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Originally Posted by truefan72
Eh? Charles and Seb were clearly told not to fight for position at the start and just defend against the Mercs so Charles didnt defend against Seb... who then ignored team orders to let Charles back in front.
I see it more like Karma..
Come on "The Boss" :dork:
Why didn't rbr pit verstappen for softs?
Bottas needs to effin push.
Come on 'ottas!
McLerc is falling back to cool off tires!
Bottas is "The Man"!
Wtf is diresta talking about?
Leclerc deserves p2?
Vettel is driver of the day?
Lol
Albon is clearly driver of the day right now
Aldo crofty had been getting drivers wrong all day
Albon started from the back and is about to finish in p5 and he isn't even considered for driver of the day??????
Crofty with another nugget.
"Hamilton hasn't won since Hungary"
Saying it as if it was such a long time ago.
Is that a compliment or just another foolish comment?
You decide
That online FIA driver of the day poll is utter rubbish
It's a fact ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Boss is going to do it......Sweet!
Great job Bottas
Yes he did!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Get in there lewis
Both he and Bottas extend their championship leads
It’s embarrassing. All the butt hurt Ferrari fans voting for Vettel just to get some kind of solace at his retirement. I was glad Vettel retired. If there is a team agreement you need to keep it. Charles kept his part, gave Vettel the slipstream. Whether or not Vettel believed he would have gotten by anyway is irrelevant. An agreement is an agreement. if you’re not willing to accept it in all circumstances then don’t make it. Ferrari did the right thing by flexing their muscles and pitting Charles first so he could get by again.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Good to see Mercedes winning. It’s just a matter of time before they win both championships now. I have heard that they switched focus to next years car before the summer break and have not concentrated on developing this years car very much. That would line up with why Ferrari have caught them so much.
Bottas was a good wingman again today, but that’s about it.
This is why l am not a Ferrari fan. I hate this about how this team go racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
It depends on what the agreement was. If the agreement was that should Vettel get by LeClerc after LeClerc provides him the slipstream then of course he should let him by. LeClerc gave him a slipstream and played the team game, Vettel should hold up his end of the bargain too. Remember Hungary 17 when Hamilton held up his end of the bargain to let Bottas by after Bottas let him past to have a go at the Ferraris? Same applies here. Agreements must be honoured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Strange race to say the least.
Whatever agreement was made before the start, they managed to piss off both drivers doing it. First Leclerc by not putting their foot down with Seb, then Seb by leaving him out to let Leclerc get out ahead again. Maybe something as simple as **gasp** let the drivers race as long as they don't destroy the cars would work better? Then I think they added insult to injury by pitting Leclerc under the safety car. I personally think he would have stayed ahead of Bottas without the stop, and the first stint should have showed them that the chances of catching up to Lewis were slim to none anyway.
Merc might have got lucky with strategy, but the timing of that VSC gave them a race 1-2 finish. With the qually differences I thought Leclerc might have a better shot at Bottas, but it seemed that holding off the Ferrari wasn't all that hard for him really. Without that VSC I think the Ferrari's still would have come out on top, but Merc did have good race pace. Lewis did a good job staying on the back of Leclerc with the tire differences, but I think attacking would have been out of the question.
Great action through the midfield today. DOTD for me would have been Albon, as that was a come from the pits drive that most of us only expect from the more proven greats. Really the lower 5 of the top 10 all had really good drives today.
I havent watched the race yet... only kept rough track of it on the 5 live feed.
In Vett ignoring the team orders... did that force Ferrari into a pit strategy to reverse the order which helped Mercedes... or would it have happened regardless?
The Mercedes help came in the form of a VSC. They "made" Seb give the position back by giving Leclerc the undercut on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Without the VSC or Vettels car failure, it most likely would have remained a Ferrari 1-2 finish.
I don't see the point of the such agreement. Without the agreement, chances are Vettel would slipstream into the lead anyway. That is, if they did not crash into each other in the process. There was some sort of compensation going on. Maybe for the mistake the team made in misjudging the power of the undercut at Singapore. Whatever the case, it looked very ugly business. In the end they ended up third and one car out of the race. Karma !Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
There were better candidates obviously. Albon from last to fifth, Hamilton doing a great race making the Ferrari wary all the way and being there to punish Ferrari when they faltered. Sainz for such a fantastic drive. Bottas for soaking up all that pressure from Leclerc in a faster car. It was a great race in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
The fight between Bottas and Leclerc was a little bit more than just keeping Leclerc behind to allow Hamilton to win. It was a battle for the 2nd place in the driver title. Bottas has stretch it out to 34 points lead to Leclerc and Leclerc has taken 3rd place from Verstapenn.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
It was a completely unnecessary agreement to begin with as Hamilton was on the mediums and was never going to pass leclerc at the race start, And in all likelihood was going to get passed by Vettel at the start.
Then it would have been up to leclerc to decide where he wants to place his car or who to defend from. It was really ridiculous to try and dictate the race order from a race start. Maybe leclerc didn't get that good of a start while vettel got an incredible start. so should vettel be punished for that? Even worse, Leclerc could not close the gap to vettel at any point, even with drs but chose to moan about it over the radio. Vettel was correct in his assessment and even left the option open if leclerc got close to him, but he didn't.
Ferrari made things even worse by leaving vettel out too long and screwing things up for both completely. It was a farcical situation that could have been completely avoided. I'm with vettel on this one.
I didn't enjoy Leclerc whining like a baby for what would have been the actual racing outcome and he knows it. He carried on as if he could have kept the tow to himself and prevent Vettel or Hamilton from using it. The agreement would seem that he should not give the tow to Hamilton but to Vettel to allow Vettel to leapfrog Hamilton into 2nd place. But Leclerc had such a poor start compared to Vettel such that it allowed Vettel to Pass him. That is racing and the team should not have interfered.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Somehow Leclerc and Ferrari expect Vettel to play the role of Kimi, which was never going to happen. I think Ferrari have a gunpowder keg with its wick lit at the moment. There is likely to be some inter-driver friction like Hamilton vs Rosberg brewing at Ferrari.
I agree. I don’t like these arrangements either. Regardless, The agreement still needs to be held ip by both sides if they do make one. This sort of nonsense is why I am not a Ferrari fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I said it at the time, and I'll repeat it now; a position change at lap 10 would be shambolic! Then the undercut scenario was just plain retarded! That safety car was pure karma!
Another interesting race...
Great drive from Albon - definitely should be driver of the day.
And another good showing from McLaren; good to see them continuing their road back to the front. Hopefully before long we can talk about the "top 4 teams" and not just the "top 3 teams". Will be good to see more driver fighting for the lead. Great performance from Norris again today, hanging on with ratty tires after getting screwed by the safety car.
Ferrari really need to sort themselves out. I don't think there's anything really wrong with their strategy calls; they've done pretty well over the last couple of races on just getting the best results for the team. But they really do need to communicate expectations to their drivers much better. What they did in Singapore was obviously the right thing for the team, getting them a 1-2 instead of a 1-3, and the same thing happened here with a clearly planned set-piece in the long drag to T1. But they really need to just tell their drivers what the score is: they're driving for the team, the objective is for both of them to secure the most points for the team, and any considerations about "fairness" between drivers are secondary. I feel for Charles in the last 2 races, but the upset and tension could have been avoided with some more candid communication up front as to what the deal is.
Maybe so, but all parties must play their role efficiently. On this occasion, Leclerc had a poor start compared to Vettel and sort of expected Vettel not to overtake him which is unrealistic. In this scennario, Vettel has no oligation to Leclerc. That is how everyone sees it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Ya' think?? The members who go back far enough know what a big Ferrari honk I used to be, however I lost respect for their "organization", or maybe "gang" would be a better term. Talk about trying to micro-manage a race, this was absurd. I like McLerc but the team is turning him into a monster, and I don't mean in a good way. Him and Seb are probably both ready for the psychiatrists couch. I will give Ferrari one break. It has been a long time since they have had to manage races from the front. Obviously they are a little rusty! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I guess the best thing to do is just put it behind them after this strong dose of reality... I tell ya''awl boyz I'm about ready to have this removed :dozey:
https://i.imgur.com/aBmAP6U.jpg
I'm not so sure about the part I emboldened. The first stint Ferrari were probably on tire conservation mode, and may well have underestimated Merc's race pace relative to them. In retrospect it was a bad move, and full credit needs to go to Botta' for his defense. But it is true, when it came right down to it Ferrari weren't fast enough in race trim to pull that move off!Quote:
Originally Posted by air'
Said "The Boss" of the first stint:
Quote:
"After that it was just trying to keep up with them, but it was like trying to do qualifying laps every lap trying to keep up with them because they were so fast. It was massive challenge but one I'm really proud of."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...rrari/4550483/
Agreed, I think Sainz also stood out in this race. He seemed to only be limited by the McLaren performance!Quote:
Originally Posted by air'
Both their starts were equal, Ferrari have confirmed this after the race. LeClerc gave the slipstream and that is what cost him the lead. Without the slipstream it is highly unlikely Vettel would have overtaken LeClerc. In the end of the day an agreement is an agreement. If they hadn’t discussed all variables involved then what has been pre-agreed must be kept to regardless of any other unspoken variables. The point here is that there could easily have been other variables that were taken into account. It’s impossible to predict them all therefore if you make such an arrangement allQuote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Parties must keep their end of the bargain regardless of the extenuating unforeseen circumstances which are, at best, subjective.
My point is the slipstream is there regardless of what Leclerc do or don't do. The question was who would have benfittted from the slipstream if there were no agreement. If Leclerc tried to prevent Vettel from using the slipstream, Hamilton would have taken the slipstream for his own advantage. It was an unavoidable weakness of starting from pole at Sochi.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
What l am pissed off with Leclerc and Ferrari about is that, they are trying to negotiate a deal for Leclerc to maintain his position at the front by attempting to prevent Vettel from benefiting from this inherent weakness of pole. They want to use Vettel to ensure that Hamilton did not use the slipstream to leapfrog Leclerc into the lead of the race and use that to win the race considering how fast Mercedes race pace was. But at the same time, trying to ensure that Vettel stays in second place like a good boy that he is.
That is what is not acceptable to pure fans of F1 racing. If this is what to come with Ferrari dominating, then l hope Mercedes find a solution to their shortcoming and beat these f**kers back where they belong.
The open pits under VSC are a joke and a mockery of the sport. VSC was meant to preserve the state of the race for the duration of the yellow flag period. And yet, every time there has been a VSC period, we see cars coming to the pits for a "free" tire change. Of course, this serves the holdouts who don't come into pits until the last possible moment, but it screws up others who pitted earlier. This has to stop.
No it wasn’t, not for Vettel. It could have just as easily been there for Hamilton. And that’s the point. WIFM? What’s in it for me in LeClerc’s shoes? Hamilton had a shite start so even with the slipstream it’s unlikely he would have got the lead. As for Vettel, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You can’t expect your teammate (and team) to help you and screw them over in the process. By refusing to let LeClerc by, he was screwing both team and LeClerc. The agreement was Vettel would let LeClerc past again if he gained first from LeClerc providing him the slipstream. That’s why Vettel came over the radio claiming “I would have got by ANYWAY”. That’s really the key here. He cannot judge that, he cannot be certain of that and it’s irrelevant. The deal wasn’t “I’ll let you by if I get into first provided I judge that I wouldn’t have gotten by without your help anyway”. It was that he would let him by regardless. That’s what wasn’t acceptable to Ferrari and it’s why they pitted LeClerc early to get past Vettel. Vettel had to be put into second place because THAT’S WHAT HE AGREED. Vettel got what he deserved, a race retirement. So did Ferrari but for once I’m thoroughly with Ferrari and the way they handled it, although not happy they had the agreement in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
But that was my point, It didn't matter that Hamilton had a bad start, he was further ahead than Vettel and most likely to get into the slipstream of Leclerc if Vettel was not using the slipstream. The realistic option for the Ferrari team was to ensure a one-two off the start in whichever order it shakes out. So Leclerc can try to not give the slipstream to anyone but that would be unrealistic, in the end one of those two [Hamilton or Vettel] would take the slipstream regardless of what Leclerc wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
So the agreement is daft and l am surprised they expect Vettel a four time champion and one of the hardest racers on the grid to go along with that crap frankly. I think they and Leclerc in particular should be ashamed of themselves. Whinny Leclerc has lost my respect at this race.
I agree it was daft but that’s irrelevant. The agreement was made, Vettel agreed to it and it was up to him to honour that agreement. He didn’t and he got what he deserved for it as did Ferrari for putting the agreement place to begin with. I have zero issues with Charles position on this because he held up his side of the bargain. I can’t really see why you would lose respect for him when he was the one Vettel tried to screw over. He was quite entitled to be irate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Agreed and a simplest way to resolve it is that cars not be allowed pit during a VSC periods.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I have no regard for drivers who would not win on merit but prefer to use other drivers to prop themselves up. This is why in my eyes, Hamilton is the greatest world champion in recent times. He would fight anyone on equal footing with no demand for favoritism for being a multiple world champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Of course at some point the team must do what it takes to ensure they win both titles once it has become mathematically clear who is most likely to win the driver's championship. We are not at that position with Ferrari which is why this crappy agreement shinanigan annoys me so much.
Vettel would leave Sochi feeling the Ferrari team are unlikely to give him a fair chance to race in the future. We saw how they messed Raikonen about. In a sense, Vettel is getting a taste what that felt like for Kimi, while he enjoy the No 1 status. Which beggars the question, is Vettel leaving Ferrari, if so where is he heading. There may be something in the gossip that he may be returning to Redbull. Bottas's seat is vcacant in 2021, that may also be a possibility.
Binotto and his pitwall crew have really f*cked this one up good.