Shouldn't this be in the "History and Nostalgia" section if you want to talk about M Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Moss etc.?
Shouldn't this be in the "History and Nostalgia" section if you want to talk about M Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Moss etc.?
Clark, Fangio, Schumacher and Rosemeyer (of the pre-war era) but I cannot put them into order!
Gilles Villenueve - Raw Speed
Mario Andretti - versitality and talent
Aryton Senna - talent
Now I did not go back as far as fangio who rates but I had to draw the line somewhere
oh raw talent - bad break in life -----Ronnie Peterson
Turn it in Valve, the boy is still wet behind the ears, and barely out of nappies. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
My picks,
Michael Schumacher - 7 titles speaks for itself.
Fangio - legend driver
Jack Brabham - The only driver to ever win the title in his own car.
http://www.jackbrabham.com/
To think he sold his team to Bernard Charles "Bernie" EcclestoneQuote:
the BT19 – which he drove to victory in 1966. The following year the Brabham team won its second successive world championship when New Zealander Denny Hulme drove the BT20 to victory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone
Not quite :dozey: Jack Brabham retired at the end of 1970 and sold his team to Ron Tauranac, who then sold it on to Bernie a couple of years later.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
In no real order:
Fangio
Clark
Schumacher
Then Senna and Prost. Then Stewart.
It is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
LMAO. Gilles was beaten on raw speed by more than one teammate. One of the most overrated drivers of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
Perhaps, although his peers and team-mates had a different view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Jody Scheckter:
"Gilles is...the fastest Formula One driver nowadays."
Carlos Reutemann:
"One year in Formula 1 was enough for him to become one of the fastest drivers in the world."
Keke Rosberg:
"He was the greatest ******* I could race against and that I ever met, but he was absolutely fair. A great driver."
It is a damn shame that facts outweigh opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Please tell us when Gilles was outperformed by a team mate with a similar car. Obviously, you have to exclude the first two or three races in a team when he was feeling his way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
1978 - Carlos Reutemann beat Gilles, supposedly top 3 of all times due to his raw speed, in qual 12:4.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
Points wise it was 48:17 for Reutemann and it wasnt due to difference in mechanical problems, that was 3:2.
Reutemann in 1977 had been destroyed by Lauda, bigtime.
In 1979, with Schekter being a newcomer to Ferrari, GV managed to outqualify him only 8:7 and ended up losing points wise. The year after that, with Ferrari sucking bigtime and JS losing motivation and drive, only then did GV manage to start beating Schekter.
Even out of 6 wins GV achieved in his career, the first one at Canada in 1978 was inherited due to Jariers oil leak, the USA east gp in 1979 he won due to Jones`car suffering a mechanical problem, the Monaco win in 1981 was inherited due to Jones suffering problems and the Jarama one the same year was inherited again due to problems for Jones.
So 4 lucky wins out of 6.
GV is probably the most overrated driver in F1 history and by a huge margin.
I agree with Garry in a sense. He was a bloody quick driver but he was "too brave" and inconsistent. Everybody loves the way he chucked his way around the corners and for being brave, but in the end this cost him his life. Maybe with a few more seasons experience he would have settled down.
You give the stats against the likes of Reutemann and Scheckter, and yet those same drivers considered GV to one of the fastest drivers they raced against, as did many of his peers. Add to that Keke Rosberg's comment and that's enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
As for "4 lucky wins out of 6"...take any driver you care to mention and you could say much the same. Fact is, for much of his F1 career GV rarely had a car capable of winning races. Yes, in 1979 when Ferrari introduced the 312T4 the car was a winner, and Gilles won its first two races, leading Scheckter home, but other than that we never got the chance to see what he might have done with a car that was the anything like the class of the field.
His 1981 victories, in particular, were remarkable. In Monaco Pironi qualified 2.5s slower in the same car, and was a lap down at the finish. In Spain GV only qualified 7th, but Pironi was 0.7s slower in 13th, and ended the race 4 laps behind. The 126CK was recognised as being an awful car, and Pironi's performances showed where the car should have been, but Villeneuve won 2 races with it.
I think this is a misconception about Villeneuve. He was as capable of 'managing' a race as anyone (Jarama being an example), but because of the cars at his disposal invariably he had to push harder to get anywhere near the front. Had he been in a Williams in 1980/1, for example, we would have seen his consistency and combined with his speed it probably would have made for a winning combination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
He was also more interested in racing than championships. As he once said: "How the hell can you drive a race car, fight with people - and think all the time about points for a bloody championship? How can you settle for a 'safe' third place or something, because it's four points...? Jesus, people like that should be accountants, not racing drivers..."
He may well have been the fastest 'reaction-time' driver, but that qoute is all the evidence needed to prove that he was not a complete driver or, for that matter, even a very bright driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
That remark is actually the remark of a moron.
Well, yes, you make a fair point. But a gutsy 'give it all' driver is a crowd pleaser.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
I would prefer purist to moron, as to class Gilles as an imbecille is a little below the belt....
Definitely a gutsy brave driver, but he did take it too far, and in the end this cost him his life.
I think this is a measure of the way that our sport and the perception of it has evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
At Silverstone in 1950, every driver on the field was thinking something like "I intend to finish as high in this race as I can" or in the case of some of the amateurs simply: "I am going to enjoy myself driving my car fast". I doubt that any of them were consciously aware that they were competing for the World Drivers' Championship.
Nowadays the Championship has become an end in itself and the 'point counter' mentality has evolved.
I'm old-fashioned and think that a driver's motive should still be to compete in a race and the Championship points should be a secondary consideration. I can't agree that a driver who wants to race is a moron or an incomplete driver.
GV satisfied the purists but as we have seen time and time again that mentality doesn't win you races, let alone championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
true wedge but I can't wait til the next GV comes around. Probably the most careful driver was Jackie Stewart - If I recall he only had one bad accident and was not injured in that wreck either. Also maybe is race per win ratio is among the best. but if you never got to witness GV drive in person then you have a big void!!
Gilles drove it like he stole it .Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
I've got a buddy who ran the taxi/interference car for Gilles back in the day , when insurance scams fed his career .
Second wasn't an option .
Whilst complaining about this , he also ran a dutiful , respectable #2 on his car when first at Ferrari .
So , don't tell me he's stupid just because he'd prefer to win than have to protect a points position , because we know he was prepared to do his duty for his team .
They said he was fast .
They said he raced hard .
They said he raced fair .
When Pironi passed him , he had proven all those things in that race .
He slowed for the 2 car camera shot , and all those things came to haunt him .
Second wasn't an option .
No doubt that was a factor in his Zolder accident, along with his feelings of betrayal from Pironi. However, there was also the presence of 'two-lap wonder' qualifying tyres then. Which he was outspoken about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
In some sense Gilles had prophesied his own fate during an interview weeks before the crash, in which he declared the potential dangers of qualifying under those conditions; stating that necessary risks were involved in order to achieve a good grid position, forcing drivers such as himself to "banzai it."
Something that people tend to forget was that when he first raced in F1 in acquired the nickname 'Air Canada' because of his many incidents - in one crash debris killed spectators in Fuji (can't remember the year exactly).
Don't think he made too many friends in the paddock that year.
'77, when he and Peterson crashed. It was a racing incident and the spectators were in a prohibited area.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
No, it is the remark of a real racer, something missing from the current group of accountants on the track, such as D "it is too dangerous w/o TC" Couthard, and anyone who thinks it is moronic needs to avoid mirrors.... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Amen, brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Where are such drivers today?
None to be found in 2007 F1.
Or as he said a few years earlier "if it's near the end of qualifying, and you're trying for pole maybe, then I guess you can squeeze the fear..." :(Quote:
Originally Posted by AAReagles
Niki Lauda said this of him: "Gilles was a perfect racing driver, I think. He had the best talent of all of us. In any car he was quick - he didn't drive for points, but to win races. I liked him even more than I admired him. He was the best - and the fastest - racing driver in the world."
Your best friend AKA Lewis Hamilton! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
He "choked" on the WDC because he wouldn't settle for a simple points finish in the last couple of races.
You mean my very best friend, the Golden Savior of all, the Protector of Ron's intergrity,and the Grand Champion Choker of all time, who choked because he could not take the pressure, because he drove himself off the pit road, and when the money was really on the table, went off-roading and shifted himself into neutral in Brazil without sufficient gonads or backbone to admit same?Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
..........Well dream on......that is what dreams are made for.... :D
Thanks ArrowsQuote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
This pretty well sums it up - many are to young or to disconnected to understand what a great talent and human being Gilles was.!!
I think that a generation gap is indeed part of the reason there is a divided opinion on Gilles, especially when compared to drivers who came after him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
Also, considering how well and reliable Ferrari ran in the past 10 or so years, compared to Gilles tenure with the team, there is some envy (from us Gilles fans) towards drivers who were fortunate enough to become employed with Ferrari while it was experiencing considerable success....
...As there is some envy from non-Gilles fans, who probably find it difficult as to why some of us here admire a driver who had won only 6 races, and has been out of the scene for over 25 years.
No doubt, those of us who followed racing back in those days (1980s) could not help but imagine what Gilles would have accomplished with McLaren. As that team, aside from Williams, was clearly the dominant team then - providing WCs for Lauda, Prost & Senna.
For those of you who might not be aware, Gilles had stated (after Imola 1982) that McLaren was perhaps his best choice in the future, regarding his dedication would be better appreciated there, as opposed to Ferrari.
Personally, for myself, my pondering of Gilles was answered by his son's accomplishments. He might not have won 7 WDC titles, but at some point he would have won his share of races/championships. As well as the Indianapolis 500, which was another race he expressed interest in, that his son won, coming back from a lap behind, in a car... appropriately registered as #27.
Nuvolari, Clark, Senna. Enough said.
Though come to think of it Nuvolari never drove in F1, only pre-war Grands Prix before F1 had been invented. so i'd have to go for Fangio, a driver with fabulous control and grace in an era where such qualities were what were absolutely required
But he wasnt bloody quick. His driving style attracted people, and so did his death. Those 2 things are distracting from reality, that he was a very good driver, but not an all-time great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
So opinions and emotions outweight facts? In what crazy world are you living in? If Goebbels, Himmler and Bormann had told you that Hitler is the greatest and most honest person in world, would you have believed them? Because it sure does seem that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I gave facts (no emotional bias in facts) which showed how Reutemann destroyed Villeneuve, now tell me how many all-time great have been destroyed by their teammates like that?
Then Gilles was also beaten by Schekter. So thats two years in running he gets beaten. And he wasnt beaten due to reliability problems, he was beaten due to being outraced.
Nope. 2/3 of his wins were lucky, how many others could that be said about?Quote:
As for "4 lucky wins out of 6"...take any driver you care to mention and you could say much the same.
In 1978, Reutemann managed to win 4 times with the Ferrari, where was the Oh so great Gilles? Yep, he had one lucky win.Quote:
Fact is, for much of his F1 career GV rarely had a car capable of winning races. Yes, in 1979 when Ferrari introduced the 312T4 the car was a winner, and Gilles won its first two races, leading Scheckter home, but other than that we never got the chance to see what he might have done with a car that was the anything like the class of the field.
Ferrari was also clearly the best car in 1979.
GV didnt take full use of it.
No, pironi drove ****ly. No one can drive over the limit of the car. DP was simply doing a bad job with it, but that said, it wasnt a very good car. His 2 wins were lucky though and due to problems for others. Great wins? yes. But Schumacher and Senna had many more wins like that. Many more.Quote:
His 1981 victories, in particular, were remarkable. In Monaco Pironi qualified 2.5s slower in the same car, and was a lap down at the finish. In Spain GV only qualified 7th, but Pironi was 0.7s slower in 13th, and ended the race 4 laps behind. The 126CK was recognised as being an awful car, and Pironi's performances showed where the car should have been, but Villeneuve won 2 races with it.
He had cars totally capable of winning many times, but then he wasnt able to do the job with them that was required. He had the best car in 1979, what did he do?Quote:
Had he been in a Williams in 1980/1, for example, we would have seen his consistency and combined with his speed it probably would have made for a winning combination.
If he was so interested in winning a particular race, why did he win so few of them and often get beaten by his teammates, considering he was prepared to take so many more risks?Quote:
He was also more interested in racing than championships. As he once said: "How the hell can you drive a race car, fight with people - and think all the time about points for a bloody championship? How can you settle for a 'safe' third place or something, because it's four points...? Jesus, people like that should be accountants, not racing drivers..."
I could argue about Gilles being a great human being. I have heard it plenty that he didnt exactly treat his wife too well and used to have sex with quite many other women during his marriage.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
:laugh: You seem to be describing a great many male adults who live a playboy life..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
So cheating on your spouse is something to be proud of? As long as you are single, **** as many people as you want, but once you are married, then things change.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Yes, how very true, and that certainly is how I chose to live my married life. I was brought up with respect and fidelity etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Not everyone is though, and this is by no means a perfect world. The amount of single parent families is testament to the weak will of many people.
Was Adam not tempted and did he not pick the apple?
Oh dear, we seem to have forgotten this is an F1 forum.....sorry. ;)
So how do you explain away Lauda's view?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
That's not what I've said, but equally the opinions of those who raced alongside GV should not be dismissed so easily IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
And they had many more races in which to achieve those wins, and better and far more reliable cars with which to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
He finished four points behind his team leader who also became the WDC that year. He won three races (the same as Scheckter). He gained one pole position (the same as Scheckter). He had six fastest laps (to Scheckter's 0). He led 308 laps (to Scheckter's 170). He had 7 podium finishes (to Scheckter's 6).Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Just the facts man. They speak louder than opinions - apparently. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Had Enzo had the confidence in Villenueve (which is very different from affection, which he undoubtedly had), then Scheckter would never have been granted Number One/Team Leader status.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
1979 showed that Villenueve was capable of being a team-leader in the future, but 1978 hadn't.
Unlike Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Piquet (although Lauda was perhaps not 'in the zone in 79), who turned up and instantly were seen as Number Ones.
It is there that the 'legend' of Villenueve is flawed.
However, what he did in his private life (if he did) is totally irrelevant.
I've never cheated on my partner, nor would do, but unfortunately that did me feck all good when Enzo was looking for drivers.