel project when he moved from McLaren even though he had no experience whatsoever on Fuel systems???

Then we have to remember how this came to light. It was from a relitivly junior engineer that joined McLaren from Renault who mentioned that they had all seen the McLaren data for the last year or so.

Renault have been caught in the cookie jar and been exposed as liars on just these 2 points so I suggest instead of raising the ugly matter, you do what everyone else is trying to do and let sleeping dogs lay. I can see no good whatsoever in dragging Renault through the mud as has happened to McLaren but don't try and gloss over it as if it was nothing.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I don't know whether it's worth pointing out that 780 pages would easily fit on 5-6 Meg but it will easily. If you take about 10k for a sheet of PDF for example, you can easily store it on a single floppy so 5-6 mb is plenty. However, that's by the by.

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It's just that we aren't talking about text in PDF format here but about more complex data that most probably needs more storage than a couple kb per page, which page would probably not be A4 either.

Anyways as you point it out yourself the data that Renault had about the McLaren was only about a few systems, which contradicts Henners' claims that it was more than what McLaren had about the F2007, which was pretty much everything about the car down to the smallest detail.

And BTW I agree that Renault engineers certainly took advantage of the data in the very same way the McLaren ones' did with the Ferrari data, ie started integrating the solutions to their cars ASAP. I'm also fairly sure that McLaren getting away with a fine and Renault getting away with a slap on the wrist had all to do with a certain Ecclestone protecting his pockets.

However, did the FIA say anything about revisiting Renault if they smell something fishy related to them?

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Originally Posted by ioan

It's just that we aren't talking about text in PDF format here but about more complex data that most probably needs more storage than a couple kb per page, which page would probably not be A4 either.

Anyways as you point it out yourself the data that Renault had about the McLaren was only about a few systems, which contradicts Henners' claims that it was more than what McLaren had about the F2007, which was pretty much everything about the car down to the smallest detail.

And BTW I agree that Renault engineers certainly took advantage of the data in the very same way the McLaren ones' did with the Ferrari data, ie started integrating the solutions to their cars ASAP. I'm also fairly sure that McLaren getting away with a fine and Renault getting away with a slap on the wrist had all to do with a certain Ecclestone protecting his pockets.

However, did the FIA say anything about revisiting Renault if they smell something fishy related to them?

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I'm sorry ioan but you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that they had a few systems. I said Renault only admitted to having access to 4 systems and were proven to be liars in the rest of the statement so I have no reason to believe them on that point.

So, I don't contradict Henners claim at all and because they were never properly investigated by the FIA, cannot provide the evidence that should be availiable to confirm or deny what they had access to.

I do agree that Renault began incorporating the data into the car ASAP as proven by PM's work on the fuel project but as far as the McLaren goes, the FIA pulled the car apart and went through it with a fine tooth comb looking for evidence of Ferrari IP and found none.

Lastly, I don't think there is any suggestion that the FIA are going to reinvestigate (or investigate in the first place) this debarcle but merely suggested that the way Max's FIA works, if they can't nail Renault for CrashGate, they may well reopen WhitewashGate.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

If Renault are found guilty I hope the punishment isn't too harsh. Ultimately, all they did was cleverly use the then-ludicrous SC rules to their advantage.

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I disagree totally. They didn't just take advantage of the (admittedly daft) safety car rule, they are alleged to have deliberately engineered the situation which resulted in the appearance of the SC in the first place.

If this wasn't bad enough, it's alleged that they did so by deliberately instructing their driver to crash; and no matter how safe ioan thinks that may have been it would have posed a totally avoidable risk to following cars, track workers, and Piquet himself.

If (big "if") there's truth behind this then I can't think of a punishment serious enough.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

I disagree totally. They didn't just take advantage of the (admittedly daft) safety car rule, they are alleged to have deliberately engineered the situation which resulted in the appearance of the SC in the first place.

If this wasn't bad enough, it's alleged that they did so by deliberately instructing their driver to crash; and no matter how safe ioan thinks that may have been it would have posed a totally avoidable risk to following cars, track workers, and Piquet himself.

If (big "if") there's truth behind this then I can't think of a punishment serious enough.

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:up:

What if a wheel flew off to kill a Marshall or a suspension part sprang back injuring another driver.

In looking at this (potential) incident, you have to consider the very real risks that could have resulted.

If I do 35mph in a 30mph zone, I get 3 points and a £60 fine. If I do the same after consuming 3 pints of "old Rumble Guts" then the punishment is likely to be 18 month ban and £1000 fine because of the seriousness of my actions.

If there is a case to answer and they someone is guilty, I wouldn't want to see them back in Motorsport if I was a competitor.

If this had occurred forty or fifty years ago we'd be treating it as a humorous tale of derring-do.

Everyone's hysterical nowadays.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

If this had occurred forty or fifty years ago we'd be treating it as a humorous tale of derring-do.

Everyone's hysterical nowadays.

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This would never have been treated as a tale of Derring-do 3b.

In all forms of Motorsport, you have to trust your life to other people and drivers. It's a hard sport with no quarter asked or given but you have to rely on your rivals not to kill you.

I really cannot see how anyone could possibly condone this act (if it's proven) as anything but the most diabolical act of cheating in Motorsport. It is akin to the Bloodgate incident at Harliquinns or Ben Johnson in Sprinting.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

This would never have been treated as a tale of Derring-do 3b.

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Wouldnt it? People still talk with nostalgic affection about 'Black' Jack Brabham putting a wheel off-course in order to flick stones at the chasing pack.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

In all forms of Motorsport, you have to trust your life to other people and drivers. It's a hard sport with no quarter asked or given but you have to rely on your rivals not to kill you.

I really cannot see how anyone could possibly condone this act (if it's proven) as anything but the most diabolical act of cheating in Motorsport. It is akin to the Bloodgate incident at Harliquinns or Ben Johnson in Sprinting.

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Presumably you would have supported life bans for Senna and Schumacher from '90 and '94 respectively?

And I'm not condoning what Renault are alledged to have done. If it turns out to be true then they deserve to be sanctioned, but not to anything like the degree being suggested elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Wouldnt it? People still talk with nostalgic affection about 'Black' Jack Brabham putting a wheel off-course in order to flick stones at the chasing pack.



Presumably you would have supported life bans for Senna and Schumacher from '90 and '94 respectively?

And I'm not condoning what Renault are alledged to have done. If it turns out to be true then they deserve to be sanctioned, but not to anything like the degree being suggested elsewhere.

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What Senna and Schumacher did was disgracefull and should have resulted in sanctions. Senna may have thought he had justification but there is no justification for deliberately ramming off an opponant. Schumacher made a split second decision and I doubt it was pre-meditated but he still cheated a championship.

Both should have been punished but the thing here is if true, a driver was ordered as a strategy to crash. There can be no justification and yes, if true, I wouldn't want to see Piquet or Flav at another racing track. Ever.

Renault were not found guilty of using Mclaren data.

They were found guilty of having the data. Just as Mclaren were at the first WMSC.

Mclaren, however, decided to play silly-buggers with the FIA, leading to them being back in front of the WMSC.

Renault did not fail to cooperate.

If you cannot understand the difference, then perhaps you need to attend night school, since you certainly missed out on parts of your education.