How good is Sebastien Loeb?

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27th January 2018, 18:59
seb_sh

Quote:

Originally Posted by L555MAT

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

they weren't that "vintage" and Loeb was in his first full season, I doubt anyone expected him to beat them at the time.
27th January 2018, 19:00
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by L555MAT

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

Mcrae was 35, so not beyond his prime, at 35 loeb was winning titles with ease...

Sainz is certainly one of the sports greats but far away from even remotely to be considered as the best ever, lets not forget than during his last years
telefonica was the only reason he had a seat and not his skills.
27th January 2018, 20:11
ESTR

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.
27th January 2018, 20:48
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESTR

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.

yes but what dakar has to do with the greatest of all times in the WRC...

for example Loeb has the absolute record in pikes peak as well which i think its far bigger achievement than winning a marathon rally where navigation and even luck has much bigger influence on the final result than rally speed. Gronholm went there as well as WRX and got his ass kicked by burger boys.

who else has wins and records in so many disiplines other than Loeb in order to discredit him ?
27th January 2018, 20:59
focus206

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESTR

Well Sainz win dakar two times, Loeb didn't manage to do that one time and probably never will after Peugeot drop. And Sainz is one old dude now and that race is for my opinion hardest than WTCC, Rallycross combined.

Sainz has 2 Dakar victories in how many attempts? Like 12? Really cannot compare that.
28th January 2018, 00:53
AL14

Quote:

Originally Posted by L555MAT

Lets be fair Mcrae and Sainz were both well past their primes at this point. Mcrae in his prime was arguable the fastest driver ever in the WRC (not nessecarily the best). Sainz is definately a contender for the GOAT imho.

The fact is that while at the end of their career those guys were clearly beaten by Loeb, no one did the same with Loeb himself, not even Ogier who is the only one capable to keep the comparison in my opinion.
28th January 2018, 14:57
Mirek

Why is this topic coming back over and over again? Why do people have a need to downplay achievements of the best?
28th January 2018, 15:22
Sulland

Loeb was the best of his time. End of story.

One of the things he was best at, was to study the route in advance and choose a few to do max attack on. He often suddenly built a big lead with that tactic.
Ogier does some of the same.

Some other important of the whys are already listed:

- he beat ALL of his team-mates
- he beat the following champions: McRae (same car), Sainz (same car), Makinen, Solberg (except for 2003), Gronholm - it's true some of them were at the end or final part of their careers but in total they had 10 drivers titles between them
- he beat Hirvonen (same car), Latvala, Ogier (same car - too bad we didn't get more battles when Ogier went VW) all of who would have been champions at least once during the time Loeb was competing if he wasn't there
- he is recognized as a good car developer
- he has a very good safety record
- he was able to adjust his speed very well according to conditions
- he won with 3 car generations with different technical regulations in very different conditions in all types of rallies.

lets see this year how he will tacle the C3. But I think he is tough to do this. If he fails, people will use that against him.
29th January 2018, 13:51
Coach 2

Loeb has won the most rally of all and that makes him great, but it's another thing he also has the most of, and that's what makes him the greatest in my eyes.

What is that?
29th January 2018, 15:52
Marcco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach 2

Loeb has won the most rally of all and that makes him great, but it's another thing he also has the most of, and that's what makes him the greatest in my eyes.

What is that?

Consistency?
29th January 2018, 16:26
MikeD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joestlaachmkr

In my opinion Loeb is an amazing Rally driver, But he is also overwhelmingly overrated. If you look at the competition he had during 2004-2012 in the WRC it was rather weak overall with only Gronhom, Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Hirvonen and Latvala as true challengers to his titles. And during this period was there few manufactures in the WRC and Citroen was far ahead of any other manufactures during this period of time. Do you think Loeb would have been a 9 time WRC champ if he had competed from 1992-2003 instead? And if we look at Loeb´s performances in the WTCC and the WRX Loeb has not been overly impressive, And it seems like he struggles to race in traffic. Do you think its fair of me to say that Loeb is overrated as a driver?

Oh no, not again. Not another idiot who thinks he can sit in his arm chair and call a 9 time champion over rated. Loeb made everybody else look mediocre on his way to 78 wins and a total of 116 podiums. He was that good. Consistant and fast and with very few DNF's to his name. So learn a bit about the rally sport before you stupid stuff like this.
29th January 2018, 17:08
Mr C1412

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.
29th January 2018, 17:58
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mise

2) and Kankkunen. Doesn't take anything away from your arguments, just to get your facts straight.

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac, thus far away in any kind of discussions what concerns Loeb The Great. No other comes close of beating everyone else on his way, mastering all surfaces. Just look at his win ratio. And the competition was there, he just demolished them in a way that everybody thinks the opposition was weak. It wasn't. Without him you would praise Grönholm as the best ever. He demolished him. Period.
29th January 2018, 18:04
ESTR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr C1412

He also dominated every championship he competed in prior to joining WRC - including the French Citroen Trophy and the Super 1600 (now JWRC) championship which were both very competitive at the time. No driver got near him on pace alone.

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...
29th January 2018, 19:03
dimviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESTR

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.
29th January 2018, 19:34
focus206

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESTR

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

So... Loeb was not actually that good because he was so much faster than his competition... right, that makes sense. When you defeat so many world champions that people go as far as saying "he had no competition"...
29th January 2018, 19:41
Augury

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimviii

seems you havent got a clue about what he did at JWRC.
He went first time to Catalunya he won
he went first time to Acropolis he won
he went first time to Finland he won
he went first time to Corsica he won
he went first time to Great Britain he won
only at Sanremo he didnt won because he was entered with xsara wrc where he lost the win from Panizzi for 11 sec,while he beat Auriol,Sainz,Gronholm,McRae,Solberg,Rovanpera,Dele cour,Rovanpera,Loix from 5 different works teams.

Loeb is another level from everybody,even from his first steps was something we havent saw,and i doubt we will see again.
Comparisons with Kankunen Makinen etc are laughable.
Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

/thread
29th January 2018, 19:59
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

Kankkunen was utterly crap on tarmac

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.
29th January 2018, 20:05
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

What is it with the wording people tend to use these days? Talking about a four-time World Champ, and some Estonian jerk feels it's correct to use phrase "utterly crap"... o tempora, o mores.

But anyway, going back to the subject... I'm astonished about how silly arguments (for and against Le Maestro) some forum members, who otherwise seem to understand the sport, have used here. Is Loeb the greatest of all time...? Well, could be, and I'd probably vote for him myself as well, but it's not like a no-contest. First of all, when we're comparing Loeb vs. other greats of this great sport, we're comparing guys of different sports. The sport Loeb mastered didn't exist in the 70's and vice versa. And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC... That has to be the most irrelevant statistics there is (on this specific topic).

That all being said, the only way to make any kind of comparision between the greats of different eras, is to compare the achievements within that era. I don't have the time now to specify all the elements that need be taken into consideration for each one, but the conclusion is, that when we're discussing about who's the greatest rally driver there's ever been, it all comes down to four gentlemen (in alphabetical order):

Sebastien Loeb
Juha Kankkunen
Hannu Mikkola
Carlos Sainz

You can make case for each one, depending on what you want to emphasize.

Speaking the truth gets the best name-calling out of you? I won't go as low as you went. I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get. Great driver but utterly crap compared to Loeb, specially on tarmac. Can't stand the truth?

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29th January 2018, 20:11
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get.

Then feel free to share the statistics you're referring to.
29th January 2018, 20:12
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Then feel free to share the statistics you're referring to.

Juwra helps you, feel free to look some 9 wc titles, 72 rally wins etc. Have a look my friend

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29th January 2018, 20:15
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

Juwra helps you, feel free to look some 9 wc titles, 72 rally wins etc. Have a look my friend

Let me just quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

And oh how I feel nauseous everytime someone mentions that Loeb has so and so many wins in WRC
29th January 2018, 20:20
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Let me just quote myself:

I know it hurts

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29th January 2018, 20:28
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

I know it hurts

Nah, it doesn't. I just feel genuinely sorry for people who are unable to justify their opinion. But don't worry, it's still nice you're atleast trying to follow the sport.
29th January 2018, 20:31
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Nah, it doesn't. I just feel genuinely sorry for people who are unable to justify their opinion. But don't worry, it's still nice you're atleast trying to follow the sport.

Okay, I'm being an adult here and step aside. You are right ofcourse.

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29th January 2018, 20:34
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

You are right ofcourse.

I know I am, but thanks anyway.
29th January 2018, 20:38
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

I know I am, but thanks anyway.

Youre welcome! Sleep tight!

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29th January 2018, 22:41
Mr C1412

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESTR

Very competitive you say. He dominated ypu say. Well if no one got near him then there is no competitive championship at all. It's like every rally with WRC2. Usually Skoda fac. drivers are bored of no competitive drivers...

You don’t know much about rallying and are not making much sense at all

He beat drivers in a 1 make series, yet you compare him to Skoda drivers in WRC2.

The JWRC used to have some great drivers and Loeb best them all. He made Nail McShae look pretty average in the same car. I doubt you know who Nial McShae is mind.
30th January 2018, 05:29
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimviii

Another point with very big meaning for me, at least,is that he wasnt a kid with rich father,nor with backing from Jouhki,Even etc.
A young electrician from Alsace that destroyed everybody,with pure speed and consistency at every surface.

I think thats why he's so succesfull.
He actually was one of the few who got there on talent. And thats really rare in rallying.

Unlike lots of other sports like football, where you have tens of thousands of young people trying, and ony the best make it. In rallying there's only a few hundered trying, and even then most of them never get a chance to prove themself because they never find the money.
Its a rich people's sport, and connections and money are more important than raw talent.

I believe that there are a lot of talented people out there, some of them even more talented than loeb or any driver whe have a ever seen. But they dont have a daddy who gives them a group n evo when they are 6, or an family business who pays for a few full seasons of wrc.
So they only start when they already work a few years, which is in their mid 20's. And they work their ass off to barely be able to afford an r2 car, but they can't afford to crash it, they can't maintain it properly and the don't have anyone to guide them. In the meantime some rich kid hires the best car from the best team available, pays for a professional co-pilot and gets driving lessons from a professional driver.

A real cheap - think cheaper then R1 - 1 make cup with professional support and guidance could probably reveal some big talent.
30th January 2018, 06:09
Watson

I can't believe this dumb thread is still going on. The initial question was: Is Loeb overrated? Which of course he is not. Is he the greatest of all time? Not only is that not the question in hand, it is also impossible to answer if we don't all agree on numbers of titles and wins as the appropriate measurment.
30th January 2018, 07:43
janvanvurpa

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

Speaking the truth gets the best name-calling out of you? I won't go as low as you went. I rely on statistics. He was crap compared to Loeb in every aspects you can get. Great driver but utterly crap compared to Loeb, specially on tarmac. Can't stand the truth?

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Cali you are not relying on statstic, you are relying on emotional words...
Patience and consider what I say...
There is a terrible amount of what I call "fan boi based exaggeration"..
Loeb was good...but when the gap after 3+ hours of SS ti,es is 5-15-30 seconds you go and do the statstics, the % difference and I think you will see that 0.3% difference between Loeb and Grönholm is not "CRUSHING!"

Crushing is what Happened to the American "rally God" Ben Klock when even after 4 years he lose 2-5 minutes to the real guys per SS. That is crushing. When after 4 yeats spending 4-5 million a year he gets his SS times beaten by 2 guys in Golfs and 1 in a 940 Volvo in the Swedish class Grupp H...
THAT is crushing
...3% time difference is beating, 0,3% is enough but!!

And everybody talks this absurd way except...except..
serious drivers.

Now come on do some work with the calculator, stop sh!t-talking
30th January 2018, 07:55
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Cali you are not relying on statstic, you are relying on emotional words...
Patience and consider what I say...
There is a terrible amount of what I call "fan boi based exaggeration"..
Loeb was good...but when the gap after 3+ hours of SS ti,es is 5-15-30 seconds you go and do the statstics, the % difference and I think you will see that 0.3% difference between Loeb and Grönholm is not "CRUSHING!"

Crushing is what Happened to the American "rally God" Ben Klock when even after 4 years he lose 2-5 minutes to the real guys per SS. That is crushing. When after 4 yeats spending 4-5 million a year he gets his SS times beaten by 2 guys in Golfs and 1 in a 940 Volvo in the Swedish class Grupp H...
THAT is crushing
...3% time difference is beating, 0,3% is enough but!!

And everybody talks this absurd way except...except..
serious drivers.

Now come on do some work with the calculator, stop sh!t-talking

If we rely on statistics, loeb has crushed everyone.

Oh, and remember that time loeb crashed in monte, got a 5 minutes penalty and still finished only a minute behind gronholm? That is crushing, even without statistics.
30th January 2018, 08:16
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watson

Is he the greatest of all time? Not only is that not the question in hand, it is also impossible to answer if we don't all agree on numbers of titles and wins as the appropriate measurment.

But how could we agree on that? What is that statistics, which we could use for comparing the greats of different eras (number vs. number)? My point is, and as I wrote earlier, I'd also vote for Loeb, but it's defintely up for discussion, not a no-contest.
30th January 2018, 08:18
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by denkimi

If we rely on statistics, loeb has crushed everyone.

Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.
30th January 2018, 08:22
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.

http://www.juwra.com/driver_statistics_win_ratio.html

You really should look at this site, made by a finn. Great work done with this site. Have a look before you post some nonsense again.
30th January 2018, 08:26
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

Yeah, and once the WRC calendar has 100 rallies in a season and one guy happens to win 90 of them, he's crushed Loeb. Genius.

As cali said. Look at the victory numbers in comparison with the number of starts. The conclusion stays the same, statistically loeb has crushed every one.
30th January 2018, 08:26
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

http://www.juwra.com/driver_statistics_win_ratio.html

You really should look at this site, made by a finn. Great work done with this site. Have a look before you post some nonsense again.

Uuuh... "nonsense" :p
30th January 2018, 08:35
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by denkimi

As cali said. Look at the victory numbers in comparison with the number of starts. The conclusion stays the same, statistically loeb has crushed every one.

I can look at that number, no problem. Now I only need to know what does it tell. How do I use that number if I want to compare Loeb to Hannu Mikkola or Walter Röhrl for example?

In a nutshell: yes, I do agree that Loeb is the best ever, but everyone who's justifying that argument by pointing to some figures which aren't comparable between the participants, has no clue about comparing basically anything.
30th January 2018, 08:46
denkimi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez Andruet

I can look at that number, no problem. Now I only need to know what does it tell. How do I use that number if I want to compare Loeb to Hannu Mikkola or Walter Röhrl for example?

In a nutshell: yes, I do agree that Loeb is the best ever, but everyone who's justifying that argument by pointing to some figures which aren't comparable between the participants, has no clue about comparing basically anything.

It only tells that loeb is statistically the best.
I'm not saying that makes him te best of all time, since statistics don't show how much off it is due to the car, lack of opponents or other factors.
But janvanpuura claimed that the statistics don't show that loeb crushed gronholm, but they clearly do.
30th January 2018, 08:55
Allez Andruet

Quote:

Originally Posted by denkimi

It only tells that loeb is statistically the best.

No. Again - in this sport there's no such statistics which is comparable between the drivers of different eras, thus the claim of being "statistically the best" is irrelevant.

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