Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that says Champ Car does not answer the bell in 2008...

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

Well the last time Champcar raced at Mid Ohio they did not have push to pass. The fastest official times by Champcar in Mid Ohio happened in 2000 when the pole speed was timed at 1:05:347 and fastest race lap I beleive was 2001 at 1:07:669.

I think Walker Racing did some testing in Mid Ohio this year and wonder if they posted any times

And don't forget a repaved track.

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I saw all those old times too. The CART cars of that "Turn of the Century" era were simply amazing in their HP and development. Sorry, I forgot P2P didn't exist in 2003. Regardless, the lap times are very close and frankly, a one-two second difference in lap times is not obvious to most fans. I have a feeling that we are all hardcore traditional purists on this forum with a bit of an elitist leaning so we tend to think that a Champ Car being faster than an IRL car is the end-all-beat-all but the market seems to be telling us "who cares?". As for the Walker test, I would be curious to see the times.

Rogelio, I agree with your REALITY thinkin'. I think most on this board figured China to be a coin toss and knew there were some problems in Denver. But I'm the opposite of you on Phoenix. After all the money the promoter blew on Vegas, then the ticket "callback," I figured Phoenix was probably history. But all three races were ANNOUNCED on the CC schedule.

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Originally Posted by McLeagle

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

So, SoCalPVguy, you think CC is not long for this world. But I find your reasoning flawed. You start by listing many reasons for CC's demise:


Now let us say CC somehow got their act together and rectified these problems - but according to you...



...it won't matter.

In other words, the first 90% of your post is just a rant, because, you say, the lack of a 500 counterpart will kill them regardless.

Frankly, I believe that a well-managed series without that 500 is perfectly viable. What will be (and is) CC's undoing, is lack of said management. All those other reasons you enumerate are simply consequences of the inept management you speak of - or more precisely, IMHO, the non-existent management.

If there was truly some merit to the argument that the 500 is so vitally important, CART would have imploded long before it did, and CCWS would have been stillborn -- AND, the IRL would have been a roaring success almost right out of the gate.

In fact, the IRL has little if any success to show for itself, what with having the 500 and the paying TV deal and the dozen years of Anton tossing hundreds of millions at it and, more recently, the heavy-hitter teams. You mention CC's poor car count - well what about IRL's? 18 full-timers this past season; not very impressive. And the vaunted 500 itself struggles to get the infamous 33; the last few years have seen upwards of a dozen entrants that have no business being on the track. This should be a pretty clear indication that the 500 is not what will make or break a series. Proper management is the bottom line here. Unfortunately, neither series is endowed with it. That Anton has to offer "appearance" money to bribe teams to join up is proof enough that IRL is not healthy.

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I agree, after 12 years ratings and attendance are stagnant.

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

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really? thanks

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and just enjoy the next two races. After that it up to the four investors if this game is still worth playing.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

First of all, PLEASE don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is one iota fewer free tickets in CCWS than in the ICS. There is empherical evidence all over the place to support that position.
.

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35,000 free tickets at Mid-Ohio, It may have been a Honda promotion or after all the disapointment it was money spent just to save face at Honda's home course.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

If your premise was correct, then why isn't the CCWS attendance parlaying itself into better TV veiwership? While you may try to minimize this, the TV viewership is where the sponsors, who make it possible to actually race, get a return on their investment.
.

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The worlds biggest sport, Soccer, does poorly on American TV along with the NHL so why do those sports exist in America? According to you if it does poorly on TV then it's not worth while.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

With no new sponsors announced, and no real opportunity to get sponsors right now because there is no schedule (and won't be for at least another month) just exactly where is the money coming from to put new teams on the grid? Where are the orders for new DP-01s for next year?

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Your favorite entertainment, TV, often sells programs to sponsors without seeing the first episode. Schedule is important but selling the team is number one. Do you believe NHL waits for the schedule to come out before they try to get sponsors? New teams will come from Europe because Europeans are not bogged down by Indy and the split like NASCAR America.
As for the DP01 in 2008 there will be new DP01 and 2007 DP01's available. So there will be a choice like the new and old Lola's

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Originally Posted by tbyars

I think the crux of your post is the comment that if CCWS goes under, then there is no alternative for you. With that being the case, then there is absolutely no harm in you casting an eye to the situation that defies logic.
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The logic is, the IRL has proved that there was no need to start a new series. In 12 or is it 13 years it is still a second rate series and not worth the time.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

The split was not going to continue forever. Whatever way it ended, there were fans that were going to be lost on one side or the other. It's a shame, really, that if CCWS goes under, your have taken the stance you have. Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

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Ringling Brothers still has a circus but fewer and fewer families attend every year. But we all have fond memories of the Greatest Show On Earth.

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall. [/font][/size]

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Are you referring to the IRL's Indy 500 as the 8,000-lb gorilla? How much stronger (financially) are they than Champ Car? I am sure that they are better off, but is that something to be proud of? They have had the I-500 since 1996 and the series still struggles with respectability. Their championship driver is heading to NASCAB, wow, the series has a lot to be proud of. Sam Hornish is looking in the same direction.

Surely, the current state of affairs dictate that the IRL is better off. Their races are attended by sparse crowds. The only thing the series has going for it is Honda money and a great television package. Yea, it would be nice if Champ Car had those benefits.

Champ Car can survive without the I-500. We just need get our house in order. NASCAB has more fans at Indy than the IRL.

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Originally Posted by FerrrariF1

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

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And who was that, I mean since you were there and all...

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Originally Posted by mike15

35,000 free tickets at Mid-Ohio, It may have been a Honda promotion or after all the disapointment it was money spent just to save face at Honda's home course.

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CCF dosen't count as a source...

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Originally Posted by mike15

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

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Dual sponsor targeting North America and Europe. Sponsoring for real money a series in this shape? Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents. It's not gonna happen.

I will reiterate. Europe is a WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY FOR CCWS. Yes, Assen was a success, but that was a stupidly easy one to do. Zolder didn't work terribly well, did it? And for the teams in CCWS, are they likely to get psonsors based on 3-4 Euro rounds? Not likely. And unfortunately, those rounds drive off what few NA sponsors we have left.

The heck with Assen and Zolder. In a few years when this series is back on its feet, then consider Europe. Until then, North America is the future.

PERIOD.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Dual sponsor targeting North America and Europe. Sponsoring for real money a series in this shape? Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents. It's not gonna happen.

I will reiterate. Europe is a WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY FOR CCWS. Yes, Assen was a success, but that was a stupidly easy one to do. Zolder didn't work terribly well, did it? And for the teams in CCWS, are they likely to get psonsors based on 3-4 Euro rounds? Not likely. And unfortunately, those rounds drive off what few NA sponsors we have left.

The heck with Assen and Zolder. In a few years when this series is back on its feet, then consider Europe. Until then, North America is the future.

PERIOD.

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Brent as usual we disagree.
NASCAR America dominates the racing dollar.
Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

Zolder worked well even with the high ticket prices. The high ticket price was the number one problem with attendance. In 2008 Zolder should spread the ticket price so more race fans can attend.

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

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With the MidOhio numbers it does make me think. It makes me think you don't have a clue. MidOhio had a major repavement job done between 2003 and 2007. The numbers are meaningless.

And with Milwaukee, hmmm let's see with all the extra downforce and 100% throttle, no need to lift for the corners, you'd think the IRL times would be even bettter wouldn't you? I would.

Gary

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Originally Posted by pits4me

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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I know that's true of the ovals. I think for MidOhio they both used the same distance. Did they use the kink before the keyhole?

Gary

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Originally Posted by mike15

Brent as usual we disagree.
NASCAR America dominates the racing dollar.
Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

Zolder worked well even with the high ticket prices. The high ticket price was the number one problem with attendance. In 2008 Zolder should spread the ticket price so more race fans can attend.

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

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I agree with most of what you are saying, however, if Champ Car fails at home (U.S.), will it matte what happens overseas? Yes, NASCAR dominates the American market, but that does not mean that there are not companies that are willing to take a risk in CC. I would love to see foreign sponsors strengthen our series so that we can make our current American venues stronger. I am afraid that if we start 'challenging' F1, then will certainly be in trouble.

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

Regardless, the lap times are very close and frankly, a one-two second difference in lap times is not obvious to most fans.

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Can I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters? I think you can push that number a bit further even. Run them on one day at a given speed, and then a day latter at 4-5 seconds slower and 85-95% of the fans would never know the difference.

Gary

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Originally Posted by Rogelio

Champ Car can survive without the I-500.

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My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.

Gary

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents.

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UNLESS, they find a company with feet firmly planted on both continents. Someone like Proctor and Gamble who have a huge presence in both places. Not that THAT is going to happen, mind you. Only saying that it is POSSIBLE to find a title sponsor, but the field is narrowed considerably when the two continents are involved like this.

Gary

Reading some of theses post, the phrase "looking at the world through rose-colored glasses" comes to mind. While being positive and supporting your favorite series is admirable, denying reality doesn't change reality. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." seems to fit here.

Keep channeling those positive thoughts. Perhaps a few incantations will help too. Nothing else seems to have worked very well for CC.

Here's the problem with trying to be all things to all people all the time:

Global sponsors are decentralized into different geographic areas. Marlboro Europe might be interested in a European race or two, but it does Marlboro Europe no good to be exposed in Portland. This is what happened to Penske when CART started going outside the U.S. boundaries. Marlboro USA was sponsoring Penske. Surfers, Japan and Canada were "throwaways" that they were paying for anyway.

European sponsors for a few races to drop a Jan Heylen in a seat, then when the money runs out, find a Mario Dominguez with some bucks....sorry.....I just don 't think that's going to get it.

And what "business" does Gommendy hafta conduct that he can't make it to Surfers. "Something's happenin' here and what it is ain't exactly clear".....as the song goes.

[quote="garyshell"]My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.
Gary[/qote]


Yes, that one event is important but that does not explain Champ Car's many woes. When CART lost the I-500 they were still a strong racing series without the big race. Unfortuantely, the loss of major teams to the IRL, poor management, then the Amigos have all led Champ Car to its sad state of affairs. NASCAR's race at Indy is more popular than the IRL's race there.

My point is that if CC played its cards right, and it has not, we could overcome the loss of the I-500. We did so in the first years without the race. We should have stuck with Michigan or created another race.

Paul Newman, co-founder of Newman/Haas Racing and co-owner of Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing…
“We have always been an engineering driven team. We think we have something special to add to the benefit of both. This in no way lessens our commitment to open wheel racing - - - we want to broaden our horizons.”


Is there any reason why Paul Newman did not specifically mention Champcar at the Yates announcement in July. While the Yates deal eventually fell through, I thought the ambiguity of this quote was in stark contrast to his steadfast support of Champcar in the past, and started tongues wagging in Indianapolis.

Just another of many questions.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Here's the problem with trying to be all things to all people all the time:

Global sponsors are decentralized into different geographic areas. Marlboro Europe might be interested in a European race or two, but it does Marlboro Europe no good to be exposed in Portland. This is what happened to Penske when CART started going outside the U.S. boundaries. Marlboro USA was sponsoring Penske. Surfers, Japan and Canada were "throwaways" that they were paying for anyway.

European sponsors for a few races to drop a Jan Heylen in a seat, then when the money runs out, find a Mario Dominguez with some bucks....sorry.....I just don 't think that's going to get it.

And what "business" does Gommendy hafta conduct that he can't make it to Surfers. "Something's happenin' here and what it is ain't exactly clear".....as the song goes.

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good points IC- the race by race driver merry go round continues once again...in some form or other CCWS will no doubt continue into 2008,

from a fan perspective I no longer bother to watch most of the races- 17 cars with a bunch of drivers that for the most part I care nothing about does very little for me- CCWS reminds me of the last days of F3000 and the old Group C World Sports Car series- both with wonderful histories but a very short future

I'm no fan of Tony George but the IRL now offers more or less what CART did at it's height- and for anyone deluded enough to think otherwise- the ONLY open wheel race that matters in the US is the Indy 500- the NASCAR crowd refer to Dario F, JV and JPM as former Indy 500 champions (or F1 champion in JV's case) but not CART/ IRL champions

I can't remember who posted it but there was a time when I always watched CART on a Sunday evening- never missed a race (unless Eurosport screwed up)- nowadays I only watch it occasionally and only then if it doesn't clash with NASCAR on NASN

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Originally Posted by garyshell

With the MidOhio numbers it does make me think. It makes me think you don't have a clue. MidOhio had a major repavement job done between 2003 and 2007. The numbers are meaningless.

And with Milwaukee, hmmm let's see with all the extra downforce and 100% throttle, no need to lift for the corners, you'd think the IRL times would be even bettter wouldn't you? I would.

Gary

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Gary - I accept that this is not a 100% accurate comparison. I was simply correcting someone else in here that said that the current IRL car is "a pig" on road courses. The repave would be worth 2 - 3 seconds, but no more. And I would like to add that they are a spec series running detuned Honda motors - they would give up at least 100hp to the champcars. so, they are far from Pigs.

Re Milwaukee, are you suggesting that the IRL cars stay at 100% flat on the gas for the whole lap. I would have thought that they lifted on the corners and downshift. Lets not forget, Ovals are what the car was designed for, so its pointless to criticise them for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by garyshell

My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.

Gary

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I disagree,some of those sponsorships are discount honda associates. Motorola has been with MA for a long time and the manage the honda engine. Delphi went BK and is still losing money, they too are associated with Honda as is XM radio.I hear 7-11 is a barter with food service to the honda plants in Japan. 7-11 is huge there. NYSE is rumored to be leaving. Wasn't the subsidy program is put in place now to make up for these shortfalls in sponsorship as the honda money may be going away?

The point that series is not flush with sponsors or they would have more than 18 cars and they would be lined up to get into the 500. That is not the case. The ratings are also falling ,so that doesn't help. They have just as much trouble with sponsorship as CC does.IMO

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Originally Posted by mike15

Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

....

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

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Mike...tell us a little bit about who these European sponsors are.

If they are interested in open wheel racing, why aren't they already supporting teams in already WELL ESTABLISHED open wheel series in their region?

F1 is not, by a long shot, the only open wheel series in Europe. In fact, I would dare say the competition for sponsorship dollars is far greater in Europe than it is in the US. And F1 is to European sponsorship dollars exactly the same as NASCAR is to US sponsorship dollars. Why would a company sponsor a series with virtually no television, no track record for sustained successful events, and no real fan base when they can sponsor an established, successful open wheel series in Europe?

If these same companies are interested in American exposure, then why, with names that are familiar to European companies, haven't they been sponsors in CCWS in previous years when the majority of their schedule WAS in North America?

I'm sorry. This justs looks to me like one more crazy idea that someone wrote down on a napkin while having a bratwurst sandwich and said to themselves "hey...we haven't tried THIS yet!"

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Originally Posted by sanguin

I hear 7-11 is a barter with food service to the honda plants in Japan. 7-11 is huge there.

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Link, please.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

Link, please.

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no link, just some inside info. ;)

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Originally Posted by sanguin

no link, just some inside info. ;)

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Now that IS funny. Hilarious actually, coming from Mr. "link please" "proof please". You really want us to believe that? The inside of what?

Oh.

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Originally Posted by beachbum

Now that IS funny. Hilarious actually, coming from Mr. "link please" "proof please". You really want us to believe that? The inside of what?

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I did say I heard it,you don't have to believe it.

I was told that rumors and "hearing things" are okay as Chaimwitz does.

How much do you think 7-11 is paying for sponsorship?

Probably more than half the CC field's sponsors combined.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Probably more than half the CC field's sponsors combined.

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I would like to believe you, but they are honda's discount sponsor IMO.

IYO.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

How much do you think 7-11 is paying for sponsorship?

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Probably more than NHL is getting from McDonalds, Hole In The Wall and MediZone combined....talk about "phony sponsors", lets start in CC.

Oh, thats just what I hear. ;)

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Originally Posted by sanguin

no link, just some inside info. ;)

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But I thought you were "just a fan." Where does "just a fan" get real inside information?

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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I think you would be very very suprised to see how little the paid admission really goes towards the series. You have to build something and then work like hell to convince potential viewers they have something good to watch, or what they are watching is good. The television pakage is downright horrible. At this point, they would be better served to tape delay the races and do some major post production work on the on air product, because their money is a waste of money for what they are getting.

Advertisers and sponsors spend money to get their brand in front of TV viewers first and foremost. NO TV, no sponsorships. Not for the series, not for the races, not for the teams, not for the drivers. You can harp on attendance figures all you want. If you have Zero TV figures, you get ZERO worthwhile sponsorship. You absolutely have to produce a good TV product that is well promoted. I don't care if you have 100k every weekend. NASCAR has that and sometimes double that for EVERY RACE day and there are 38 of them in CUP alone. What sponsors are after is the 10-20 million people at home on race day, and the additional mult- million that watch all the weekly coverage. The people at the track are a bonus.

There is little value in the in-person aspect of the sponsorship deals if there is no television exposure. After all, these companies are spending money to get their product on television during an event. How many of the hundreds if not thousand or so sponsors involved in NASCAR actually promote the rcaing at the track? not even a tenth. They are on the car to be on the TELEVISION. In replays, in driver interviews, in Newspaper nd magazine articles and advertisements. A series that commands no news reports, has no extended pre and post race exposure featuring the teams and their bilboards, I mean cars, and negligible television ratings is doomed to failure or club racing status.

Don't give me any bs about international TV numbers. CCWS is just as pathetic if not more with their international TV deals in important markets.

Who's selling onion gum now??

What about ALMS ,they have lousy ratings ,there was just an article on SPEED about how they depend on their fans attendance.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40755/

CC has a deal with Eurosport.

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Originally Posted by Rogelio

Of the three canceled races this year, the only 'real' cancellation was Phoenix. Denver was not going to happen from the start of the season. China, just like South Korea never got off the ground. Personally, the cancellation of the Chinese race was somewhat insignificant. Also, are we that concerned about the Chinese market? In the future, China may be a great place to be, but not at the current time.

On the other hand, the Phoenix cancellation sent shockwaves throughout the Champ Car community. I was looking forward to attending the Phoenix race. It would have been a great time to race because no other major series is racing during this time.

Surely, the cancellation of any race is bad for any series and even more detrimental to our series because of its current state. I was at the Vegas race this year and the race has a lot of potential. It would be sad for this event to end. The race needs to be held on another day other than Easter. There was a lot of excitement in the air and if the race is promoted well, it could easily be another Long Beach. Who does not want to be in Vegas for a race?

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If a race is published on the schedule prior to the season starting and it is then removed from the schedule, that is a CANCELLATION and it looks horrible, I don't care HOW you spin it. You say the chinese cancellation is insignificant, yet was the Pacific rim not central to their international expansion plans in 5 year plan version 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0?? That cancellation alone makes the series look bush league internationally. With TV outlets, with sponsors, with potential sponsors and with the FIA.
Personally, the series should have paid the freight to make sure the race happened hell or high water at that point.

Who wants to do business with a group that has it's principles as well as the series itself continually involved in contract lawsuits with multiple promotors? I hate to say it, but I wouldn't touch CCWS with a ten foot pole right now. I'd rather burn a $100 bill than spend it on race tickets for a race I'm more than likely never going to see.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

What about ALMS ,they have lousy ratings ,there was just an article on SPEED about how they depend on their fans attendance.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40755/

CC has a deal with Eurosport.

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Dude, this is the Champ Car forum. Stop dragging other series into the discussion.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Can I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters? I think you can push that number a bit further even. Run them on one day at a given speed, and then a day latter at 4-5 seconds slower and 85-95% of the fans would never know the difference.

Gary

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Or better yet, just get it the hell over with and put them both on the same damn track at the same time. Both series are in survival mode. I've lobbied for years now, who cares which car is faster. 18+17=35 and no TV/sponsor confusion is ht eonly way either are going to survive with a product that has any relevance to North America.

International survival in my opinion is not survival, it's suicide for 90% of those currently involved in CCWS. It is not going to lure new North american based teams, nor is it going to lure new fans. I also wouldn't underestimate the significance of the A1GP deal wirth Ferrari. The Ferrari name alone commands attention in international racing. Who's going to watch a series no one klnows where the machinery comes from. So CCWS suddenly becomes a threat to GP2, luring European sponsors and TV viewers. Just exactly how long will BE and the FIA put up with that? Even if it is successful, noone here to speak of will care.