WRC drivers' styles and techniques

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Originally Posted by EstWRC

look at the difference between Tänak vs Paddon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7ncOWqfUVs


Tänak has quite a "straight" or nosy? style nowadays IMO, he used to be one of the flamboyant and agressive ones back in the day but not anymore...and i think thats also why he is so consistent now and doesnt have incidents. And this is not based alone on the video above.

Correct me if i am wrong, im not an expert at all at this.

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I'm not expert either so I may be wrong as well, but I think what Tanak improved the most is not that he became "nosy" but that he has now more control over the car. I remember his onboards before dmack, he went like a crazy man in the corner and made more adjustment to the trajectory. Now he put the car in the corner controlling the car from the very beginning of the corner preserving the same speed but in a more safe way. I don't see him less sideways than before. Also he has much more confidence than before and that helps.

In general I think we should not stick into the "nosy"/"rear" rethoric in this thread. Things are more complex than that IMHO.
Ogier has a very different style than Loeb even if we can put both of them in the nosy category. I think there are differences that goes beyond putting the car sideways on corners.

i agree about the part of Tänak having more control of the car but still IMO he is much less sideways than previous years.

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Originally Posted by AL14

Ogier has a very different style than Loeb

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In which ways?

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

In which ways?

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As I said I'm not expert so I am not able to argue this without taking the risk to say stupid things. Anyway I can see the different style, I think we all can and we all agree they are have differences.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

In which ways?

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https://youtu.be/0LUPCTivqw4

Back in 2013 when we could compare them, ogier was nowhere near as tidy and nose first as loeb.
But of course, that was a long time ago. I think ogiers driving style is closer to loebs now than it was then.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

In which ways?

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I'd say the biggest difference on Loeb's style compared to actually anyone was the huge control in brakings.
Which means he can be on full throttle earlier than the rest and with such control he didn't crash very often
since the rear of the car wasn't sideways.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

https://youtu.be/0LUPCTivqw4

Back in 2013 when we could compare them, ogier was nowhere near as tidy and nose first as loeb.
But of course, that was a long time ago. I think ogiers driving style is closer to loebs now than it was then.

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Great video.
Loeb entering the corner with his very controlled breaking, getting the front tyres straight in a four wheel slide, getting to full throttle very early and no oversteering after that.
Ogier entering with wider line, lotsa understeer at first, then to full throttle and oversteering after that.
If he looses time, it's in the acceleration after the corner.

Edit: even a better video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oywcszBoftQ

there is a video from sardinia that shows in a great way the difference between the two sebs.it is from a left fast downhill corner. it is from different years.Ogier drives polo and loeb ds3.I cant find it right now but i am sure it has been posted to this forum.

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Originally Posted by Mise

Edit: even a better video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oywcszBoftQ

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Most interesting imho: 8 people crossing the road to get further view on loeb, only 2 crossing for ogier :)

Loeb steers the car with the breaks and throttle. Always amazing to watch him. Hard on the breaks into a corner with full control of the car...

found Mäkinen saying this about Ott

Finn Mäkinen can see plenty of similarities between himself and his lead driver. The 54-year-old explained: “We have a very, very similar style when we drive. When I was competing, my style was to brake early and then drive the car through the corner; Ott is very early on throttle as well and that’s why he controls the car so nicely and is able to keep it balanced. He drives the car from the rear and never seems to really struggle with it. It helps that the style is similar for Ott and me, when he talks through what he wants from the car, I can understand and help him get it.”

source https://www.redbullcontentpool.com/i...inkId=55762952

Also during Germany Mikkelsen talked about changing his braking technique. Normally he would brake into the apex of the corner, but he tried to learn to brake before the corner, as it suits the Hyundai better.

Mikkelsen also said he needs to be more aggressive on the steering wheel like his teammates, where the C3 WRC was more sensitive and moved around more.

Remember Östberg admitted to changing his style when he drove the DS3, rather than transforming the DS3 to his liking.

Mikkelsen needs the time to adapt this year, because it shows. I think Hyundai sees that as well, but next year they will probably be more strict.

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Originally Posted by EstWRC

found Mäkinen saying this about Ott

Finn Mäkinen can see plenty of similarities between himself and his lead driver. The 54-year-old explained: “We have a very, very similar style when we drive. When I was competing, my style was to brake early and then drive the car through the corner; Ott is very early on throttle as well and that’s why he controls the car so nicely and is able to keep it balanced. He drives the car from the rear and never seems to really struggle with it. It helps that the style is similar for Ott and me, when he talks through what he wants from the car, I can understand and help him get it.”

source https://www.redbullcontentpool.com/i...inkId=55762952

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Interesting he steers with the rear like Paddon and Mikelson.
Still amazes me manufactures don't hire like driving style driver.
Classic point,
Hyundai - Neuville/Sordo vs Paddon/Mikelson,
Ford - Evans/Ogier v Suninen
Citreon - Loeb/Breen V Ostberg/Meeke ?? not sure on this
Toyota - All similarish

I think results from the drivers this year goes to show how necessary a car is to be built around a driver, and how important a team philosophy of how a car should be setup needs to match that of the driver

Mikelson is going through exactly what Paddon went through in the last 1.5 years since the new Gen cars.
Tanak is an example of how a certain driving style is not necessary, only a well balanced car that gives a driver confidence IMO.

Another thing Latvala said during Finland is that his more sideways style is slower than Tänak’s, and it’s impossible to change driving style with the setup he had.

Seriously, it took 15 years for him to realize that sideways is slower?

IIRC he commented Tänak's car settings. That he can't drive with Tänak's settings, because these make car very nervous and impossible to drive for him (car is all over the road).

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Originally Posted by arx

IIRC he commented Tänak's car settings. That he can't drive with Tänak's settings, because these make car very nervous and impossible to drive for him (car is all over the road).

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I tried to dig up the interview which I refered to. Well, here's one, with my translation:

https://www.sportinmaailma.fi/latval...-ihan-karkeen/

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Ott drives with a little different setup. I can't drive with a car like that. It's quite different to my car. I can't drive that kind [of car]. Maybe that's the magic. It works better if you can drive that. The difference is that they can keep the car more straight on fast sections. With me it turns too much sideways. I don't have enough trust to go through these fast bends with a straight car. I turn too much sideways. That's where it must come from.

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I just leave this here:
https://twitter.com/Kaljois/status/1026955365248917511

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Originally Posted by Toyoda

I think results from the drivers this year goes to show how necessary a car is to be built around a driver, and how important a team philosophy of how a car should be setup needs to match that of the driver

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You mean the fiesta that ogier jumped in and won straight away? Or the toyota that latvala developed and is now driven a lot faster by tanak?

Is the last years showed anything than it's the opposite of what you claim. The best drivers can be fast in almost every car.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

You mean the fiesta that ogier jumped in and won straight away? Or the toyota that latvala developed and is now driven a lot faster by tanak?

Is the last years showed anything than it's the opposite of what you claim. The best drivers can be fast in almost every car.

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Ogier wasn't really fast in the Fiesta for most og 2017. Monte is a bit of lottery and runs around his hometown. He put Fiesta in the ditch early due to the car not reacting as he expected under braking (his own words) then won cause Neuville crashed. His first win with good speed was in Portugal 5 months later and after that he didnt get stage win for another 3 months.

Tanak showed rally winning speed first on 4th rally (road position in Sweden and technical in Mexico didn't help off course).

can some finnish members make a better translation of this ? Mäkinen and Latvala describing Tänaks driving but the translation is so funny at times

The reason for this is the speed of the Estonian driving style offered today. He drives softer than the others. According to Tommi Mäkinen, Tänak has adapted and well understood how new cars behave. He has worked hard on it.

- Ott's fine with you in the car. He has enough understanding and experience of how a car likes to go the hardest, Mäkinen says.

According to Latvala, Tänak was able to keep the car straight in the bends and was therefore faster. Now Latvala has started to copy a bit of Today's driving style. At the dawn of this year's World Cup in Finland, Latvala says Today's reason for success is more than just a modern driving style.

- Ott also has a very good braking effect, ie he has soft brakes. That's where he has been able to get the most out of his new cars, Latvala describes to Yle Sports.

- You also dare to take the gas at the bottom of the straight sections. It is said a lot that a driver is strong in some area. But Ott is strong in every aspect.


original link https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-10902808

I have noticed on onboards that Latvala drives with sharp inputs throwing the car around all the time. Tänak doesn't do that or at least I haven't noticed that.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

I have noticed on onboards that Latvala drives with sharp inputs throwing the car around all the time. Tänak doesn't do that or at least I haven't noticed that.

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Id say Tanak uses sharp, but very precise inputs just to position the car without making it unstable.

Suninen tells on twitch:

- Ogier uses many different brake pressures. This reduces tyre wear when braking lightly on fast corners.
- Ogier sets the car into the output angle on the input and can instantly go onto the throttle, whereas other drivers often go on and off the throttle
- Tänak has copied these techniques from Ogier

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Suninen tells on twitch:

- Ogier uses many different brake pressures. This reduces tyre wear when braking lightly on fast corners.
- Ogier sets the car into the output angle on the input and can instantly go onto the throttle, whereas other drivers often go on and off the throttle
- Tänak has copied these techniques from Ogier

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Yet.. after some time Ogier wanted to test after Tänak to benefit from his setups..

and Suninen is moaning/trying to get better thru twitch..

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Originally Posted by TypeR

and Suninen is moaning/trying to get better thru twitch..

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LOL....Kristian Sohlberg is doing a series of interviews of Finnish rallying people. He also interviewed Lappi.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

- Ogier sets the car into the output angle on the input and can instantly go onto the throttle, whereas other drivers often go on and off the throttle

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I'd say that this is generally one of the very basic things - to enter the cornes so that you can accelerate straigt out earliest possible, i.e. like we say here slow-in, fast-out. Isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

I'd say that this is generally one of the very basic things - to enter the cornes so that you can accelerate straigt out earliest possible, i.e. like we say here slow-in, fast-out. Isn't it?

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Basic but hard to do especially under pressure. I know from driving games that its so tempting to drive fast on the straight and brake as late possible. But slow in-fast out is much better and feels good when mastered, getting on the power much earlier.

Following.

What Suninen said was that when comparing datalogs between different drivers, most get on the throttle and then adjust to grip by pushing more or lifting off. What Ogier does better is that he is very good at getting on the throttle just right in terms of time and amount. No hesitation. As a result he tends to get to the full throttle sooner than drivers that adjust more to find the right amount.

Another thing that he brought up where Ogier is very good is braking. Instead of braking as quickly as possible he does it very differently in different situations. Most times not braking 100% which saves tires and gives some room for correction if the braking point was misjudged. Teemu said that this has been something he had to and has to work on coming from circuit racer background where short, sharp braking periods are the norm. He also said that Tänak perfected this as well while he was at M-Sport with Ogier.

In general he was very complimentary of Ogier both as a competitor and as a team mate.

I feel like by the time someone gets into a wrc car, he should know and have mastered all those things.

Brake gentle, turn in late and slow in and exit quick. That seems like something one should learn driving an rc4 car.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

I feel like by the time someone gets into a wrc car, he should know and have mastered all those things.

Brake gentle, turn in late and slow in and exit quick. That seems like something one should learn driving an rc4 car.

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That's something kids know playing Dirt Games :laugh::laugh:

It's relatively easier on circuit or on PC but not in real rallying. The road changes during the race and it's somewhat different for every car and always different than in the recce. The ideal line often changes too with the conditions and with the mess those coming in front of you did there. The most important is that you don't do hundreds of laps on the same road.

Also rally cars can't be set as circuit cars because they have to work in much wider range of conditions. That is especially true for the previous generation of WRC cars or for R5 and S2000. Such cars without central differential can never be set in ideal way.

IMHO it's very difficult to get close to the ideal way of driving in actual rallying conditions on the real stage.

I would assume that Suninen's comments were based on comparison datalogs from drivers who have recently driven the M-Sport Fiesta WRC. Surely all of them understand the concepts discussed here quite well. However, the datalogs still show differences in the execution of those concepts between the drivers and that may be what separates excellent drivers from champions. Every excellent driver who wants to be a champion definitely should be interested in knowing where the difference lies.

Kalle was also interviewed by Kristian Sohlberg and he also mentioned the pedalwork being the superior thing in Ogier's driving technique. He can brake more lightly which saves tyres especially on hot rallies, and he doesn't have to go on and off the throttle and brake. Sohlberg also used Latvala as an example, being always very heavy on the brakes and throttle, which is why he always lost the tyres so quickly.

Kalle also says he's usually quick to learn and adapt his driving style based on the data. For example in Arctic Rally tests he was told that Seb and Elfyn brake lighter than he, so the next time he tested he braked similarly.

Kristian Sohlberg analyzes Esapekka Lappi's style based on the latest Yaris test video. He notices that Lappi brakes the car while going into the corner (trailbraking), while Ogier, Tänak, Evans, Rovanperä typically brake before the corner, then roll through the corner and apply throttle as early as possible. He also mentions the story from Lappi's Citroen years how it took half a year for him to find front diff ramp that worked for his style. Sohlberg wondered if Lappi would find a suitable diff from Toyota now that the team has drivers who have a different style.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Kristian Sohlberg analyzes Esapekka Lappi's style based on the latest Yaris test video. He notices that Lappi brakes the car while going into the corner (tailbraking)

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It is called trail-braking.

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Originally Posted by Rally Hokkaido

It is called trail-braking.

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Of course, small typo there :)

One historical thing that has been brought up many times in Tomi Tuominen's excellent podcast series, is that the Group A Mitsubishi Lancer around 1998-2001 was difficult to drive for most drivers other than Tommi Mäkinen. Mäkinen himself reportedly said "the car needs to be taken to its limits" and left-foot braking didn't work with it. So basically very aggressive movements on the wheel and Scandinavian flicks were needed, quite different to modern driving styles.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

One historical thing that has been brought up many times in Tomi Tuominen's excellent podcast series, is that the Group A Mitsubishi Lancer around 1998-2001 was difficult to drive for most drivers other than Tommi Mäkinen. Mäkinen himself reportedly said "the car needs to be taken to its limits" and left-foot braking didn't work with it. So basically very aggressive movements on the wheel and Scandinavian flicks were needed, quite different to modern driving styles.

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Was there not something about the diff set up that made them tricky? Others will remember better than me I’m sure…