Alonso and Massa

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23rd July 2007, 15:07
F1MAN2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

He wouldn't be a competitive F1 driver otherwise.

It is good coming from you and you acknowledge this.
23rd July 2007, 15:12
andreag

He didn't attack him; whatch it carefully (I'm sure you can understand most of they say). First Alonso's words are quiet and calm.

Then Massa start moaning with "Va cagare", "coglioni", and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwHi_rWYZg
23rd July 2007, 15:19
cafenul

That's race guys, you cannot debate anything about that ! its better when there are fights like that !
23rd July 2007, 15:32
V12

I thought if anything it was Alonso who banged wheels with Massa and not the other way round, but given I was halfway between the edge of my seat and jumping off it when it happened, I may have been wrong in the heat of the moment

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Of course? Massa is Brazilian isn't he? They would talk a completely different native language to each other, if they had one common language my first guess would be English, but Pino has said it was Italian.

I think Massa's parents are Italian which would explain that even though his first language is Portuguese, not sure where Alonso knows the language from though, maybe he's just a good linguist :P
23rd July 2007, 16:16
F1MAN2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by V12

....., not sure where Alonso knows the language from though, maybe he's just a good linguist :P

I thaught he drove in the past for an Italian team? Where he learned the language.
23rd July 2007, 16:31
GRAVETT

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.
23rd July 2007, 16:36
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRAVETT

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.

thats pretty much how I saw it. I think that Massa could have held it a bit tighter but probably he wanted FA to know he'll not be a pushover and watch it sunshine.
23rd July 2007, 16:41
GRAVETT

exactly !! it was just hard racing. it seems alot of people have to over analyse things
23rd July 2007, 17:06
Donney

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRAVETT

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.

:up:
23rd July 2007, 17:09
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRAVETT

exactly !! it was just hard racing. it seems alot of people have to over analyse things

incidentally, I have a slightly different take on the Ralf / Hiedfeld issue.

my recollection is that Ralf knew that Nick was behind him and made a slight mistake exiting one of the corners.

Nick was on it quick and dove up the inside for the next corner. he wasn't just putting his nose in but was interlocking wheels when Ralf turned in.

I think Nick had every right to stuff it up the inside and if anything, Ralf should have known he was likely to try it and been prepared to make room. yet, some people here have claimed this is Nicks fault where I just cannot see it? I would say 60/40 against Ralf but a raing incident anyway.

what do you think?
23rd July 2007, 17:16
GRAVETT

i agree totally, it was another racing accident, heidfeld went in a bit too hot, but ralf new he was there and coming up the inside, he admitted so in his interview on itv, but didnt give anyroom to avoid a collision. the 60/40 spilt against ralf is spot on. everyone knows ralf is a pretty poor racer he has had more contact than most and hiedfeld is pretty hard but clean. if blame has to be laid anywhere then i feel its on schumachers doorstep not heidfelds
23rd July 2007, 18:02
markabilly

FA's quickest display of temper was monaco!!

Forget which year, but he crowds in on ralf Schumi (who had some sort of problem and was going slow) as they come out of tunnel and suddenly FA is going backward into the guardrail at 100mph plus

The in-car camera shows FA takes his hands off the stering wheel to give Ralfie the one finger with both hands, grabs the wheel and begins steerring the car almost to where he avoids the crash with the guardrail.

In USA, they showed the incident twice, then stopped after David Hobbs remarked about how remarkably fast fingers that FA had, to salute ralfie then almost regain control going backward after getting a m
"massive bump off poor rold ralfie".

Might have succeeded but it think the car was already too badly damaged by the contasct with RS to have made any difference.

After that, I became a fan of FA--got to give a hand or finger to a man who can do all that in micro seconds while going backward.... :mad: :s mokin:
23rd July 2007, 18:25
F1MAN2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by markabilly

Forget which year, but he crowds in on ralf Schumi (who had some sort of problem and was going slow) as they come out of tunnel and suddenly FA is going backward into the guardrail at 100mph plus

The in-car camera shows FA takes his hands off the stering wheel to give Ralfie the one finger with both hands, grabs the wheel and begins steerring the car almost to where he avoids the crash with the guardrail.

In USA, they showed the incident twice, then stopped after David Hobbs remarked about how remarkably fast fingers that FA had, to salute ralfie then almost regain control going backward after getting a m
"massive bump off poor rold ralfie".

Might have succeeded but it think the car was already too badly damaged by the contasct with RS to have made any difference.

After that, I became a fan of FA--got to give a hand or finger to a man who can do all that in micro seconds while going backward.... :mad: :s mokin:

It was Monaco 2004

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRv9i...related&search=
23rd July 2007, 18:43
donKey jote

Quote:

Originally Posted by V12

not sure where Alonso knows the language from though

He did time at Minardi ;)

Here's the clash again, with Spanish subtitles :p :

I don't know what Alonso said to him beforehand, but in my view it was Massa who was behaving more like a "prick" here (to quote ioan :dozey: ) )

http://www.elpais.com/videos/deporte...pepudep_2/Ves/

Anyway who cares, Alonso once again proved he's the rain master :D
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif
23rd July 2007, 19:12
OTA

Ioan
I think Alonso has given more than enought proof that he can pass in almost every place with much less space than 10m without kissing his mates. May be it's Felipe who should hold the stearing a bit harder.

Cheers
David
23rd July 2007, 19:34
Hendersen

Alonso may be the best F-1 driver right now, but damn does that guy constantly complain.
23rd July 2007, 20:10
F1MAN2007

Massa is always moaning!!!

Alonso proved once more why he is a WDC.
23rd July 2007, 20:33
V12

Totally forgot about his 2001 at Minardi there! I still think the collision was 50/50 at best though. Might search YouTube in a bit...
23rd July 2007, 21:37
Big Ben

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:

oh... the irony... great proposal

I could see again the difference between a good and a great driver. I hope you enjoyed the race. It was just great. Maybe everything will be undone on Thursday but nonetheless FA will be remembered for this one.

How can one say Massa is the good guy here? He was at fault and he´s the one who starts the dirty talking. I hate this type of fights but I think FM should be told he should mind the others drivers too... He was losing a position here and in Spain and in both cases he "did a race incident"... I don´t think he did it on purpose. I think it´s just poor driving
23rd July 2007, 23:15
samuratt

I think that Fernando has his right to complain because everytime he tries to pass Massa, both touch. And in F1, cars shouldn't touch. If you like this kind of races go nascar or touring cars. Above all, fernando this year has offered plenty of overtaking, and nobody has hitted him once but Massa (twice this year, form two overtakings).

Anyway I don't think Massa did it on purpose, he lost control of the car for a bit and slide onto Fernando's. Nothing wrong here but a very strong and nice fight.

Massa's reaction, altough aggresive, is easy to understand. Nobody wants to loose!

i think that rather to complain, what Alonso was trying to say to massa was: "it doesn't matter if you try to push me out, i will pass!"
23rd July 2007, 23:57
F1MAN2007

let 'us not talk about touching.

10 laps to the end, Alonso was tariling Massa for more than 8 secs and no one could imagine how Alonso can reduce the gap. Even himself he said that in that time he was pleased with 2nd place as long as Lewis and Kimmi were out.

But from 7 lap to the end, Alonso was reducing the gap and Massa was loosing the ground and strugling with the car. This happened before they go in pit line for intermediare tyres. They entered the pit line and the gap was reduced to 4 secs and something. 1 lap and half after the pit, the gap was 1 sec and already Alonso were completly in the rear wing of Massa and it is where they kissed for the first time before Alonso took that spectacular move and passed Massa.

For my point of view, if any driver can reduce the gap from 8 secs to 1 sec even below that, it means the driver in front should give a way and not try to block him by all the means he can. Particuraly when it is clear that the driver behind you is quicker than you.

So Massa was desperate and couldn't imagine what is happening to him and that is why he drove like a rookie. Even the rookie this time are better than him. Like Samuratt said above, I can't understand why in all overtaking done by Alonso so far this season, is only Massa who touched his car for 2 times?
I bet, next time both will be out.

And another thing is that the FIA stay silent in such manoeuvres which are semeed to be allowed. But here I recall Alonso and Heidfeld, Alonso and Lewis in USA and Kubica and Heidfeld in Germany and others.
24th July 2007, 02:15
raphael123

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I was happy that Felipe got 8th points rather than none.
Can't say the same about a certain Spaniard who wasn't happy with the 1st place either. :p :

If the guy on the top step of the podium was someone who wasn't happy, I'd be interested to see what he's like when he's happy!

Massa didn't look very happy. He even said 2nd place left him a bitter taste.

So, lets look at it, Alonso was all smiles, jumping with joy, Massa hardly smiled, said he wasn't happy, yet somehow you've managed to come to the conclusion that Felipe was happy and Alonso was unhappy! Talk about tinted red glasses!
24th July 2007, 02:23
raphael123

As for the arguement which followed, it seemed logical to me that Alonso would mention them two touching, which Massa reacted with foul language and aggressive behaviour. How anyone can critizise Alonso for simply mentioning it but not Massa is beyond me.

I didn't see anything wrong in the move in the sence that it was a racing incident, though Massa shouldn't really have banged Alonso's side, and as has been pointed out, twice Alonso has gone to overtake Massa, both times getting alongside MAssa, and twice Massa hasn't given Alonso enough room. The first time it worked as Alonso went onto the grass, the second time he didn't and just damaged his car instead.

My understanding is if you are alongside the other guy, it's to be expected that your rival should give you enough room (a car's width) - so far, both times Massa has simply turned into Alonso, which isn't really correct.

Anyone think differently?
24th July 2007, 04:46
Sergio-Rallymax

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinchote

I guess this is typical "Spanish objectivity" when talking about Alonso: the title says "Massa attacked Alonso with very serious insults", and then the article says that Alonso apologized to Massa :mark:

I do not know for that you are surprised, we all know that in Spain the major gutter press is... These of 2003 for behind were thinking that the followers of the F1 were frikies, now the Spanish press they are more fanatical than the own fans.
24th July 2007, 08:30
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuratt

i think that rather to complain, what Alonso was trying to say to massa was: "it doesn't matter if you try to push me out, i will pass!"

Sure, that's why he had to apologize publicly when he realized how stupid he was! :rolleyes:
24th July 2007, 08:34
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

For my point of view, if any driver can reduce the gap from 8 secs to 1 sec even below that, it means the driver in front should give a way and not try to block him by all the means he can. Particuraly when it is clear that the driver behind you is quicker than you.

That's what Alonso did in Imola in 2005? Oh no it isn't! Why didn't he? Because this is watching racing not ballet, that's why! :rolleyes:

I can't even believe you posted such thing in a racing forum! :eek:
24th July 2007, 08:38
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by raphael123

If the guy on the top step of the podium was someone who wasn't happy, I'd be interested to see what he's like when he's happy!

Massa didn't look very happy. He even said 2nd place left him a bitter taste.

So, lets look at it, Alonso was all smiles, jumping with joy, Massa hardly smiled, said he wasn't happy, yet somehow you've managed to come to the conclusion that Felipe was happy and Alonso was unhappy! Talk about tinted red glasses!

Quote:

Originally Posted by raphael123

As for the arguement which followed, it seemed logical to me that Alonso would mention them two touching...

The argument was before the podium ceremony.
And Alonso apologized in the post race press conference for his verbal attack. That means he acknowledged that we was wrong to blame him.
And you talk about tinted glasses?! :rolleyes:
24th July 2007, 09:00
ArrowsFA1

Things are said in the heat of the moment all the time. This time cameras were there to record it, sometimes they're not. Alonso has apologised, Massa has accepted the apology. End of.
24th July 2007, 09:03
janneppi

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

The argument was before the podium ceremony.
And Alonso apologized in the post race press conference for his verbal attack. That means he acknowledged that we was wrong to blame him.
And you talk about tinted glasses?! :rolleyes:

Alonso was man enough to say sorry, it seems Massa isn't.
and Alonso apologised for the wording, not for the subject, so no admission of wrongly accusing Massa there.
24th July 2007, 09:28
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by janneppi

Alonso was man enough to say sorry, it seems Massa isn't.
and Alonso apologised for the wording, not for the subject, so no admission of wrongly accusing Massa there.

Are you unhappy that Kimi "BreakemAll" Räikkönen broke another car and Massa didn't?! :p :
24th July 2007, 09:34
janneppi

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?
24th July 2007, 09:40
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by janneppi

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?

Might be the fact that Felipe didn't have mechanical failures for a long time? You can't stop talking rubbish about him because he is doing better than Kimi, that's as clear as possible. :D
24th July 2007, 10:15
F1MAN2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Sure, that's why he had to apologize publicly when he realized how stupid he was! :rolleyes:

Apologising doesn't mean that you are stupid man, come on? :rolleyes:

But apologising is a courage and I am sure Alonso found that it was not necessary to argue with such kind of little boy who always moaning instead of showing actions and losing the race every time he is heading to victory? :down:

Even following the way he has been behaving in weighing room, it showed who he is?
24th July 2007, 10:19
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

Apologising doesn't mean that you are stupid man, come on? :rolleyes:

But apologising is a courage and I am sure Alonso found that it was not necessary to argue with such kind of driver who always moaning instead of showing actions and losing the race every time he is heading to victory? :down:

Even following the way he has been behaving in weighing room, it showed who he is?

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:
24th July 2007, 10:23
Donney

Don't forget Massaism which is not doing you any good. :rolleyes:
24th July 2007, 10:30
F1MAN2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:

They say : " IF YOU CAN'T WIN THEM, YOU JOIN THEM" :D

Alonso is 2 times WDC and youngest to win a WDC (Record)
Hamiliton has 9 podiums in his 10 races started so far (record as a rookie)

So what has got Massa as a record?! :eek:
24th July 2007, 10:39
janneppi

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Might be the fact that Felipe didn't have mechanical failures for a long time? You can't stop talking rubbish about him because he is doing better than Kimi, that's as clear as possible. :D

So it was Massa who screwed up in Silverstone start instead of the car stalling?
Good to know.

Again, what does that have to do with Massa being childish towards Alonso?
24th July 2007, 11:50
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by janneppi

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:
24th July 2007, 12:21
janneppi

Quote:

Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:

Without dragging the discussion more off topic, Most likely a coincidence. Or can you really establish a trend after two DNF and few races?
24th July 2007, 13:31
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of a certain N Stepney's role within Ferrari prior to MS leaving, is that he was a contributory factor to the development of an ethos that meant quality control and an attention to the minutae of the manufacturing & construction process resulted in Ferrari's legendary reliability.

It is not Kimi that is causing the car to break, it is that Ferrari were so short sighted to sack the one remaining guy that did the team any good.

I tell you, that team will self destruct and become the useless joke that they were in the late eighties/early nineties - you can see it has already begun.

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