Stupid rules in WRC cirkus or how to change for the better

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Modern rally drivers are already lucky in having the Rally 2 option to continue.

Year's ago if you broke down or crashed you were out of the rally, period.

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Until 1995 you had flying service between every stage, or even during the stage. Helicopter service was banned in 1986, and mid-stage tyre changes were banned in 1988. In 1995 that service parks came, but there were many of them, typically between 30-50 km of stages. From 2001 or so it's been mostly single service park location. Super rally was introduced in 2005. There were still usually two visits to the service park during a day. Around 2010 this started changing towards only one midday service during the rally day (in addition to morning and evening).

The first superrally was arranged in 1999 along the first power stages (aka TV stage). Crews who had retired were allowed to take part in the TV stage and score additional points.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Modern rally drivers are already lucky in having the Rally 2 option to continue.
Year's ago if you broke down or crashed you were out of the rally, period.
Re Tanak on Monte - he chose to have one spare and so took the risk of two punctures.

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And I am quite happy to cut the option of cars returning the day after, when repaired.
If you have to stop on a stage, whatever the reason might be, you are out of the rally.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

And I am quite happy to cut the option of cars returning the day after, when repaired.
If you have to stop on a stage, whatever the reason might be, you are out of the rally.

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The purist in me agrees. The realist knows we have it, and it's staying as it ensures more cars on the stages. However, as I've often complained, if you SupeRally/ Rally2, you CAN'T finish ahead of someone who has done the full event.

If you return under Rally 2 on the last day (to try for PS points), your times on the preceding stages should have to be within a certain percentage of a set figure to stop you tyre saving.

The PS should be made equal for everyone especially now that there are Manu points on it too.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

If you return under Rally 2 on the last day (to try for PS points), your times on the preceding stages should have to be within a certain percentage of a set figure to stop you tyre saving.

The PS should be made equal for everyone especially now that there are Manu points on it too.

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So why not put up a new set of tires for all PS drivers? So we get rid of the theatre on Sundays...

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

So why not put up a new set of tires for all PS drivers? So we get rid of the theatre on Sundays...

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They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)

How about all cars have to carry an emergency super-lightweight space-saver spare wheel for road use only ?

Then no more problems getting back to service and it will be the same for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

If you return under Rally 2 on the last day (to try for PS points), your times on the preceding stages should have to be within a certain percentage of a set figure to stop you tyre saving.

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But then Greensmith couldn't enter the power stage :D

EDIT: Joking aside, this kind of rule would obviously be very hard to put into practice.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)

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I knew your answer beforehand... :) :)

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Originally Posted by Mirek

They cut the overall number of available tyres year by year because of cost reductions. Tell them you want extra tyres just for PS and you'll see the answer ;)

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As if those 4 tyres mean anything when it comes to cost saving.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

As if those 4 tyres mean anything when it comes to cost saving.

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Don't tell that to me.

I only stated how it is.

Regarding flying service, in 1990 I accidentally passed from the yard Toyota had its service cars one day before Acropolis. I counted 27 small and big trucks.
And in 1985 I have seen with my own eyes Blomqvist's Audi (finished 2nd that year) and Wittman's Golf (1st in GrA) about 500 m. out of the official liaison section, in the city of Athens, spending more than one hour in the building of the official VW-Audi dealer in Greece, while they traveled in the night to the park-ferme before the last day. Both of the cars arrived there in racing speeds, got into the building and all doors closed as soon as they got in. They were also driven in racing speeds when they left for the Time Control, which was about 50 kms away.
Flying service must not return in any form, for any reason. Although I loved it when we had it in Greek championship, it is extremely expensive and can lead to situations of dishonesty.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

EDIT: Joking aside, this kind of rule would obviously be very hard to put into practice.

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It's hardly rocket science.

I think something should be done, esp with the PS now scoring Manu points.

There could be all kinds of tactics, not just tyre-saving, at the end of the season when the title is decided. Some cars could be cruising all rally to stay in good condition in case they're 'needed' to go all-out for the PS Manu points.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

It's hardly rocket science.

I think something should be done, esp with the PS now scoring Manu points.

There could be all kinds of tactics, not just tyre-saving, at the end of the season when the title is decided. Some cars could be cruising all rally to stay in good condition in case they're 'needed' to go all-out for the PS Manu points.

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I don’t see this happening. You can only nominate three cars to score points. Being positioned high gives more points than power stage, so it makes no sense to cruise during the beginning of the event just for those few power stage points.

Having ”maximum times” would disqualify drivers who get a puncture or a spin or some other issue...and you guys would complain again!

Meanwhile, I don’t like the new power stage point additions.

If all 3 nominated cars finish and the 2 highest placed get the overall Manu points, cant their 3rd highest car be used to go flat-out to try to bag maximum Manu points on the PS ?

This might not happen early in the season but near the end, if the standings are tight, it could.

Possibly another recipe for tactics and confusion.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

If all 3 nominated cars finish and the 2 highest placed get the overall Manu points, cant their 3rd highest car be used to go flat-out to try to bag maximum Manu points on the PS ?

This might not happen early in the season but near the end, if the standings are tight, it could.

Possibly another recipe for tactics and confusion.

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I see that as right way to do it.

Power Stage flat out !

Biggest problem is if that 3rd car gets DNF it could give more personal points to opponents.
If 3rd car is doing Rally2(superrally) then it´s different story...

Since we have this thread I would like to bring up something I found unnecessarily unfair ever since I started following all stages of a rally - Starting order on Friday. Most of the time championship leader is put into a tough position but is able suffer through the day and start fighting back over the rest of the weekend. Under certain circumstances however the starting position can eliminate him completely from the competition with no chance of fighting back. (See Sweden 2018 discussion in the arctic rally thread)
What could be changed? How about making the thursday evening's mickey mouse stage decide the order? First finisher could choose the starting position first, second finisher can choose after that etc. This way starting order positive or negative effects would be more consistent throughout the year (gravel vs tarmac rallys) It would also bring more excitement to thursdays stage. Assuming we can get back to the pre COVID rally setups in the future.

You might argue that thursdays stage is most of the time not charachteristic of the rest of the rally and therefor not suitable but in my opinion it would still be better than current system.

What are your thoughts on the starting order and would you change it in any way?

That is a neverending discussion. I don't know how long you follow rallying but basically everything was already tried (including qualification stage which is still in use in ERC).

By the way it's not true that the friday starting order is always disadvantage for the first runners. Sometimes it is even big advantage, typically in Germany, often on other asphalts, sometimes in Monte carlo, sometimes even on gravel - for example in night dusty stages or in strong rain, even on snow it can be sometimes an advantage. For sure on most of the gravel events it's big disadvantage but in the end the consensus is that it doesn't limit the best drivers that much - Ogier and especially Loeb opened the road countless times and it didn't stop them from crushing their opponents. Also from the audience perspective it adds some spice to the show.

By the way to start first will be likely a decisive advantage in Ypres, if that event takes place.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/is-the-po...ge-still-fair/

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

https://dirtfish.com/rally/is-the-po...ge-still-fair/

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I don't find this a problem myself, but apparently many people do.

Like Matton says, adding fresh tyres is an easy solution, but against cost/environmental idealism. At the same time, it wouldn't mean super rally restarters would push for stage wins in the morning stages, they would still just have to get through without breaking the car.

One solution would be to remove all Sunday stages except power stage (and it's first run). Less rallying in total, but also less cruising, if that's really a problem.

What if they return the qualifying stage to determine the starting order of day 1, and mark the tyres used there and make those the ones to be used for the powerstage. One solution for two problems, except if the weather conditions on PS are very different from QS, then new tyres only for PS could be an (expensive) option.

Power stage poses certain unfair situations and tyres is not the only one. If someone is first or second with big gap from the next one, it is not wise to risk in the last stage so he has a disadvantage. We have seen this many times because it is simply common sense. This is actually a punishment to the most successful driver of the rally. What is fair about punishing the most successful or making him take risks that are stupid to take?
Also, tyre issue cannot be solved without fresh tyres for everyone, which means an annual 15000 cost for each car. I don't know if this is a problem for teams with multi-million budgets, but I don't see any other solution.
Reducing the whole duration of actual rallying just for the Sunday TV is something that I would not like to see. Rallies are already too small, to the point that they have lost every element of adventure for the spectators. Spectating used to be an adventure and this was an element that spectators loved about rallying. Now it is like going to a hillclimb or even a football match.

We could make it like the golden stage in cyprus. End the rally, stop the timing, award the points, give everyone new tyres and service, and let them drive as fast as they can without other worries.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

We could make it like the golden stage in cyprus. End the rally, stop the timing, award the points, give everyone new tyres and service, and let them drive as fast as they can without other worries.

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To me this seems odd, like having an external rallycross contest on the side of the actual rally

Think from the perspective of someone who is restarting on Sunday just to score on this Golden Stage, why would they push at all on the Sunday stages? It doesn't solve the actual issue.

Well they're not going to get rid of it; it's become a 'selling point' of the sport/ event. To be honest, I've never had a problem with drivers cruising on the final day, that to is a skill; but maybe that's because I watch plenty of GT racing and is quite common.

I don't like the fact people on SupeRally/ Rally 2 have an advantage for the Power Stage; that doesn't make sense; that needs changing.

However, not that I think could work in the WRC, but I like what they do in the Enduro MTB series; on two rounds, they've run a Friday night 'super stage' which counts towards the event, but award extra points - before the 4 stages the following day, including a re-run of the super stage.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I don't find this a problem myself, but apparently many people do.

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Toyota driver Elfyn Evans says enough’s enough. The time has come for change.

“If you’ve had a tough weekend and you’re running, say, sixth or something like that, then you have somebody who has retired on Thursday, saved their tires and comes back to win the powerstage and take the five points. You’ve driven the whole route for eight points and they’ve done a stage and taken five or something like that. It feels disproportionate.”

You think this is fair Antti ?

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Toyota driver Elfyn Evans says enough’s enough. The time has come for change.

“If you’ve had a tough weekend and you’re running, say, sixth or something like that, then you have somebody who has retired on Thursday, saved their tires and comes back to win the powerstage and take the five points. You’ve driven the whole route for eight points and they’ve done a stage and taken five or something like that. It feels disproportionate.”

You think this is fair Antti ?

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Yes. First of all, it's not so easy to get 5 power stage points. Even with your preserved tyres, you had to drive the stage without mistakes. And remember that super rally restarters are first WRC cars on the road.

Meanwhile, if you're sixth, why not take a gamble at saving your tyres throughout Sunday? You might drop a place, but you could get five more points from the power stage?

At the same time, this is a whole different topic. Elfyn is questioning whether power stage should have this much value or not.

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

However, not that I think could work in the WRC, but I like what they do in the Enduro MTB series; on two rounds, they've run a Friday night 'super stage' which counts towards the event, but award extra points - before the 4 stages the following day, including a re-run of the super stage.

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So essentially it's just a power stage, but they have it already at the end of first day? Does the super stage award extra points on Saturday as well?

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

To me this seems odd, like having an external rallycross contest on the side of the actual rally

Think from the perspective of someone who is restarting on Sunday just to score on this Golden Stage, why would they push at all on the Sunday stages? It doesn't solve the actual issue.

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The whole idea of a powerstage is strange. It doesn't belong to the concept of rally. The fastest drivers should get the points in my eyes, and nothing more.

But i understand it was implemented so drivers would push on at least one stage on sunday, which they could then show on tv.

So a golden stage would be the best of both worlds. Drivers have a reason to push on a stage, but the fight is more equal for everybody. And they can driver faster all of sunday, since they don't need to save their tyres.

Nothing can make drivers push on all stages except giving points for every stage.

I remember when they used to say that Power stage was also a way for super-rally drivers to have something to fight for and not end the weekend with 0 points. It's normal they'll have an advantage compared to the drivers who are in point scoring positions.
But I think 3-2-1 point system is more proportionate than 5-4-3-2-1.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

We could make it like the golden stage in cyprus. End the rally, stop the timing, award the points, give everyone new tyres and service, and let them drive as fast as they can without other worries.

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This, with the reduction of points to 3-2-1, seems the most fair proposition.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

So a golden stage would be the best of both worlds. Drivers have a reason to push on a stage, but the fight is more equal for everybody. And they can driver faster all of sunday, since they don't need to save their tyres.

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I repeat: if drivers are in "no-mands-land" with minutes back and front or super rally, they have no reason to push anyway. Of course they won't drive road mode, but not pushing for stage wins either. This is a part of rallying.

The golden stage would split the excitement of rally win and power stage win into two different stages. And both would have to be televised.

For me one part of power stage excitement is that the extra point risk is included in the whole rally result. It's really extraordinary when someone wins the rally and the power stage, they are willing to risk the rally win for the extra points.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I repeat: if drivers are in "no-mands-land" with minutes back and front or super rally, they have no reason to push anyway. Of course they won't drive road mode, but not pushing for stage wins either. This is a part of rallying.

The golden stage would split the excitement of rally win and power stage win into two different stages. And both would have to be televised.

For me one part of power stage excitement is that the extra point risk is included in the whole rally result. It's really extraordinary when someone wins the rally and the power stage, they are willing to risk the rally win for the extra points.

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as i said, nothing can make drivers push on all stages except giving points for every stage. that's nothing new.

but you're missing the point here. the problem is that drivers cruise through at the speed of their grandmother to save their tyres for the powerstage, where they would otherwise just drive fast but safe as they did before. the fact that they can get more points by driving very slow has actually ruined a big part of sunday.

the powerstage splits the excitement anyway.

Yeah, I know there is no easy solution.

I tried to find earlier examples of this tyre saving thing. Ogier has seemed to attempt it in Portugal 2018 (having crashed on Friday). He finished 10th, 16th and 9th on the "normal" Sunday stages, won the Fafe first run but finished only 8th on the power stage. His tyre saving tactics wasn't enough because of the compromised starting position?

Keep 5-4-3-2-1 for the power stage but pay higher points in the rally (35-28-25-22-20-18-16-14-12-10?)

Why should tenth be awarded with nearly 1/3 of the points of the winner?

I don't see why we would need this "let's assign one billion points to everybody for whatever accomplishment they get in a rally". So we end up like NASCAR and their classifications with 5278 points per driver.
Already assigning points to the top 10 is generous, considering usually we have less than 10 WRC cars. To me, being faster than Rally2 cars is not good enough to score points, but I understand we cannot change the point scoring system every time, according to the number of WRC cars.

Cruising also happens because there just aren't enough kilometres on a Sunday AM. Usually this day is wasted and drivers go to bed on Saturday knowing where they will finish. More KM could encourage more racing but it could cement positions with growing gaps. It's also costly and with the trend being shorter rallies I would shorten Friday and lengthen Sunday thus moving the racing KMs and attack strategy.

Typical itinerary could be:
Friday AM: Shakedown/Quali
Friday PM, the initial charge: (20%) Perhaps a Power Stage as SS1 as a statement of intent, or one for the early evening TV in summer
Saturday, the battles appear: (40%) 2 loops
Sunday, settle or gamble: (40%) 2 loops

Either shift the existing PS to a later time or make the final TC and Media Zone a Sunday afternoon/evening 'live TV show' if it's required with the interviews and podium then and using the best highlights as action. I absolutely detest this notion that the championship revolves around a TV hour at Sunday lunchtime. Real fans can watch any stage live if they wish. Casual viewers wouldn't know if it was actually live or a repeat of 3 days ago. The idea that people are all sat at home on a Sunday watching the one TV in the house as a happy family and there's no internet, and once we've seen them on the podium IMMEDIATELY and stood to the anthem - we don't need to hear from, talk about, think about, read the news about WRC until the next event's power stage. Get ******* real. We've all got 3 screens, working all sorts of shifts and we're spread across timezones.

I'll also say points per stage will just create silly 50 stage itineraries to suit the local driver. Points per leg is much better.

There's nothing wrong with restarting but the penalty should be minutes/KM lost not 10m per stage. Nominal times are worked on /km basis so shouldn't be an issue.

I have understood the Power stage live broadcast is set to Sunday noon not to overlap with other popular sports (F1 later in the afternoon, football on Saturday evening). I could be wrong though.

It’s also good to remember the people who travel to the events, they want to get home before Monday. Some even would prefer rallies ending on Saturday (like a few rallies did in early 2010’s).

I wrote about this (just before COVID changed many rallies to be three days long) with interviews and collected quotes from drivers.

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/...in-three-days/

I remember the conversation happening when Estonia was brought in and that was a good re-read thank you.

I very nearly wrote Thursday to Saturday would work for me. I've been in the Service Park on Sundays and it gets dismantled and packed up around you, which emphasises the point that Sundays don't exist. A Saturday finish could make a more lively service park - not that Finland or Salou struggle. Do all the podium, pr and autograph stuff then, unless the drivers just don't want to appear after the last stage. But you can get the only flight on a Sunday at 5am!