The question is one of intent. Causing a collision is a provision in the rules but deliberately causing a collision?Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
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The question is one of intent. Causing a collision is a provision in the rules but deliberately causing a collision?Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
An admission that it was "deliberate , but instinctual" once resulted in a dropping of points from a whole season .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I find it interesting that even though we've had a number of people wondering if it was actually intentional or whether it was just a bounce of the elbow on the wheel as he began his gesticulating at Hamilton , we've not heard anything about the second contact at all from Vettel .
It seems to make sense that he simply screwed up , and seems an easy way out of this sticky mess , even if it isn't really true .
Coming along side him and waving a WTF at him looked more like what he was up to , and would have been justified , even if only in Seb's head .
A lot of other drivers would have done the same .
But , all seem agreed that the hit wasn't on .
So , why not just say he screwed up while in a tizzy , which is what it looked like , rather than have the question of intent floating out there ?
It makes him seem guilty as charged .
Should he get a one race ban? He did bang wheels with Lewis and that's unnecessary.
Anything harsher than that is drunkin' talk.
Wow, l wonder what race you were watching. Jonny Herbert tried to make this point but when viewed from the rear to the front, it was very clearly a deliberate action. You could see that he took great care to align to the tyres of Hamilton's car and violently turned into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
What he did not do is unwittingly drift into Hamilton's car, which would have been a gentle drift and impact into Hamilton's tyres. We can undoubtedly rule out mistake due to loss of concentration. We can also undoubtedly state that it was a red mist reaction which was calculated to ensure the action only catches Hamilton's attention without doing damage this his or Hamilton's car.
I have to say, most in the sky F1 were surprisingly too obvious in trying to dumb this down the severity of the incident. If this was a headbutt, which is the equivalent of the action, l suppose they would be saying it was only a light knock. It kind of diminishes the credibility of that team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyL
I think you are quite correct in some respects. I am not sure degree of intent would have much bearing here. Intent was demonstrated by driving up alongside Hamilton. In this circumstances, even an accidental bump due to loss of focus would have been punishable. The real problem here was a clear demonstration of aggression which involved him using his vehicle as a weapon to intimidate another driver. This is what was very serious and the very point that made the stewards decision on the matter very questionable.
I think it could be very damaging for the sport if the FIA appear lenient as it would show nonchalance on the matter.
qft.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodaze
I haven't read all of the replies, but regarding the thread title, I think it depends on if you are a Vettel supporter or not.
I like him (and I like Hamilton too, incidentally), so I think not. Although Vettel's actions were at least a bit close to the mark, all I see here are parallels with that of Michael. All things considered, that doesn't amount to a bad thing, in my opinion.
Sorry, just to add: I think the concern here is more to do with Vettel's attitude than the actual consequences of his action. If he had knocked Hamilton out of the race then it would have been a different matter.
I think a one race suspension would be reasonable and proportionate. I don't think anything more than that would be justified (and something like dropping all points or a season ban would be a disaster for the sport; I really don't think that will happen).
I don't think that the rationale of Jerez '97 really applies here. In that case, we had a championship being decided in the last race of the season, and there needed to be a very strong message that the leader taking out themselves and their only realistic rival in that situation isn't to be tolerated... and I really don't imagine that anybody thinks Vettel was trying to actually crash Hamilton out of the race.
Vettel's intent is probably going to get talked about a lot. If he did deliberately crash into Hamilton, obviously that would be very bad, but I'm not convinced the alternative of "I lost control of the car because I was angry and took my hands off the steering wheel" is so much better.
For the record, I don't think it was intentional for him to actually make contact. But he clearly lost control of his car by being stupid and losing his temper. F1 drivers should be better than that, although I understand there's a lot of adrenalin in the cockpit.
Vettel should have been black flagged. Not 100% sure how intentional it was, the replays I have seen don't show if he deliberately steered into him, nor is it like he tried to take him out. 10 stop and go wasn't enough.
Of course Jerez 97 applies! The reasons, circumstances and intent around what happened are totally irrelevant! He used his car to hit a competitors. Every race in the season is worth the same number of points regardless of whether it is the season finale or the first race. If a driver does what schumacher did or what vettel did the punishment should be the same. Just because it's the season finale isn't written in the rules and never will be! The action and intent is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
If I punch a competitor in the World Cup final versus the first game in the group stages should I be treated any different? Absolutely not! I get sent off and probably receive further sanctions after.
Only because of years of witnessing clear bias in the Stewards room towards VettelQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
His adrenaline is irrelevant - all other drivers on the grid don't behave like that, he shouldn't get after pass just because he is prone to "red mist" moments.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
FIA to investigate on Monday. Let us hope they too don't bottle it like the Stewards:
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10930391/sebastian-vettel-clash-with-lewis-hamilton-to-face-further-fia-probe
I respectfully disagree; I think it matters whether the contact was intended to just bang wheels or to actually take out the other driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I agree with that to a large extent, except for this: The fact that it was the last race of the season, and the championship was on the line, helped establish the that the intent was to take Villeneuve out of the race.Quote:
Every race in the season is worth the same number of points regardless of whether it is the season finale or the first race. If a driver does what schumacher did or what vettel did the punishment should be the same. Just because it's the season finale isn't written in the rules and never will be! The action and intent is the same. If I punch a competitor in the World Cup final versus the first game in the group stages should I be treated any different? Absolutely not! I get sent off and probably receive further sanctions after.
Jerez doesn't apply because the penalty meant nothing towards the championship. They took away points from a championship he had already lost. Before the penalty, his chances of winning were 0.0% That didn't reduce after the penalty. The purpose of the penalty was to humiliate. If they really wanted to hand him a harsh penalty they would have banned him for X races in the following season.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I say ban him from the next race or take away his points from Baku. And coincidentally, this would be the perfect punishment for the championship race (FIA $$$) as well as it makes things closer in a season that finally has a close rivalry between top teams. Banning Vettel for more than a race would kill the season, so even if it were the right thing to do, it wouldn't happen because there's too much money at stake.
I think we are coming back to the question of degree of intent.The fact of the matter was he displayed a red mist reaction. Whether by doing so he lost control and caused the wheels to bang into each other or he intentionally did it is the same punishable offence. The reason was that it could have caused a bad accident involving himself, Hamilton and the train of cars behind that would not see the crashed cars until they were upon them. A spectacular pile up could have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
There are other consideration as well.One is that Vettel is a repeat offender of unbecoming driverly conduct. His insulting tirade to Charlie Whiting does not go unremembered. There has been other minor flashes of flared anger witnessed in the past.
Secondly, the use of an F1 car as a weapon to intimidate a fellow driver should be seriously frown upon. As this could easily set a very dangerous precedent.
I fail to see how Vettel should walk away from this without some very clear indication that this sort of conduct is not tolerated in F1.
The idea of taking away the points for Baku does make sense , being that he came in ahead of Hamilton , and a move like that , whether deliberate or not should merit more than what he got during the race .Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
I agree - the main "penalty" for Jerez was that Schuey couldn't go the FIA banquet and pick up his trophy for 2nd (aka first of the losers) in the driver's championship. Big deal. He still got to keep all his wins from the 1997 season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
I am also getting a little fed up how a bunch of major news outlets are describing the incident.
Autosport and a few others are going full speed with "war of the world Champs" or "WDC leaders in latest Feud"
the same outlets and many more others describing it as a Clash of drivers and "who is to blame for the drivers banging wheels"
To me all that is rubbish. It isn't some kind of he said - he said situation or a scenario where they were clashing with each other or in some kind of feud.
That would indicate both parties involved in something subjective worthy of trying to apportion blame.
The simple fact is only one driver clumsily barged into the back of another, and then went on to deliberately drive his car into the other in a fit of rage.
Hamilton for his part, remained calm and never sought to retaliate or even show any kind of demonstrable aggravation (which I would have done)
But many media outlets are still playing this up like it is worthy of a debate.
oh well
I think the 2017 season just started in earnest in Baku. We have a rivalry akin to the Rosberg-Hamilton showdown of 2016. To make it interesting, it is a German vs British in the vein of Hill Vs Schumacher, Hamilton vs Rosberg etc.
The controversy is sweet and we enthuse over all aspect of it with emotion and passion as two Colossus of modern day F1 do battle for the honour of winning the 2017 driver's title. If anything, it is clearly crunch time and Vettel lets out a yell as he does the Vetbang on Hamilton. The rest of the season is faced with a challenge to emulate this spectacular and highly bizzare Baku race. The price of error remains high as is the cost of dwelling on an emerging problem to Force India's disappointment.
At Baku, F1 finally got our full attention and we eagerly await the Spielberg showdown.
Indeed. Either way, the rest of the season should be one for the ages. Spielberg should be interesting, but I have a strong suspicion that one of the Ferraris will be driven by Antonio Giovinazzi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
This is very true. There has been more debate and passion in this microcosm of a forum then there has been in a long time. Everyone's juices are flowing and I imagine there will be a bigger audience for the next race than there would have been otherwise. Bad for the sporting image, but good for the sport, which has been seeing declining interest for a while. It's the WWF of auto racing. Can everybody say NASCAR ya'll? :D;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Personally this season had my full attention before this clusterf#$k. If Vettel didn't go "mental" he would have won the race (assuming his initial contact with LH didn't dislodge his neck support)and increased his lead in the WDC. So now we have this polarizing event. I was pulling for "The Boss", now I'm still pulling for him, maybe a little harder. The key for me is that the future races resemble Baku, not the processions that have become all too common.
Roll on Austria!
The purpose of the penalty should have been to say what is and isn't acceptable. Deliberately taking out your rivals should not be acceptable, period. I would have banned Senna after Suzuka, I would have banned Schumacher after Jerez and I would have banned Vettel after Baku. I don't care if the incident happened at 200mph or 2mph - the principle is identical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
You can never fully judge intent. No one actually knows if Schumachers intent was to take JV out 100% except Schumacher. Maybe he just wanted to make him hobble and finish second. You can only base it upon what you see the action was. Once you start bringing in interpretation to the rules which have been set out, which is the main reason why we have such inconsistency in F1 to begin with, then you will never have consistency. For consistency he should he excluded from the championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
And why did he lose the championship, because he hit JV. JV was likely to end up on the gravel otherwise. Schumacher ruined his chance of the championship by what he did and had 0% chance of winning so, for consistency, so should Vettel. A 2-3 race ban would be enough to guarantee he doesn't win this years championship anyway, but probably be enough to keep people interested. And since the purpose of removing him from the championship was humiliation, then there is no better way of doing it to Vettel than a season ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
My gut is that he will get an extra 3 points on his license and be banned for racing in Austria. My only hope would be that he isn't allowed race under appeal in that circumstance. My real hope is that he will be remove from the season. Whether there is close rivalry this season should not factor into the decision of the punishment he receives.
Nail on the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
That's hardly a surprise. Despite what people think, the purpose of the media isn't to tell the news, it is to sell a story to keep people interested and coming back for more. CNN has made millions from the fictitious Der narrative over Trump and Russia. There are videos out there which have just been released which clearly show CNN officials saying the Russia new story is a "Nothing-burger" and another stating that it probably is untrue but they have been given a directive by their CEO to harp on about Russia. The reason for it is ratings. The story has made CNN millions, they don't care about the truth, they care about profit. It's no different with any other news network or F1 journalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
I really would like to know, what Vettel did to you, when you met him. Must have been something terrible to justify all this hatred towards him. Tell you what, I ve also had many bad experiences, meeting some of mine idols. Well, I didn't start to hate them, or stopped to support them or stopped to buy their music. People are different and not everyone has a nice attitude when you meet them. So If I were Vettel, right now, I would be more afraid of you, than the FIA...:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Sure you can judge intent - The Man On The Clapham Omnibus test.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
1. Would a reasonable person have forseen the natural and probable consequence of those actions?
2. Could a reasonable person have foreseen that result, with reference to all the evidence?
Sure, no one actually knows if Schumacher's intent was to take JV out 100% except Schumacher but you can ask if a reasonable person based on the evidence could have forseen it.
Aside: Everyone knows what Senna's intent was at Suzuka in 1990. He said as much before the race. He should have been banned forever.
Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso donīt agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
And, FIA will investigate the whole incident, which means both Lewis and Vettels doings.
If a football players slaps another, he would get a red card and at least a match ban, in normal conditions. It's not conditioned by an injury or physical damages, it's for unsportsmanlike conduct. I think the same logic should apply in F1. I think they should get the message across that such behavior is unacceptable and that there will be consequences for anyone who can't get a hold of himself.
I don't get the 'red mist' argument. What are we talking about here? Are we saying we should look away because he can't help himself. Is that really an excuse?
Well , Michael did say it was "deliberate , but instinctual" , so we can actually determine that his intent was to hit Jacques .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
He admitted to a deliberate action .
As a devout JV fan , I wanted his head at first , but when I heard that quote , I heard him saying it was entirely his fault , and a moment when he wasn't able to control himself because of his extreme desire to win .
He took a lot of abuse for his actions , stood up to it and took the embarrassment of it , but came back fighting .
He earned my forgiveness , and a lot of respect for the way that he dealt with his horrible brain fade .
We have no such admission from Sebastian .
Only growls about a brake check .
He's got two brain fades he needs to concede .
One is that he was caught out by trying to stay closer for the restart , and the other that he banged wheels .
Both could be entirely simple errors , as even the second is not so uncommon , seeing a driver alongside , gesticulating at the other , without contact , of course .
But , to say nothing ?
Public outcry may still prompt that meeting , and a big red stonewall may not help their cause much .
Why the comparisons to football, headbutts, punches and slaps? :D
F1, football and their punishments are nothing alike, no should they be.
Vet swerved towards Lewis and they bumped wheels... Yes it was very silly, yes the punishment was too lenient but it was not a physical assault and being at low speed, it did not endanger Lewis.
Would the executioners on here be saying the same if it was their favourite driver who did it? I think not...
While MSC did acknowledge his culpability in that case ,he was of course a serial violator of what can be considered ethical behavior prior and post that incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
We remember his fight with Damon Hill and what exactly he did to earn that championship in 1994 in Australia,
He then tried the same thing in 197 with JV and rightly got sanctioned for it.
His most similar incident was in Belgium 98 when he ploughed into the back of DC due to spray and in his own red mist tried to start a fistacuffs in the pit lane instead of simply doing a mea culpa
Then Monaco 2006 ( one that Rosberg emulated, and laughably actually got a way with)
Also trying to take out Rubens in Hungary 2013 (I think)
Not to mention all the other little things he got away with because he was driving the Ferrari. So He never earned my forgiveness for his behavior. But has my respect as arguably the all time best F1 driver. No matter his flaws, he was supremely talented. Much the same with Senna, who I actually loathed as a driver.
Yeah, i hear you on that front. Let's hope he learns from this finally, because i for one would like to see a thrilling competition without the need for all this extra stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I also thought the battle was nicely balanced already and did not need any of this extra stuff to spice it up. It was 2 competitors both at the top f their game in two different cars, going back and forth in wins and exciting races. There was enough drama, tension and interest for the championship before this incident. I'm not sure about those who think they need it to be nasty to keep their interest. Journalists i see, who think it is fodder for their paper and headlines. But for the F1 fan, this was already shaping up to be an epic year with 4-6 guys capable of winning races and Force India lurking right behind, along with Williams.
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Why not? As a referee I have the power to send people off. If there were headbutts, punches and slaps, I'd not only send them off but report them to the association and have them suspended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Senna's intent was to take out a competitor.
Schumacher's intent was to take out a competitor.
Vettel's intent, I think, was less sinister - to get Hamilton's attention and to display his anger at (what he thought) being brake tested. If he wanted to take Hamilton out, he would have.
Wrong? Yes. Wrong to the degree of the other two? Not even close.
Anything more than a 1 race ban & points on his licence is too much.
But it does spice up the season. Every good movie needs a villain. That's part of what made the Senna & MSC years interesting.
What I'd love would be for the FIA to come out and state unequivocally:
a) did Lewis do anything wrong
Brake/steering/throttle vs the actual rule book on restarts. None of this "he was naughty".
b) did Seb deliberately swerve
Steering input/throttle etc. Did the car just get away from him or did he steer.
I couldn't give a stuff about penalties any more. I'm more annoyed at the vagueness of the official statements.
I just want the FIA to give actual clear and transparent answers.
And I want Ron Dennis to give the answers. That way there's no doubt as to what's what.
Well, the data has shown that Hamilton didn't do anything different to the other restarts so I can't see how he could be at fault. I guess we'll find out today. I suspect Seb will be disqualified from Baku GP and perhaps the Austrian GP as well. Although the title challenge shouldn't factor into any decision the FIA make, it is unlikely they will ban him for the rest of the season as much as he may deserve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMorel
Personally, if were they to ban him for the remainder of the season I would be very proud of the FIA. It would be consistent with Jerez 97 which is the last time I can remember a driver turned in on another in such a manner.
Has anyone heard if Hamilton has said that he was aware that Vettel was following much closer on that second restart ?