The Crane and Lewis

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

It does ask the question of how cars would be prioritised in the event of two or more drivers being in the same position, but as we're talking about such a rare event I doubt it's a major issue.

---

Rare or not the rules should account for it, which isn't the case.

After thinking a bit about it I realized that Lewis shouldn't have been put back on track anymore.
Before going crazy about what the rules state and all the rest think about the moment when he was sent back on the track! Was it under racing conditions? No it wasn't, it was either under SC conditions or even better under red flags!
His car was in no more in a dangerous position anymore at the moment when he was lifted and placed on the track, because there was no more racing at that moment!

Well at least he didn't get in the points or Ron would have gone mad if the rivals would have asked for his disqualification after the race.

Well, had Ralfie stayed in his car and kept the engine running, the tractor was along very promptly and could have lifted him back on track too.

Ralf was too busy getting stroppy and physical with one of the track workers. I completely understand his frustration, but pushing marshals around just isn't on. :down:

Hamilton definitely lost a lap, IIRC he rejoined ahead of Massa and Alonso, but behind Winkelhock who of course was leading at that point. Strictly speaking he should have taken the restart 2nd on the road but a lap down.

And yes I was probably wrong on the bump start thing with a modern F1 engine and he probably kept it running - when I saw him back on the track and slowly rolling downhill before accelerating away I just assumed that without bearing in mind how a modern F1 engine behaves :P

Wasn't the yellow tractor (crane) quickly to put Lewis back on track than on saturday where it took more time for any marshall to get on him when he crashed?!

Yes, because on Sunday the drivers ploughed straight on at a corner where one might reasonably expect an incident therefore place more resources. Not rocket science.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Yes, because on Sunday the drivers ploughed straight on at a corner where one might reasonably expect an incident therefore place more resources. Not rocket science.

---

I understand now. Thank you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

So like someone said, whatever MS can do, Lewis can do better :D

---

The correct quote would be "Anything Schu can do, Lew can do better", sung to the new Mercedes ad tune :p :

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

But I'm wondering about one thing. Is it sure that none of the others, who went off, kept engine going? And if someone kept his engine going, then why wasn't he helped out? It would have been a bizzare outcome of the rules - one can be helped and the other one not.

I think Hamilton's case may create an interesting precedent. Now in the future whoever flies off the track (and the car isn't badly damaged),just stays in the car and waves his arms to the crane driver. Wouldn't it be weird if in the future we're going to see every driver, who has stuck in the gravel trap, getting back in the track by the help of a crane?

Btw, how long have such rules existed? Interesting that only rookie Hamilton has been the only one, who knew that it's possible to continue the race with the help of a crane.

I remember Barrichello in 2003 US GP kept his engine going in the gravel, but didn't get a help by any crane or marshalls. Why have cranes never helped a driver before or why haven't the majority of drivers, who have spun, known such rule by switching the car off and getting quickly out of the car? Or are the German marshals and crane drivers the only ones, who know the rules perfectly? (German accuracy :D )

So many stupid questions, but no answers...

Good post that Jens, maybe the FIA will do something about it, or maybe not :D

Imagine if 2 cars were in the same position, wonder if the correct one would be removed first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jso1985

the only explanation could be that the rules state that a driver can be pushed back by the marshalls if his car is in a dangerous position(like MS in Nurburgring 03).

now probably the rules doesn't state that the marshall can't use a crane to push the driver back to the track!

---

But if a car is in a dangerous position...which it certainly was! Wouldn't it be the safest thing to get the driver out and behind the safety barrier and the car lifted there too?

Surely it's not safe for a driver to be swinging around carried by a crane either? And surely it can't be within normal Safety Standards either?

Hamilton should be dropped of 10 grid positions at Hungary.

On lap 4th he was lapped and he was following race lider Winkelhock. When SC gave signal for lapped cars, that they can overtake Hamilton passed him.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...y_Chart_07.pdf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schnell

...Surely it's not safe for a driver to be swinging around carried by a crane either? ...

---

That's the first thought that crossed my mind.

The yellow tractor or crane as you are all calling it, well it's neither it was a JCB LOADALL prob a 525 its a telehandler or if you are still confused its like a telescopic forklift normally used on building sites or farms
its not a tractor or a crane

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

Rare or not the rules should account for it, which isn't the case.

After thinking a bit about it I realized that Lewis shouldn't have been put back on track anymore.
Before going crazy about what the rules state and all the rest think about the moment when he was sent back on the track! Was it under racing conditions? No it wasn't, it was either under SC conditions or even better under red flags!
His car was in no more in a dangerous position anymore at the moment when he was lifted and placed on the track, because there was no more racing at that moment!

Well at least he didn't get in the points or Ron would have gone mad if the rivals would have asked for his disqualification after the race.

---

it took you some time but you pulled it off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveTaylor

The yellow tractor or crane as you are all calling it, well it's neither it was a JCB LOADALL prob a 525 its a telehandler or if you are still confused its like a telescopic forklift normally used on building sites or farms
its not a tractor or a crane

---

Interesting :D but all the british media used the term "crane", so who is right? :rolleyes:

why drivers get out quickly from their cars when they spin and are caught in the gravel?

Normaly for the safety reason, drivers are told to do so for not puting their life or the life of others (including the guys working with the crane or the big lift) in danger. And Lewis's car was in a safe place compared to the yellow tractor moving in gravel to give him that little help.

Despite what happened yesterday, even Hamilton staying in his car, he was puting as well his life in danger as we have seen one spyker (If I remember very well) kissed a little bit his rear wing. Imagine what could have happened if the spyker had collided into the Mclaren?!

don't think that it is clever for what Hamiliton did (even if I don't blame him for that), but he has been lucky enough to get the crane or the big lift to put him back to the track, which may have been caused another tragedy when the Red Bull as well touched the rear wheel of the yellow tractor (whatever the name you may call it).


For me, the Safety issue with the last GP was poor and below the line the FIA should review regulations on this or make a clarification for next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

Interesting :D but all the british media used the term "crane", so who is right? :rolleyes:

---

Well having worked in a JCB depot and have driven them before, i think i believe me,
but then again the press are always right arn't they.
Even JCB must be wrong in there sales bumff as they call them telehandlers as are the red ones (manitou as they are called) you'll see at some circuits watch for them at the french gp (manitou are a french company) :D

The marshalls did very badly! too late and wrong decisions.

About Hamilton and the crane i think it is not stated in the rules book that a driver can't be pushed back to race by a crane, and that is because this was de first time :D He was lucky he could continue racing, but he was lucky too he is healthy, cause he risked his life for mor than a minute seeing how cars crashed around him while he was waiting for help. The rulebook, the same that does not state he can's be pushed back to race by a crane, also states that a driver in a dangerous position must leave the car as soon as he can and it is safe. Somebody should tell him that what he did was risky.

It would of been my first instinct to get the F outta dodge knowing that you followed a car in there and you were almost clipped by another. I don't know if he was just ballsy, or Ron or his dad were screaming into the radio to stay put and keep the engine running.

To be honest, his day should of been done right there and he should of exited the car ASAP since that was a dangerous area to be in. I even shouted at the TV for him to get out, when I saw more cars come flying into that area. Then Liuzzi goes airborn and clips the crane. I couldn't believe it when they let Lewis off the hook and he just took off like it was no big deal. Bad juju, it will bite him back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

---

I guess you have been asleep for several years? Or maybe you never read British trash?

I'm so happy Hamilton showed up to show just how big of a fraud the British media is.

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

If the safety car was already deployed then Hamilton should not have been put back on the track. With the cars no longer at racing speeds the marshals had time to remove the Mclaren to the other side of the barriers which was the safest place for all concerned.

You can't blame Hamilton for getting the help but I think the rules need to be clarrified and those marshals need to be re-trained.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveTaylor

Well having worked in a JCB depot and have driven them before, i think i believe me,
but then again the press are always right arn't they.
Even JCB must be wrong in there sales bumff as they call them telehandlers as are the red ones (manitou as they are called) you'll see at some circuits watch for them at the french gp (manitou are a french company) :D

---

I don't know about Scottish Industrial regulations, but when I was an Engineer in the Snowy Mountains Authority in charge of operators and labourers, all front end loaders, including the small Ferguson 3 in 1 front end loader were clasiffied as cranes, and all operators on these machines require a crane operator's licence. They must have a knowledge of all safety regulations and procedures for operating cranes as well as crane operator's signals.

Thus the title of this thread as the JCB was being used as a crane to lift the McLaren.

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment. I would add here that a Torro Rosso nearly ran into the crane.

I don't want to get into any discussions as to what the JCB sales bumff maight call this machien, or any other machine; in this instance would you not agree that the JCB was being used as a crane, and thererfore subject to crane operating regulations?

Following from the above, I just wonder whether the FIA should have proper procedures for drivers once their cars are beached in a gravel trap and cannot get out under its own power:
1. Should the driver switch off the engine (in case it catches fire from the heat if he doesn't)
2. Should the driver remove the steering wheel and get out of the car
3. Should the driver follow marshals' explicit instructions to move quickly to a position of safety, such as behind a safety fence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

---

Well after Hamilton was placed back on the track.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

---

Another car actually hit the Crane, in fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

Do you think if Lewis could manage to score points, would have some teams stayed silent like they are today? I don't think so.

As long as he didn't score any point, it is useless for them to argue on this issue and now the instruction to drivers is to do whatever they can if they spin, keep the engine running and wait the crane to take you off the gravel and get back to race.

No one will claim and Lewis's case would be a proof that it is allowed.

---

I totally agree - why disqualify a driver who got no points anyway? Just to se a DQ on his record? Still, someone needs to look into the rules and get a clarification from the officials. All the F1 websites I've looked at are treating this as a non-issue.

I can't help but wonder if he had gotten craned back to the track and finished higher than FA, how would FA react???? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

---

Really??? You weren't reading the same forums I was reading back then!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jens

I think Hamilton's case may create an interesting precedent. Now in the future whoever flies off the track (and the car isn't badly damaged),just stays in the car and waves his arms to the crane driver. Wouldn't it be weird if in the future we're going to see every driver, who has stuck in the gravel trap, getting back in the track by the help of a crane?

So many stupid questions, but no answers...

---

In some cases a referee have to make an instant judgment according to his own interpretation against incident which is not explicitly stated as rules of the game.

The crane gate might not stated on the rules but there is also no statement that it breaks the rules.

In normal accidents most of which only one or two drivers involved, I doubt that they will crane the car up and back again at the race.

There were five drivers in the same gravel in the same lap, I'd rather consider it as unusual thing. Craning the car might be their interpretations in facing this sort of problem never happened in the story of F1.

Why should Hamilton the choice? it was simply because he was the only one in the running engine car. He deserved of credit for his initiative keep inside the car and able to keep the engine running until auxiliaries come.

That's not easy, those in the accident tend to forget their cool-head, clutch off while gears is on will stop the engine automatically.

Every question has its answer because every rose also has its torn :)

Let's just think about how dangerous this really was. The front end loader was being operated as a crane, with a sling lifting the McLaren while cars were running off the track at that precise location. Now had one of the cars run off under the McLaren with the driver's head hitting the bottom of the wing, I am sure the reaction here would have been a lot more negative.

The FIA must surely tighten up their safety regulations regarding drivers who have beached their cars in the gravel traps.

That JCB, for whatever reason, had no right to be where it was until all the cars stopped running past. Does anyone disagree with this point?

He is even accustomed jumping out of helicopter

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

If the safety car was already deployed then Hamilton should not have been put back on the track. With the cars no longer at racing speeds the marshals had time to remove the Mclaren to the other side of the barriers which was the safest place for all concerned.

You can't blame Hamilton for getting the help but I think the rules need to be clarrified and those marshals need to be re-trained.

---

The safety car was already deployed at the moment when the tractor (crane, telehandler or whatever) entered the gravel trap to rescue the cars, remember that Liuzzi almost collected the Safety Car before going of and touching the yellow "whatsoever" that was coming to rescue the beached cars.

At the moment when lewis was lifted and put back on the track the SC was definitely on track and maybe the race was already red flagged, which means that he was no more in a danger and he had no right to be allowed back on track.
I do believe that if he would have got any points at the end of the race than other teams would have contested it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

---

The SC was already deployed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

---

Oh, you are sure? I was sure that after the 3-4 first cars that slid off that corner that the other drivers would no way in hell slip off the corner, knowing that the corner was extra slippery. Didn't happen. They kept sliding off that corner. The reality is that the gravel in those traps are designed to slow the cars down, and the tires are a great way to cushion the impact because it distrubtes the force being applied over a period of time. What happens when you take the gravel away and put a steel wall there? You get a recipe for dead formula one drivers.

The crane should have not even been out in the gravel trap until all the cars were safely behind the safety car.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hendersen

The crane should have not even been out in the gravel trap until all the cars were safely behind the safety car.

---

Thank you! Now THAT makes sense! (Which is why the FIA will ignore it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jso1985

the only explanation could be that the rules state that a driver can be pushed back by the marshalls if his car is in a dangerous position(like MS in Nurburgring 03).

now probably the rules doesn't state that the marshall can't use a crane to push the driver back to the track!

---

In 2003, MS's car was half-on, half-off the track surface. Lewis was 20 meters off the surface! How is that the same?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment.

---

The rules clearly allow for this IF the track is in Germany and the engine is built by a German manufacturer! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wmcot

In 2003, MS's car was half-on, half-off the track surface. Lewis was 20 meters off the surface! How is that the same?

---

What's the difference when you're a McLaren fan? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment. I would add here that a Torro Rosso nearly ran into the crane..

---

I think all this broke the Safety Regulations totally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Following from the above, I just wonder whether the FIA should have proper procedures for drivers once their cars are beached in a gravel trap and cannot get out under its own power:
1. Should the driver switch off the engine (in case it catches fire from the heat if he doesn't)
2. Should the driver remove the steering wheel and get out of the car
3. Should the driver follow marshals' explicit instructions to move quickly to a position of safety, such as behind a safety fence.

---

Following the interview done by Mr Mike Gascoyne of Spyker on Telegraph, he said that for the safety reasons, drivers beached in gravel trap and cannot get out under its own straight away are told to get out of the car quickly and move to a position of safety. Of course the engine should be switched off.

When the Torro Rosso hit the crane the safety car was already out as he narrowly missed hitting hit first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

---

The crane can't be operated without instructions from the race control.

And the crane can't ioperate without the SC deployed already. So, first the race control deploy the SC and then after they give a go ahead to the crane's staff to do their job. Which means there is no breach of rule, the crane operated while the SC was already released.