If You aren't sure and hadn't been there, why bother us with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
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If You aren't sure and hadn't been there, why bother us with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
So you can make such things only from 3rd round, not 2nd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
In Jordan 2010 Loeb was to sweep the road on the last day as the rally leader, but Citroen made Ogier (3rd at the time, behind Latvala) check early to sweep road for Loeb. And it was just 3rd round of the championship.
Not correct, look here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
http://rallysweden.com/wp-content/up...sification.pdf
That overall is wrong. If Evans had 4min20sec penalty, how can he only be 5.27 behind Neuville? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
I am sure of what I saw on the GPS map on WRC+, it showed Ogier hiding behind a farmhouse on a small sideroad.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Do I (or others) really have to go through every single possible example and say what we deem ok or not ok? Or what do you really mean with that post?Quote:
Originally Posted by moto99
No, I did not find that to be ok either. Both happened in a point in the championship were both drivers still have a shot at the title.
But then I again, I wrote "end of the season" and "start of the year". I am sure you understood that the 3rd rally of the year are not a part of the "end of the season".
Yes, saw it now. Still strange, as Evans had only 10 seconds longer punishment and lost ~16 to him on PS. The gap before was ~55 seconds.
Probably need to look more, as i`m definitely wrong.:D
"I saw a car driving normally on the road in front of me, suddenly it jumped into a ditch and continued in the farm field, and I thought - ahh there is another one with GPS navigation"Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
I thought it was bizzare to hear that Ogier hadn't shown up for the stage to have a better shot at the PS, but as much as I wanted to find something to criticize about it I realized it was silly to do so. He did what he needed to do to maximise his points haul for the horrendous rally he had, and it's not like he didn't get a penalty for it. Sure enough Evans cancelled out the penalty but that's exactly what he was expected to do as second fiddle to the world champion.
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some info we didnt know
https://rallysportmag.com/desperate-...le-wrc-points/
Haha! Love it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Sure, but I'm little curious anyway how did You saw a farm house on the wrc+ map?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
It obviously isn't 'entirely within the rules' if he is penalised 4 minutes for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
It shows that the penalty isn't enough relative to powerstage points to prevent people breaking the rules though.
Google maps is a good help when you wonder what the **** is that road? Where does it lead? What's on it? I was hoping it was some sort of village party-place! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Thanks, useful info. I'm like an aborigine in computers and technology and so. Don't ask me about Mathematics and Physics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
at second paragraph,Neuvilles opinion about Ogiers case.
"It's nice to follow Loeb and Ogier on the list of non-Scandinavian winners here, it's a win like any other because they're all important, the start of the season is way better than last season. what follows is a little more complicated, we already know that we are going to suffer from the sweeping in Mexico, to go looking for a podium or even the top 5 will be difficult.On the regular, we can do 7th or 8th I think. There is some asphalt during some special stages, I hope to be competitive there, we will make sure to leave Mexico with a small lead in the championship to open the road to the Tour de Corse, "Neuville detailed at the microphone. our colleague Olivier Gaspard, special correspondent of RTBF in Sweden.
Sébastien Ogier, one of Neuville's competitors for the league title, took advantage of a loophole in the rules to claim 'more points than expected'. "The rules exist to be exploited to the maximum, it proves that all the points will be important in the final count.There were three to play the title last year.We are 5 or 6 drivers this season, each point will count. the same if it's necessary, "concluded our countryman on the subject.
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/ra...era?id=9843583
Gilsoul has a bit different view
Although he was a bit mocked Sebastien Ogier tweeting that he was very happy, he took the broom in Mexico, Nicolas Gilsoul began by defending him on his bad mood of the weekend.
"His frustration is legitimate," says teammate Thierry Neuville. "The weather conditions did not work in his favor. But above all it is not normal that we pass a historic rally between the two passages of the WRC. They use other trajectories and this increases the difficulty for those who open. I understand they are doing this for a cost issue, but at this level of the world, with points and a title at stake, this should not be allowed. "
The Liege also explained exactly what happened with Seb Ogier during the last stage. "As in life or business, there are rules and everyone uses them in his own way, although in some cases it can convey a more or less interesting image. That Sebastien has chosen to point 25 minutes late, being at the limit of the out of race, to benefit from a better starting position is one thing. It is acceptable. But what disturbs me a bit is that the organizers did not send him to the place where he should have. Since everything was already organized for TV, they made him wait and leave after us when he should have started three or four cars in front of logically. The promoters have all the rights today and so they have clearly increased their advantage. This is not normal and it must be reviewed in the future because otherwise it is royal casino. There is no rule for that. It is left to their free appreciation. In Mexico if they want, they can let two or three local first if they wish because there is not much WRC. But that's not normal. We are in the World Championship and we need a strict and equivalent rule for everyone everywhere. "
Nicolas is absolutely right. This is a point to modify and settle as soon as possible by Yves Matton, the new FIA rally manager.
http://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/n...medium=twitter
That's a deal, but only if you don't ask me about it either! When we started to have letters in Maths I fell off! ^^,Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Yup, Ogier have opened a can of worms now.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Interesting to see Mikkelsen mentioning that they talked about it while they were at VW as well, but that VW (Capito) told them a strict no about such things.
Yeah I know, it's hard life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
Some thoughts about starting order. Why we need reverse start order anyway? If I understand correctly it was made, that nobody lose some seconds on purpose, to get better starting position next day? Now, we have witnessed some situation with clever (or unfair) choosing position for starting stage. If fastest driver always being first on road, after regroup for last days results, we would never had this Sweden situation, everyone has to in front for some stages. Of course this work better if it be 3 full days of stages (well, it depends on itinerary, stage lengths and etc.)
Sweden situation was because history cars, but on other rallies, where starting order is crucial, it, kind of, is unfair. Let say we have 4 teams, with 3 drivers, and 8 of them all is on +/- same level, and we have 2 specialists, so 1 in order will be 10th after 1st day, 10 in order will be 1st, next day we have reverse order, and 10th will start 1st, and leader will start 10th, so his lead will grow again.
So why there isn't anymore, that fastest driver of rally is always 1st on read?
Remember the late 90's when drivers were stopping at the ends of last stages to drop back some positions for better road position? That's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
There would be no point to push for win on Friday when all of that would be destroyed on Saturday by opening the road.
Net really remember that, but I know what you mean. Maybe points after each day like ERC would be solution?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
When Loeb ran like a coward from Ogier in 2013, he left a bunch of butthurt fans who now try to discredit Ogier whenever they can.
Memories from Monte 2015 are still alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by moto99
coward and world champion lolQuote:
Originally Posted by moto99
Haha real cowards are VW.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Smart move I'd say. And even if people do think this is underhand, it's daft to point the finger directly at Ogier. Do you really think he'd pull a trick like this without the approval of the team?
Four more points that he probably wouldn't have picked up without the late check in and a bit of damage limitation to what was otherwise a miserable weekend thanks to the running order. Some people don't seem to like it, but it's the mark of a smart driver backed by a smart team. And smart drivers win Championships...
That's actually a perfectly correct view.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
Yes it's against the rules, just that the penalty doesn't outweight the benefits. This comes from the penalty being designed for "normal" points per position, while the powerstage points turn this around.
Therefore FIA will quite likely change the penalties specifically to hurt on powerstage. Ex. later/early timecontrols on Sunday will give you powestage time penalties.
Just about all WRC rallies have either historic or "local" rally doing the stages before, or 80+ cars in the field that change the roads between the passes. It makes a difference on quite many events.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
The specific situation here is the wider/narrower tracks and narrower tires allowed for historic in Sweden. Gilsouls solution of "banning" organizers from having longer entry list (= more money from drivers and more spectators) is way over the top crazy. And if they do this for Sweden only Swedesh organizers will complain that others can do this.
Ogier doesn't need anyone to be discredited, he's self-sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by moto99
well, lets talk again at the end of the season. maybe those 4 points will keep the championship undecided until the final round, which in my opinion will be great as it hasn't happen for many years now... i know ogier is a very arrogant and annoying person to watch, but you can't blame him for being honest and showing his frustration as a true competitor he is.
and to add, mikkelsen smiling and saying "we are fighting like tom and jerry", i'm sorry sunshine but it's not with this kind of fighting spirit that you will become world champion. No offense.
Beyond the indisputable fact that Ogier is a great driver. From the beginning, He has destroyed his image with a despicable attitude of incessantly pushing cynicism with sarcastic remarks. Stunning!
As for the rules, they have been respected but unfortunately used for purposes other than sports in spirit.
As far as I understand, Ogier din't break any rules.
But the fact that he hide behind a house, leaving the main road, doesn't mean that he left the itinerary of the rally?
(I am just asking a question here, I am not trying to imply that he should have been penalised for that).
Hate the game not the player. Ogier hasn't broken anyrules. Everyone needs to untwist their knickers and move on. It makes the season more interesting.
I fully understand Ford's tactics. When I was watching the final stage and realised that the games were about to happen when Ogier didn't appear, it brought a smile to my face. Not because I am a great fan of team orders/road order games as such, but because it is something a bit harsh and clever you kind of want to see these teams doing when trying to gain the tiniest advantage over each other. And like pointed out already, it was very mild compared to some of the games that have happened in the past in WRC. I was reminded of Rautenbach waiting 13 minutes on the side of the road in 2009 Poland for Loeb to gain one extra Championship point. But unlike with Loeb, these team games also go well with the image of Ogier which some like and some don't, I like it. It would be more boring if he always behaved himself. Grönholm said in some interview a couple of years ago Loeb was actually a really nice guy, but he didn't have anything good at all to say about Ogier as a person. But for me as a viewer it just creates that extra something buzz if a World Champion behaves a bit cocky or is a bit rough on the edges. I don't mind it, like I don't mind well-behaving Champions either for that matter. They might have won all the Championships for the past 14 years between them (!) but in this regard Loeb and Ogier are completely different characters and I think it's just great.
Second rally of the season is a bit early for these games, but I think Ford, like I do, sees Ogier as their only realistic chance for the World Championship already at this point of the year. At least I would be very surprised to see Evans mounting a serious Championship challenge this year. There is simply nothing yet that would suggest Elfyn being able to perform on a consistently high level over a whole season. So essentially, he is number 2 to Ogier at the moment. If such an event occured early this season already where Evans leads on the final day and Ogier is second, I wouldn't be surprised if Ford tells Evans to let Ogier by. I would actually be more surprised if they wouldn't do that. If we look in the past, M-Sport has potentially thrown drivers titles away by not starting to play these games early enough in the season. Ford let Latvala win ahead of Hirvonen in Sardinia 2009, Hirvonen lost the title to Loeb by one point at the end of the year. And by Sardinia 2009 Latvala was well out of Championship contention, having had a disastrous start for that season. Citroen's own games to favour Loeb and Latvala himself further helped Loeb's Championship cause in Poland. Also in 2007 Ford let Hirvonen win ahead of Grönholm in Norway, although Hirvonen was quite a clear number 2 driver for that season and Grönholm ended up having a tight Championship battle with Loeb. Maybe Malcolm doesn't want a repeat of these years.
Anyway, the main problem here is the regulations which make these games possible and the power stage concept itself. I have never been a fan of the power stage, although I understand the added excitement it can bring to some events to see drivers pushing maximum attack on the final stage, which wouldn't happen in some situations. But on some other events it's completely unnecessary. Also in modern WRC you probably get more final stages in a calendar year with tight fights for a position than not. All in all it just feels artificial to me to award five points for winning a one stage time attack. It goes against the concept of rallying to drive fast but consistently over a long distance. Anyone can do one short stage fast and just see if they are lucky enough to make it to the end without making any mistakes. But to do 20-30 stages consistently fast without any mistakes is a much more interesting challenge and what the sport is about. Even Formula 1 has never done anything as "plastic" yet in terms of handing out World Championship points. We are yet to see points being awarded for the fastest final lap of the race, but maybe Liberty Media is already working on it if they have been following WRC in the past few years.
I say, reduce Power Stage points back to 3-2-1 now VW is gone.
Well, AnttiK7, that's a nice change!
I agree with what you said here 100%!
A FONDO, I also agree with what you said! Or, even better, I say let's scrap the Power stage points altogether!
It was both. Of course he gained an advantage, but not good for the sport.
Anyone remember, when Sainz stopped just before finish in Australia to get a better startposition (199?).he penalised for unsportmanship behaviour or similar. This could be applied now.
But he got away with it. I think it was stupid, because him being so much fasterthan anyone else in VW days was the reason the rule was changed
Sainz was excluded because he stopped between the yellow and red markers at the time control at the end of the stage. Other drivers slowed but not stopped and didn't get penalized. But slowing down to get a better road position was common in those days and imo just as wrong from what Ogier did if not worse. New rules fixed that behavior, and I think they need to have a better think about PS rules too. Less points or penalties for starting out of order to actual PS time would work. As it stands it's fair game.Quote:
Originally Posted by COD
Am now thinking back to one very dusty event, final stage and we had a handful of seconds over the car in front.
We shuffle forwards, the codriver ahead gets out to talk to the marshal handling time cards - unusual as you normally stay strapped in the car, and ooooph she stumbles and falls to the ground holding a twisted ankle.
Complaining of feeling faint she unzips her overalls to “get some fresh air”.
After a couple of minutes she thanks all the marshals who have been VERY attentive to this half nekkid very attractive codriver, she zips herself back up, winks back at us, hops back in the car and gets their start time - and of course, all that dust has now settled. Off they set making the most of a now clear stage.
Now, I’m not saying Nicolas Gilsoul needs to flaunt his manliness in Mexico, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get an advantage.
I agree with much you say but in terms of being early for such games, in championships it is always in my mind that every point scored, whether in Round 1 or the final one is worth the same at the end of the year. Those 4 points could easily be the difference between winning the championship or not. I have much admiration for M-Sport for working out that this was possible in order to give their no 1 driver the best chance of points. Fast driving can win rallies but also smart thinking can win titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiK7
The male version of that move that I have witnessed in the UK is a nav who kept a plastic box in the car which he filled with mashed up bread and baked beans. As he pulled up to the control he would stuff a load in his mouth ready to feign a bout of nausea out the car door, get out for some fresh air, then back in ready for the stage with a nice dust free gap!Quote:
Originally Posted by TMorel
Regarding the advantage Ogier gained, it's nothing anybody anywhere over 10th place could do to gain points effectively, because you'd lose the points from any other position with smaller gaps ahead and behind. However, it does raise another issue: the tenth placed driver now has a nearly sure way to score more points than 9th or 8th every single time on the PS. Maybe there can't be a rule preventing this that wouldn't exclude the bottom half of point scorers from PS points but it does raise an issue.
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