Bitter??? Ron's not bitter! ;) :D
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Bitter??? Ron's not bitter! ;) :D
How far will someone go to avoid any court action, if they are both told Ferrari will not persue any action against them if they give evidence against McLaren how far will they go, including bending the truth?Quote:
The move buys Ferrari time in which McLaren will continue to be under pressure and painted in a bad light, while at the same time giving the Italian team time to reach agreement with Mike Coughlan and Nigel Stepney in the hope that they can be persuaded to provide more evidence against McLaren. If sufficient evidence existed, Ferrari would already have gone to court.
Here's a thought.
Ferrari was in deep trouble at the start of the year having lost Michael and Ross and Rory and couldn't keep Kimi out of the strip clubs. They knew that McLaren were going to be the chief rivals and had to do something. Then some bright spark comes up with an idea. Send a bunch of confidential information to a hig-up in McLaren, start a spy scandal, get a World Coucil hearing on the matter and get McLaren kicked out of the championship. Job done!
If nothing else, it detracts McLaren from the day-to-day effort of running the team. It does the same to Ferrari, I know, but as they are on the attack they are more in control and should be less affected.
None of us knows what really happened but that doesn't stop us jumping to conclusions. It seems the appeal will be open to the press so much more will become evident then.
On the question of compensating Ferrari for the work they did on the flexible floor and the gain that McLaren got from it being banned, if it was illegal, they shouldn't have run it in the first place so they took the risk of pushing the boundaries of the rules and, eventually, lost. Just like McLaren did with their fiddle brakes a few years ago or Lotus with the twin-chassis car. Part of the game.
This is one of the closest championships for a while and I don't know who will win. Let it be won on the track.
Think again.Quote:
Originally Posted by trevortherevver
And RD can't keep himself from a public and highly emotional comment!
Some interesting parts:
Quote:
In addition to this, Ferrari has tried to latch on to two instances where Mr Coughlan has stated that he showed single pages which he says were from the Ferrari Documents to two other McLaren staff: Mr Taylor (another McLaren engineer who had previously worked with Mr Coughlan when they were both at Ferrari) and Mr Neale (Mr Coughlan's superior).
So did they knew or didn't they knew about it? Or does Ron know what he is talking at all?Quote:
It is fact that Mr Coughlan never passed the Ferrari documents to anyone else at McLaren or told anyone at McLaren that he had these documents. It is fact that no-one at McLaren knew that Mr Coughlan had received any documents from Mr Stepney on the 28th April. It is fact that Mr Coughlan had been told by his superior Mr Neale to stop all contact with Mr Stepney straight after the Australian Grand Prix.
The best one:
And why was Coughlan curious about the Ferrari car? There are so many other things that an engineer might be curious!Quote:
As is now in the public domain, Mr Coughlan has admitted that Mr Stepney gave him a dossier of Ferrari Documents in Barcelona which he took for his own private reasons, he says "engineering curiosity".
I've almost forgot the link to the fairy tale:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61260
And it seems that Stepney isn't really telling the truth:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61256Quote:
Former Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney, sacked by the team this year amid accusations of sabotage and espionage, suggested earlier this week that Brawn was part of a group of people interested in leaving Ferrari for another team.
Brawn, however, has denied any links with other teams, and has said he has only discussed his future with Ferrari.
"Following recent media reportage of my situation and the background and the reasons for my sabbatical I thought it might be helpful to re-confirm my position," Brawn told autosport.com.
"The reasons for taking a sabbatical year from Ferrari were purely personal. After 30 years in motor racing I wanted to devote time to my family and pursue some personal ambitions that time had not allowed.
"Whilst, I am pleased to say, Ferrari was disappointed with my decision, they understood my reasons and asked me to discuss future options with them when I was ready to return to motor racing.
"We have now begun these discussions to see if the requirements of Ferrari and my ambitions might match and to see if there is a possibility of working together in the future.
"After ten fantastic years, the people and culture of Ferrari and Italy is in my blood and Ferrari is my team. Ferrari is the only team or group I have discussed my future with.
"Any reports linking me with other teams or projects are either inaccurate or speculation."
During whole this spying history I still had one kind of respect to Ron Dennis and his words, however it starts now to disappear when I’m following how he’s trying to defend the mistakes his team has made in this mess.
Why he can not understand that "the team McLaren" has a responsibility to if his team doesn’t follow law and justice. It really is not enough if RD do it – FIA has rules for teams not only to the team principals. I am very surprised that Ron Dennis doesn’t understand that.
I think it would be much better if he says that he will take the responsibility what’s his team has down.
Now - he has started accuse Ferrari for their win in Australia and ADMIT that same man who gave this secret Ferrari info to their chief designer ALSO gave them (McLaren) the information according the Ferrari floor in Australia.
AND he did know that - he admit that did know who the Ferrari man was.
Ron even thinks that this "Ferrari man" did a right thing when he gave them this information and he didn't find any reason to inform Ferrari of that one of their employers gave then information .
For me that means - Ron Dennis think that it’s OK and fair if Ferrari employers are giving secret information to them.
That’s the reason why I don’t believe him any more in this case.
If it’s ok to read the secret info from a competitor ones, what’s saying that they don’t do it also in next time? (E.g. maybe there is something wrong in Ferrari design which gives McLaren a reason to make a protest against them again).
Sorry Ron Dennis, but I should like to see that you more straight-backed take the responsibility for your team – the fact is that your chief designer had this Ferrari papers and it's a McLaren matter..
Indeed. It's very interesting to see that RD talks about "the Ferrari team" andQuote:
Originally Posted by jas123f1
"an individual within McLaren". Yeah right, Ferrari does everything as a company, in McLaren everything's about the individuals :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas123f1
That is what is called a real ooopppsss as in the case of the defendant who says I did not shoot him, but if I did it was self-defense or an accident
Sort of like OJ Simpson;s ego who just had to tell the world how dumb some folks were in tniking this is how it happenned---NONO NO NO if I was to speak hypothetically, the knife would have been in my left hand, ...and afterwards, "I never saw so much blood....."
Tis a tangled web... poor Ron just could not keep his mouth shut :o :grenade:
Here is a link, read it and weep or gloat, depending on your bias
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/39142/
Here is another post about Hamie, and the other drivers who are 50% useless
http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/7070814
To say that RD could not help himself from a public and highly emotional comment is a bit rich considering all the statements from Ferrari and the words they use. While it's interesting to read another side of the argument, I rather wish that he had kept quiet until the appeal. Rather more dignified that way.
I don't see any paradoxes in Ron's statement. Coughlan could have shown someone at McLaren some Ferrari papers without the McLaren person knowing they were from Ferrari. I agree with his whistleblower statements. How could they give away their source and expect others to blow the whistle in other cheats? This is written into the law of some countries to protect whistleblowers so Are people complaining that McLaren told the FIA about an illegal car while not complaining about Ferrari running an illegal car in the first place? Coughlan was told to not have any contact with Stepney after Stepney told him about the floor and wing. There is nothing about Coughlan having Ferrari documents at that time.
If Stepney did pass secrets to McLaren, why has he not been charged? They were quick enough to charge the Ferrari people who were accused of taking secrets to Toyota a few years back.
With all this carry on, I can see why the FIA is so keen on standard parts on all the cars. Perhaps some of you will be upset that the standard ECU will be made by McLaren Electronic System Ltd., though.
Here are a couple of definitions for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by trevortherevver
Whistleblower - A person who reports misconduct in his organization to the proper authorities.
Spy - A person who gives or sells information from one organization to a competing organization.
If I work for Ford Motor Company and I see something illegal going on, I will call an attorney, the police, or the federal authorities. I would not call General Motors! That's the difference between a whistleblower and a spy! Is THAT example easy enough to understand???
Point 2 - Stepney has been charged and awaits a trial/hearing in Italy.
Anything else that needs correcting????
Ioan is right. Hey, here´s an idea: registrate again and start posting bs, so no one will know who you really are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
(dont worry "trevor", no one cares)
Sure, when RD is stating things publicly it's OK but when when Ferrari expressed themselves it was bad for the sport. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by trevortherevver
I also have a problem understanding why his letter was addressed to Macaluso and not to the FIA? Rony boy doesn't have the balls to directly take on Mosely? Why's that? If they are not guilty as he states than why is he afraid?
Or is it just that well known hypocrite side of Ron who never addresses a matter directly?! ;)
Just as well you did because reading RD's entire letter explains McLaren's position clearly and fully.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I agree. I was a little surprised to see McLaren responding, but you can understand why they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by trevortherevver
The public release of RD's letter comes after a week that has seen a number of Ferrari statements criticising the FIA decision, and repeating as yet unfounded allegations against McLaren. In those circumstances it's hard to see a CEO of any company sitting back and allowing such allegations to go unchallenged.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The letter was addressed to Macaluso simply because it is a response to Macaluso's own letter and the charges made in that letter. You may have noticed that copies were sent to Mosley and Todt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Well, as a matter of fact, YEAH! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
You could give Ralf Nader a ring.
Speaking of Ralph Nader, I once saw a mint, early '60s Chevrolet Corvair driving around downtown Salt Lake City. It's license plate was "F NADER" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
(Sorry, totally off topic, but I had to share it...)
I read all that ronspeak complete with spinning and BS! :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
You didn't seem to be that understanding when Ferrari complained about the verdict, but you understand Ron's attacks and drivel! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Other excuses?!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
So is RD upset because Malacuso wanted a fair hearing for the case, or is he afraid that McLaren will get finally busted for spying on another team?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
They've already been found guilty and now they will likely be punished too, and even if it will only be a fine (which will keep everyone happy) it will in fact leave no more doubts about McLaren being at fault in the whole affair!
He could have saved the money and the time of going to the copy shop to make those copies, Max and Todt also read newspapers! ;)
On another note, those who are critical of Ron Dennis should read Jean Todt's statement again:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180Quote:
"...it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it."
and ask themselves why Todt chose to miss out the fact that that Ferrari prepared and presented their evidence at the FIA hearing in the form of a 118-page document, and were allowed to cross-examine during a hearing that lasted in the region of five and half hours.
If you think that 5 hours is enough to present what was in that 118 pages document alone than it's your problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
It was a farce, you can't hear all, think about it and decide the right solution in that little time, unless it was decided before it even began.
And Bernie's comments plus the Spanish guy's comments suggested exactly that, it was all fixed.
The problem is Ferrari's who have yet to produce the evidence to back up their very public allegations, despite being given the opportunity to do so (contrary to what Todt claims). They will have yet another opportunity to do so at the appeal and if they are able to produce anything new which proves that McLaren made use of Ferrari documents that were in Coughlan's possession then good for them. If that happens then McLaren deserve to be penalised.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
then here is the latest release from Ron Dennis. It is well worth reading as it appears to dispell many assumptions made so far.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=32299
It is a lengthy read, so get yourself a large cup of coffee before you start.
Stepneygate - the whole story
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19473.htmlhttp://a.tribalfusion.com/i.click?si...stID=281798365
One of the big problems with the ongoing Stepneygate Affair is that there is a huge amount of hearsay, but not a great deal of fact. There are two affidavits: one from Mike Coughlan and one from his wife Trudy. Elements of these documents have been reported in detail in Italy and have been copied elsewhere in the media, but no-one is admitting to having the affidavits or of having supplied them to the press. This is because these statements are privileged information and are only available to the Coughlans, their lawyers, High Court officials and Ferrari, McLaren, the FIA and their respective legal teams.
There are elements of truth in what has been published, but it is by no means clear whether all the details have come out, nor whether the timing of the various events has been taken into account in the stories that have been written. The timing of events is clearly important because between March and July, the relationship between McLaren and Mike Coughlan was changing. In parallel to this story, Nigel Stepney, Coughlan and four others (three at Ferrari and one at McLaren) were developing a plan to join forces to create an engineering group that would be employed by another Formula 1 team. The problem therefore is to distinguish at what point Coughlan was working for himself, or for Stepney's engineering group, and when he was working for McLaren. Ferrari claims that McLaren was involved throughout.
The story begins, however, back in 2006 when Ferrari made Coughlan an offer to join the team in Maranello.
This was not possible because at the time Coughlan had just agreed a new deal with McLaren to run from 2007 to 2009. We hear that the World Council also heard that Coughlan was involved in discussions with Toyota in the same period. This information apparently came to light when McLaren went through Coughlan's e-mails after the current crisis began.
It is clear, therefore, that from late 2006 Coughlan was interested in moving elsewhere. Engineers can leave their employment with just six months of gardening leave, if they can find a way to get their intended new team to settle with their current employers. According to our sources Coughlan wanted to move from earning around $700,000 a year to become one of the highly-paid big name engineers in F1.
At the same time Nigel Stepney was becoming very disaffected at Ferrari, as he was not happy with the new management structure at Ferrari after Ross Brawn's decision to leave the Italian team. This relationship deteriorated over the winter and around the time of the Australian Grand Prix, Coughlan received an e-mail from Stepney alerting him to technical questions about the Ferrari. McLaren apparently argued to the World Council that this was a case of whistle-blowing and that this event should be viewed as being entirely separate to later developments. This argument was backed up by the fact that in mid-April Coughlan asked for a firewall to be created to stop further e-mails arriving from Stepney.
Coughlan travelled to Barcelona on April 28 and it seems that McLaren was under the impression that he was going there to tell Stepney to stop him sending e-mails.
In his affidavit, it seems that Coughlan says that he returned to the UK with 780 pages of Ferrari documents.
The meeting in Barcelona seems to have triggered an approach by Stepney to Honda. He informed Honda that he had a group of engineers from different teams who wanted to work for Honda. This led to a meeting between Stepney and Honda's Nick Fry at Heathrow Airport on May 9. At this meeting Stepney told Fry that Coughlan was involved in the plan.
On May 21, according to Ferrari, Stepney put white powder in the fuel tanks of the Ferrari F1 cars that were due to go to the Monaco Grand Prix on May 27. Stepney denies this and says that he is being framed.
It was in the same period that Coughlan asked McLaren Racing's Jonathan Neale for an early release from his contract. Neale then suggested that they meet away from the McLaren factory to discuss this - because the glass walls in the McLaren factory make it easy for people to see if there is a lively discussion going on. It was agreed that they would meet for breakfast at a local golf club on May 25. It is alleged that during this meeting Coughlan tried to show Neale documents, but McLaren says that he refused to look at them.
Within a few days of this meeting Coughlan and Stepney met Fry at Heathrow on June 1, and discussed doing a deal.
There have also been suggestions that the two men also made an approach to Toyota.
By June 7, the F1 circus had moved to Canada and it was there that McLaren and Ferrari agreed to work together to solve disputes over the regulations, without the FIA having to be involved. While the teams were in Canada and the United States, Mike Coughlan's wife Trudy took the Ferrari documents to a copying shop in Surrey and asked for them to be put on a disk. She paid with a personal cheque. The original documents were then destroyed, apparently having been shredded and then burned in the back garden of Coughlan's house.
At some point in this period Ferrari learned via the copying shop in Surrey that Coughlan was in possession of Ferrari documents.
There were rumours at Indianapolis that there was about to be a new espionage scandal and stories circulated that Nigel Stepney had been arrested. These were not true, but on June 21 Ferrari announced that Stepney was under criminal investigation in Italy. Stepney responded the following day saying that he was the victim of "a dirty tricks campaign".
In this period Ferrari went to the High Court in London and obtained a search warrant for Mike Coughlan's house. They found disks containing the data from the Ferrari paperwork. McLaren immediately announced that it had suspended Coughlan. The Coughlans appeared in court in London on July 10 and the following day agreed to provide Ferrari with sworn affidavits.
The rest of the story is now public information.
The schedule above may not be 100% correct
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
My reading of this is that there is a sense of very genuine grievance on the part of Dennis and McLaren that goes beyond any attempt to merely avoid censure.
Ferrari it seems will come out of this much the worse for making so many accusations when the whole episode started with them through no fault of theirs.
Ferrari cheated. Stepney blew the whistle. Ferrari realised that Stepney knew too much and tried to scew his integrity by making up the white powder story ( did anyone believe that at the time ?). Then Stepney behaved like a traitor in my view by passing all the docs to Coughlan ( if he did ). Ferrari now try to pass the buck onto McLaren. BS. Sorry but I really hope Ferrari get a wopping penalty for wasting time post the FIA inquiry. Can Brawn seriously return.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by seppefan
Ferrari wasn't cheating .
That's why , even though the FIA knew they had used the flex-floor in Melbourne , they didn't sanction them .
Instead , they clarified the rulebook to make them illegal .
Had Stepney been "blowing the whistle" he would have done it in the direction of the FIA , not a competitor .
Ron talks a lot about protecting the "whistle blower" , then names Stepney directly , and says they put up a fire-wall to stop him .
The white powder is really the only thing I see as fishy here .
Exactly, and the only reason for Ron's latest comments is to try to discredit Ferrari knowing that McLaren are already on the back foot after being declared guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Arrows, the problem is RD's incoherence when talking about this topic. I'm quoting from the link that Valve posted:
1) RD says "Ferrari run an illegal car in Australia". That's a lie. The car passed scrutineering several times during that GP, and there was nothing outside the regulations. Afterwards, a clarification by FIA deemed the floor illegal. This is no different than McLaren's third pedal in 98 or the Michelin tyres in 03: was McLaren "running an illegal car" back then? Hypocrite.
2) He first says that Stepney told McLaren about the rear wing separator, and later he says that it was "visible for everyone": but they needed someone to tell them? Yeah right.
3) As has already been mentioned here, it is ok to encourage employees to secretly tell the authorities about something not legal within their team. RD seems to think that the right path to do this is to tell your competition first :rolleyes:
4) And he keeps talking about the "illegal device". If we have to believe him, we have to assume that the marshalls at Australia are corrupt? Why doesn't he ask for punishment for these officials?
5) He says McLaren "installed a firewall" so that Coughlan avoided receiving emails from Stepney. So, McLaren's computer technicians cannot make one of their users to filter his email. I have to assume then that McLaren has a huge problem with spam :p :
6) RD says that Ferrari has no evidence of anyone other than Coughlan at McLaren with knowledge of the documents. Yet Ferrari has Coughlan's affidavit saying otherwise. He says that Coughlan showed a diagram "but without saying where it came from", and that Neale apparently "closed his eyes" or something ( ;) ) when Coughlan tried to show him. But they didn't know, yeah right. Try to imagine the situation: Coughlan tries to show Ferrari's documents to Neale, he refuses to see them, and he doesn't mention the episode to anyone else at McLaren's :eek:
7) When he addresses the use of the Ferrari documents (quite unnecessarily, I would say, if he had already established that the documents never were at their factory), he only mentions use of "performance enhacements". As has been mentioned several times, of course they cannot use Ferrari's blueprints in April or May to do any changes to their car already running races. But the documents were about way more than just drawings of the car. There was a lot of operational data, which of course he doesn't mention.
8) Next he says that "Coughlan acted secretly", after having mentioned at least two attempts of Coughlan to show the documents to other people at McLaren.
9) The last few paragraphs sound quite convincing to me. But they don't change the previous contents of the letter.
In summary, quite a liar, our friend RD, and a bad one for that matter.
The "F1 Circus" travels around the world together and spends most of the year together. They're really one big incestuous family.
I'm kinda surprised this type of thing doesn't happen more often.... or is this just a case of someone getting caught.
At the end of the day, the FIA is going to have to just kill the whole thing for the good of the sport. Because to penalise Mclaren is going to be seen by half the world as unfair, while NOT penalising them will be looked on as equally unfair by the other half.
Just this thread is a good example of this, as people reading the same articles are using the same article to justify completely opposed points of view.
So his detailed letter is not a response to the fact that Ferrari have refused to accept the FIA hearing verdict, despite being allowed to present their evidence and take part in the procedings, and have repeatedly made unproven allegations via the media without producing any new evidence to back them up?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Me-thinks you oversimplify things a little :) but Max has given Ferrari another opportunity. If they have the evidence then there shouldn't be a problem. If not...Well, let's wait and see.
This is my only real problem with the contents of that letter. You could add Jordan's anti-stall device in '99 to that list, of course. Again, not illegal at the time, but clarified as such afterwards. Therefore, I have no problem with Ferrari's Australia victory and don't feel that they deserve censure regarding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
Once again, its a tangled web...when you start telling stories.......But ron just needs to talk to OJ ("I never saw so much blood") Simpson for some sympathy (but definitely NOT advice) about the mess that he keeps diggin himself into :grenade:
Personally I do not believe any of them anymore, not ferrari not maclarent, not mikie, --well ok except for NS, I do believe him when he says he was showering and someone put some white powder in his pants....yeah right :rolleyes:
just what was that "white powder"--most white powder is either flour or coke
You have Dennis's word against Todt's word on whether there was ample time given to Ferrari to present evidence .Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
You had a hearing , not a tribunal .
You now have a tribunal .
This trial is a result of the fact that it was questionable whether Ferrari had had enough opportunity to give evidence , combined with the idea that the general public is questioning the original verdict without punishment .
What I hope for in this is the admission from the FIA that they made a mistake here . I won't hold my breath .
Tin lists a lot of logical sounding Ronspeak , and counts the lies .
Why should we believe in anything Ron says ?
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40226
cheese, adults behaving like babies. Ron Dennis protects his drivers from the big, scary world. Wheter you support ferrari or mclaren, i think the drivers are big enough not to answer questions, instead of pulling them out of a press conference.
Good points well made tinchote :up: In response to some of them I'd say that:Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
I've already said that I didn't believe Ferrari's floor was illegal (others here disagree), but the FIA clarification made it so, and all the teams were required to make changes. Therefore, had no clarification been sought, or given, would the floor have been illegal? RD's view is yes it would, and given the FIA's clarification it's hard to disagree. Ferrari's floor was designed to exploit a loophole/omission in the rules and without the clarification it is reasonable to assume it would continue to have been used.
RD doesn't say McLaren needed to be told about the about the rear wing separator by Stepney. He does say both that and the floor "could be and were seen on the Ferrari car prior to the Australian Grand Prix".
Stepney approached Coughlan. He didn't contact McLaren and say "I've got some info, what should I do with it." He sent info to Coughlan. McLaren did not seek or encourage this approach, and had no control over how Stepney decided to whistleblow. Once he sent the info to Coughlan it could, and maybe should, have been passed to the FIA. The means by which the issue of the flexi-floor was raised with the FIA is questionable, but it did maintain Stepney's confidentiality, which is a core part of whistleblowing. As someone who has been involved in that kind of process believe me, I know!!!
I do not believe that McLaren either sought to receive information from Ferrari, nor did they use the information that came into Coughlan's possession, other than that which related to the floor issue.
I also believe that there is more mileage in the Stepney/Ferrari part of the story which has conveniently been set aside for the time being. Whether Stepney did or did not send documents to Coughlan - if he didn't then there is a can or worms that is yet to be opened - is central to aspects of this whole thing.
Also, Ferrari's whole approach to this has been distateful. From the moment they got information that their documents had been copied it seems as if they have set out to pin the whole thing on McLaren, searching for evidence that supports that allegation along the way. So far they have found little, but made much noise.
Perhaps the appeal will find that Ferrari's allegations are well founded and that McLaren have used Ferrari documents and lied all along. In which case, as I have said a number of times, McLaren will deservedly be punished. However, I don't believe Ron Dennis would allow his organisation to act in this way, and I think his reaction to all of shows genuine frustration/anger/disappointment at being wrongly accused.
Time will tell if my opinion is right or wrong. Whichever it is, what was a great season is being wrecked, and will always be coloured by this mess :down:
Arrows, as I said in my point 9, I do agree with RD that this has been blown out of proportion. And in any case this will end up being dismissed, because otherwise it is too big a mess.
In all fairness, I don't really understand Ferrari's position. Unless they are in possession of information that clarifies the situation and has not been released.
But I still don't like the way RD is lying, and things haven't improved with removing his drivers from the press conferences today :down:
At the risk of jumping to RD's defence again ( :p ) that may be a good decision for everyone concerned. Had Alonso been present alongside Kimi the media would have had a field day questioning two people who really are not involved in the off-track dispute.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
I'm sure some of the media will do their best to fan the flames between McLaren and Ferrari, but less talk and more racing would be good for everyone this weekend :s mokin:
I totally agree with that :up: I just don't like RD's ways :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Haha. Don't let Ferrari present any evidence at the hearings. Don't let my drivers actually give their honest opinions about things. Don't let the public actually know what's going on. ROFLMAO
Who says it's a fact?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Oh yeah, Ron Dennis.
Funny how you believe him unquestionably....
....funny also that you were willing to have believed Nigel Stepney's claims he was set up (which, of course, Mr Dennis has now confirmed wasn't the case)...
....whilst dismissing Ferrari statements as not been facts.
Atleast we Tifosi don't hide our bias.
I hate to break it to you, old bean, but your institutional bias isn't just showing, it's destroying your credibility.
Really? A team that has been the subject of espionage, betrayal and having their designs in the hands of their main rivals designer have been distasteful?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Whereas Mclaren's has been above and beyond reproach, as has Coughlan and your set-up mate Stepney?
Go on, keep them coming, it's entertaining.