Jo Schlesser :http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr167.html
I had the picture of the Honda or what was left of it, but I've lost the MOTOR magazine now.
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Jo Schlesser :http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr167.html
I had the picture of the Honda or what was left of it, but I've lost the MOTOR magazine now.
Derek Warwick was always very fast but seemed to always be in the right car a year too late i.e. Lotus.
Brundle matched Senna in F3 and had a second place in his first season but never got the results he was capable of. Could have been a World Champion though if Frank Williams had stuck to the contract he had for Martin before signing Damon Hill for 1993.
For all his talent, Jean Alesi only winning one race was a tragedy.
No, Bellof was nowhere the driver Prost and Senna were.Quote:
Originally Posted by eloyf1
What is that opinion based on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Betrand Gachot,
who was fast but caused his own downfall. It didn't help that MS replaced him and basically ended his F1 career.
On a mre recent note, Weldon from the IRL. I think he might/should get a look in F1.
Going back further in time, Tim Schenken was another who could have made it really big. He produced some fine performances for Brabham and Surtees in the early 70s, and also starred for Ferrari in sportscars. After failing to be picked up by a big team (despite a couple of drives for Lotus), his career quietly faded away.
Very sadly, not much.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Jordi Gené. He was level and beat many times Barricello and Coulthard in British F3 and F3000. But he was too soft in a test with Benetton and later the failed spanish Bravo F1 project made him disappear. Perhaps not a world champion but he could have won some races for sure.
Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.
The reason Bellof is so highly regarded, despite the fact he did pretty much nothing in F1, comes down to one thing - his death on racetrack. Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them. That is undeniable nostalgia.
Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Priorat
Ironically, of course, his brother Marc made much more of an impact than he did, later on.
Anyone remember Stephane Sarrazin's brief foray into F1? Ok, maybe not world champion material, but could have been a handy guy for a team like Prost or Minardi.
Marc Gene had a good start, but look rather flat in 2004 I remember. Still, had talent (a smart bloke too).
I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
My point is that after 1.5 Formula One seasons in an underpowered Tyrell and potential shown during that time, you cannot possibly prove that he would or would not have amounted to someone like Senna or Prost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.
As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Flagg
I remember Sarrazin's amazing crash and spin at Interlagos! Seriously, he did seem to have the makings of a GP driver.
I think Garry speaks some sense. Don't get me wrong, Senna and Villeneuve are my two greatest heroes, but it's interesting how people erase their bad points from memory. Particularly in the case of Senna.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlMetro
Sarrazin qualified 18th for the Brazilian Grand Prix in a Minardi, also outqualifying team-mate Gene there. Sarrazin also did pretty well in F3000. So I think he could have deserved more chances in F1. But as the competition is so tight and there are clearly more drivers, who deserve to be in F1 than those, who actually are there, then alas all the talents can't get a proper chance. And Stephane happened to be in the latter group.
Senna only just beat Brundle in the British F3 championship the year before, in more or less equal cars (I am assuming that they are very close to equal) so how you could say with such certainty that Bellof would not have been as good as Prost or Senna with such certainty?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Very well put. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
I don't think that 22 GP's for the declining Tyrrell team enables us to be as sure of Bellof's future career as you appear to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
For one thing his performance in the '84 Monaco GP should not readily be dismissed, as he almost matched that kind of performance with 4th in Detroit the following year in different, but equally difficult, conditions. Having said that, Brundle was ahead until Alliot took him out of the race.
Bellof's death, and the passing of time, should not diminsh the potential he showed.
More about Stefan Bellof here - http://www.stefanbellof.de/
What about Elio De Angelis? I never saw him race myself and am wondering what other think of him. Here are some statistics comparing him and his teammates through all the full seasons in which he has raced (1979-1985)
1979 Team Shadow
De Angelis: 16th position (3 pts)
Jan Lammers: last place (0 pts)
1980 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 7th position (13 pts, 1 podium )
Mario Andretti: 20th position (1pt)
1981 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 8th position (14 pts)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (8 pts, 1 podium)
1982 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 9th position (23 pts, 1 win)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (7 pts, 1 podium)
1983 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 18th position (2pts)
Nigel Mansell: 13th position (10 pts, 1 podium)
1984 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 3rd position (34 pts, 4 podiums)
Nigel Mansell: 10th position (13 pts, 2 podiums)
1985 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 5th position (33 pts, 1 win, 3 podiums)
Ayrton Senna: 4th position (38 pts, 2 wins, 6 podiums)
As shown, De Angelis was faced with championship material drivers in 6 of the 7 full seasons in which he raced and managed to beat them in 4 times out of 6. He almost matched Senna in points in 1985 as well. Like many other possible talents, he too died in an F1 race in 1986 before ever having a chance at driving a car that can regularly challenge for wins or podiums.
Test session, you mean. De Angelis was no doubt a very very good driver. Could have been a World champion. Only if...Quote:
Originally Posted by akv89
To be fair Elio did get his break and had the opportunity to show his ability, which he certainly did alongside the likes of Andretti, Mansell & Senna.
One of his team-mates, Jan Lammers, could perhaps be considered as someone who didn't really get a break in F1. His 4th place on the grid at Long Beach in 1980 gave a hint of what he was capable of, but a rumoured Ferrari drive in '82 was scuppered (IIRC) because he had an injury at a crucial time and he never got anywhere near a competitive car.
Though not the one he deserved, considering how many years he beat Mansell in Lotus.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
There's this view of Mansell's time at Lotus that he was favoured by Chapman (despite his comment about Nige that "We've got this bloody whining noise coming from the car.... but it doesn't stop when you turn the engine off"), although after Chapman's death Peter Warr was no fan of the Brit ("Mansell will never win a grand prix as long as there is a hole in my a**e").
Once Mansell headed off for Williams Elio was then faced with Senna, but was far from disgraced against him either, so yes, there's a strong argument to say de Angelis deserved more.
Thats a quality reply, you really embarrased me there and dismantled my post :rotflmao: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlMetro
We can compare his results to those of his teammate and he wasnt doing much better than Brundle. Brundle never amounted to much in his F1 career. That, btw, is a fact. Now make your own conclusions based on the facts I gave you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Considering you werent even born when Prost and Senna started driving, how would you know? Both Prost and Senna shone far more against their respective teammates at the beginning of their F1 careers. While it is true that in Sennas case, his teammate was weaker than Brundle, his performances were very impressive. Prost, though, was faced with a teammate who was superior to that of Brundle.Quote:
I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.
No one in F1 was as impressed with Bellof, as they were with Senna back in 84. They only started saying "oh, bellof, that guy would have won for sure" when he had his unfortunate fatal crash.
There is nothing that indicates Bellof could have gone on to be as successful as Senna or Prost. Going by the same piece of logic, I could say "Yoong could have gone on to be as successful as Schumi, had you given him a Ferrari seat", but there is nothing at all to indicate that would have been the case. The same is the case with Bellof, or do we need to hype every driver who has died on the racetrack as "oh, he could have gone to win many titles" :rolleyes:Quote:
As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.
Indeed. Funny how JFK was the best president and Princess Diana became such a legend after her death. There are countless examples. If you are good at your chosen field, but want to become a legend, then all you have to do is make sure you die young and the public hears about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans
Senna was dominating The British F3 series totally, then lost his form after half a season. He was clearly superior to Brundle.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Besides that, you cant compare it like this. As F3 drivers, they could have been near equal. But when they came to F1, it was very obvious to everyone that Senna was by far the better and faster driver. Remember, some drivers are good in lesser series (take Liuzzi and Trulli - both super go-kart drivers, but not so super anymore when it comes to F1), but cant manage it in F1. There are cases of the opposite being true too. Take JV for example. He wasnt that brilliant in lower series, till he reached Indycar (grealty due to his name for sure) and then did pretty well there. Even with the Great Schumi, no one could have predicted he would go on to become the best and most successful driver ever based on his appearances in lesser series.
You mean the Detroit race in 85 where Brundle outqualified him by over 0,3 seconds and where in the race, most of the big names had car problems causing them to retire? How often did it happen to someone like Senna that a driver without any victories in a long F1 career, outqualified him so clearly?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
The fact is - You can only be directly compared to your teammate. Bellof should have, if he wanted to go on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, destroyed Brundle, but he didnt. I suspect that is the reason why the teambosses of Big teams hired Senna and werent interested in Bellof. Obviously, after Bellof died, everyone lost their minds and Bellof suddenly became an alltime great, potential bestever :rolleyes: .
Mansell is the biggest crybaby of alltimes in F1. He had problems in pretty much every race of his career, at least according to him. Hell, even that FW14B in 1992 was a damn horrible car and had big issues every race. It is no surprise he would complain about getting mistreated, it wouldnt be the first time in his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
You simply cannot compare the likes of Yoong with Bellof unless, that is, the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument. In which case, yes, they had the same potential because they both got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
I take your point about death making a legend out of someone, but death robs us of potential being realised. It doesn't mean that potential was never there.
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Of the three teams who claimed to sign Jean Alesi for 1991, it would have been most interesting if Jean had signed for Williams instead of Ferrari. Of course, he didn't match Prost in Ferrari in 1991, but then again nor did Mansell the year before, who was champion of 1992. Perhaps the same fate could have been for Jean Alesi, who was in his 20's at the time as opposed to the 38 year old Mansell. A case of huge potential never being realised.
Prost was also outscored 8-7 in his debut season against someone who was decent, but not outstandingly special it must be said, based on statistics and team-mate comparisons. From that outlook, 51 wins mustn't have looked too likely. Prost did very good, of course, but you can't determine future success from 1 season in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Yoong never could realize his potential either - almost no testing, no resources in the Minardi. He would have been by far better if he had been given an opportunity to enjoy a full-functional team, not a monkey one. Considering the eras, Bellof probably actually enjoyed better opportunity than AY. Neither could ever realize their full potential, for different reasons, but in the time they had, they didnt impress enough to deserve to get mentioned in the same sentence as drivers like Schumi, Senna and Prost.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
It was actually 5:6. Prost missed one race aswell, but what you arent understanding is that he was straight from the box clearly quicker than Watson. Watson was a driver who achieved far more in his career than Bellofs respective teammate (Brundle) managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
And where did I claim people in this thread said that?Quote:
No one has said "WOULD have won" in this thread, as far as I can see. He could have acheived much more, as could any sportsman who has had their career cut short, like Wayne Rainey for example.
yeah, Im sure Bellof would have achieved more, maybe a few podiums, but thats it. He showed NO SIGNS of actually being a potential world champion.
Tell that to the poster who originally made the ludicrous claim that he could have gone on to be as successful as Senna and Prost, when there is no evidence, nothing at all to indicate that.Talk about telling people what isnt there. Only someones emotions talking, because a driver was killed on racetrack and once with a cheating non-turbo car was doing well in the rain.Quote:
I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't think he could have matched Prost or Senna, but he could have been a very successful driver nonetheless. But I don't tell people what isn't there.
These are who I think were Underrtaed.:-
Pierluigi Martini: Superb at Minardi, deserved a Ferrari seat.
Jos Verstappen: Could have been a contender for the championship.
Stefano Modena: Realiable midfield driver.
Pedro De La Rosa: Seen Some great drives for Arrows and McLaren.
please tell me you are joking. He wouldnt have won the championship even if he was driving the current McLaren and everyone else had Toyotas.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA
Verstappen's "problem" was that he was inconsistent (and several current drivers are also described with the same word), but he definetely had the raw speed and was one of the best drivers in wet conditions. I have always thought he deserved another chance in a top team after Benetton '94, where a mix of inexperience, unluck and favouring of MS resulted in disappointing performances.
You may be looking purely at his short F1 career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Bellof dominated Sportscar Racing in the Porsche 956, regularly beat one of the best drivers ever in Jackie Ickx and became Worldchampion. Plus he is the one who nailed the fastest time ever recorded at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. These are some indications of pure speed that can not be ignored.
Bellof seemed to possess the necessary raw material, but rarely got the opportunity to display it in F1. His displays in sportscars and F2 only hinted at what he may have achieved.
It seems the mere fact that they both reached F1 is your argument after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Bellof was mighty in sportscars, but I would say that the level of driving in sportscars is quite much weaker than the one displayed in F1. Added to that, some drivers naturally suit sportscars much more than open-wheelers. I reckon that is the case with Bellof too. When he beat Jacky Ickx, Ickx was already nearing 40, so naturally his abilities were decreasing whilst Bellof was in his prime. Dont derive from his achievements in sportscars, that he would have gone on to do big things in F1. You simply cant compare those 2 like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMcQueen
How many F1 drivers have tried the Nordschleife with serious cars? So his record, whilst impressive, doesnt show it all.
No. I dont see the relevance your statement in the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
The point is that Yoong never showed anything like the level of potential we saw in Bellof. The level of each of their ability is as far apart as their names in a phone book.
Now that's not to say Bellof would have been a multiple GP winner or champion, but he was highly regarded by many. Then again, so was Stefano Modena and where did he go wrong?
He never had the chance to show it. Its taking drivers like Kimi 10K KM to start liking the car, Yoong pretty much never got to test at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Maybe he was like Mansell, who needed time? Remember, Mansell was the guy who didnt really ever outperform his teammates for much of his career. Especially at the beginning of it.
He was. But there is no need to make such statements that he could have equalled Senna or Prost, without their being any hint of proof of that.Quote:
Now that's not to say Bellof would have been a multiple GP winner or champion, but he was highly regarded by many.
Actually, Ferrari were interested in signing Bellof, but had Alboreto and Arnoux under contract for the 85 season. When Ferrari sacked Rene after Rio, Tyrell wouldn't let Bellof go (partly because his impending Renault engine deal depended on Bellof being one of the drivers) so Johansson got the seat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker