Kris is a wonderful boy who throws excitement in every race so we need such boys. Some days are good and some not so good, but without Kris some of the excitement will disappear in the top.
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Kris is a wonderful boy who throws excitement in every race so we need such boys. Some days are good and some not so good, but without Kris some of the excitement will disappear in the top.
This is a Kris Meeke discussion. No-one mentioned Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
And the fact is you're the anti-Ford spammer. That's all you ever do here.
Ok, NRF is ground zero for Kris.He either does well and keeps his seat and career alive or he does badly (~crashes) and we only see him driving Colin's old cars at Rallyshows from then on.No in between.
what you expect from him in finland.
Is 5th ok? Because it seems to be enough for Citroen right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
Depending on how things go, I think a clean 5th place would be good.
Noted. Given he dominated it last year, it would then be a good indication of where the team is with the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
There are far too many trees in Finland to hit, he should focus on bringing it home, than throwing everything for a win, which wouldn't matter anyway.
Perhaps Matton could find an old DS3 or an R5 in the shed for Meeke to do a regional rally or two with?
Suddenly he's the man from Dundriving!
First off, i'd say i really like his style and the passion he brings to rallying. I am a fan of his. There is no doubt he is a fast driver; never a dull moment for sure. For me his personality adds something to WRC. I've really tried to not comment on Kris for the last few events as i preferred to see how things would play out before trying to make any kind of assessment. I've read the comments on here and via the media and i kind of see the different angles and views persons have taken.
With all that said, and personally preferring to see Kris in the WRC at the highest level, i really can't be upset with Matton about giving him a break. Now let's be real, he's a rally driver, that's his profession!! and he's done an awful job of it this year so far---what is it, 8 crashes in 7 rallies? He's cost the team a lot of money in repairs and man hours, which even if you had the budget for, it's still money that is being wasted ---this money could be reallocated to developing the car over the year, getting personnel to improve the car, etc.
For the average person, the bottom line is, if you don't do your job, then there are consequences --- reprimand, temporary lay-off, fired,...so Kris should be subject to the same. Who wants an employee that is not pulling their weight/under-performing constantly? Something must be done different to try to elicit a different outcome at some point.
As a public, we are not privy to every detail concerning the car's testing/development last year, but Kris seemed to be heavily involved in the testing and some have indicated the car was built around his driving style...so if this is potentially the case, and he did seem happy about it last year, why then all of a sudden the car is now "crap". It is obvious the car has issues, but somehow it can't be total crap if it has won a WRC rally and stages. Again, the car needs work as some have pointed to suspension, geometry, etc.
I think it would be wise to use Andreas, as well as draw on the vast experience of Carlos, Loeb (if at all possible, as he has won them countless titles and developed winning cars before) Gronholm, Mikko, Sarrazin and other such quality developmental drivers and engineers to highlight the main issues and try to rectify them---in my opinion such persons should have been asked from the very beginning, but that's another story. Well now, maybe the team can see 2017 as a testing and development year. Pointing fingers at each other is certainly not going to fix the problems. I'm optimistic that the car can be fixed and be an effective weapon in WRC with good drivers behind the wheel.
Another concern i had with Kris was what seemed like his inability to dial it back a notch and bring the car home safely for points after a rough few events, a trait exhibited by the WDCs Ogier this year and Loeb in the past. Even in the car's current state, i suspect Kris is of a high enough caliber to maybe land in the top 5 on most events on a lesser pace, especially given the kind of attrition that occurs in some rallies. If he did that, may be he and his team would still haul some decent points in both championships.
I agree..Seems angry and touchy...Sounds like a Subaru fan-boi.. Wonder if he's ever done a rally ever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Augury
Biased or not?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/voiceofrally/posts/
“My Thoughts on Meeke and Citroen
Is it fair to say Citroen Racing are in a bit of a crisis? That was the opening line from my post Portugal column and if it wasn’t exactly a crisis then, it most certainly is a crisis now. And on the face of it, the panic buttons have been well and truly pressed. Dropping Kris Meeke for Poland and heaping all the blame for a less than satisfactory season so far at the door of one person is a bizarre response to what is clearly a collective problem.
It’s very easy to look at the stats and say that Meeke has undelivered so far. But stats in isolation are no basis for making or justifying decisions. The only mistakes that can fairly be attributed to Meeke were in Monte Carlo and Portugal. In Sweden the car was undriveable, Argentina unpredictable, Corsica unreliable and in Sardinia the accident unexplainable!
There is very clearly something amiss with the 2017 C3WRC and that is not the sole responsibility of one man.
You only have to look at the performances of Breen and Mikkelsen in Sardinia to realise that all is far from perfect with the car’s performance. Mikkelsen, a man who has won three rallies and is considered one of the very best drivers in the world finished a country mile behind the winner. Eight minutes down on Tanak’s time with only minor issues speaks volumes. And I really don't buy this “I’m taking my time learning the car” line. Young Lappi, with only one rally at the top level and immeasurably less experience than Mikkelsen sets fastest times in six stages and blew the Cirtroens away. Mikkelsen was and still is a world class, rally winning driver - so explain that one with your stats!
Likewise, Breen once again reported the car behaving strangely and in the Monte Lerno stage was over a minute down on the fastest time. There is a lot of evidence that sadly points towards more fundamental issues within the team other than just the underperformance of one driver.
Meeke would appear to be the sacrificial lamb. Publicly chastised and humiliated, he is being told effectively to take one for the team. All bosses deal with crisis situations in different ways. But i prefer the approach of Monsieur Nandan. When Neuville, his highly paid plainly unhappy number one driver was failing consistently to deliver the goods, Nandan stood by him. He gave him time, and worked through the problems with the driver and the car. Look at the result now - the only driver capable of seriously challenging Ogier. And is there any talk of Nandan dropping Paddon after his difficult start to the season? Of course not.
And finally, what the hell is wrong with us Brits? We have a world class driver who can and will win many more rallies but we crucify him with an almost vengeful joy when things aren't going his way. Sadly there’s a transparently fragile shallowness to the “support” of some within the UK rallying community. I have to say, it really does make me very angry, but maybe more than that, very sad.”
Keith Oswin's reply
Quote:
Comparisons are inevitably drawn between Meeke and McRae so I'll share one story from my time at Autosport. After McRae had needlessly wrecked another Impreza in Argentina 1994, David Richards called me on the Monday morning and asked me to write a story questioning McRae's future in the team. I was pretty shocked but DR explained that Colin simply didn't seem to be getting the message and so, maybe, if the story was made public, the penny might drop. History shows that McRae DID get the message and go on to become World Champion next year. I've no idea how much (if indeed any) of that was down to the story but, in light of Citroen's decision, I can't help wondering if this might not be an inspired move by Yves Matton and that, in a few month's time, people might look back and see this as a turning point in Meeke's career...
Nandan demoted Neuville and there seemed to be pressure on him to get his act together. I think there was also a quote after his Monte and Sweden mistakes that such a performance is not ok (but I may be wrong). Sure he didn't drop him completely but I don't think this comparison is entirely correct. That's not to say I think Matton managed the situation well but we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Now that everyone has pretty much agreed that the Citroen car is very sensitive to setup and conditions it will be interesting to see if it can be fixed with setup or there is some fundamental flaw. Remember Meeke did almost all of the development driving so only he and/or the engineers can be blamed for this.
Do you guys believe Meeke had the freedome to drive the way he likes, or he was asked to obey orders, and he didn't?
I think this is a key question in order to determine whether we have to blame him or not.
Interesting piece. It shows how current brit journos are so short seeing on Meeke’s driving approach. They’re helping him to fall off the cliff, not to avoid it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
May be they just see Evans as the next british champion?!?
What about Citroens own PR release..."giving Meeke time off to recharge for Finland return where he won last year."
By implication they are implying the want him to do the same this year?
So, maybe Matton and Citroen should make public Meeke objectives for Finland?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Agree, the team communication (Matton comments included) seems to be as erratic as Meeke's driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
Dont forget the the car either...;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
He twists a lots of stuff to push his point. I might agree or disagree with this point, but either way I dislike how he tells half-truths or even wrong info to get it across.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Argentina second off is totally Meeke's fault.
Sardinia "unexplainable".... I guess it was aliens then.
Mikkelsen lost 2 mins due to puncture, and some 30-50s due to diff failure and rwd only so which is 30+% of the 8 mins. "Only minor issues". Yes he was very slow everyone agrees that so why the need to twist this.
Lappi... sure he has much less experience than Mikkelsen overall. But Mikkelsen had 1 day with 300 km on different gravel as car experience. Lappi 1 rally and prbly thousands of kms since he has been testing it for at least 6 months. He did extremely well yes, but car experience is incomparable in his favor.
Also this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Don't forget Yaris is better car than C3. Generally I also disagree with Clark's "pink" spectacles. If the car is soooo underivable, what did Meeke do whole last year? Taking a few wins for the glory?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
You look at meeke big high speed off on argentina.. the front to the car was floating left to right immediatly before accident at 200kph... my theory is the rear wing was refitted with wrong pitch after first accident, as the boot was totally missing.. so there was way to much down force on rear.. and light at the front.. it jist didnt turn in. Its not an unreasonable explaination. Just watch it again before making a judgementQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Yep. He also forgot to mention that during '15 Neuville did some rallys in Hyundai's B team and how harsh Penasse was to him at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
You can be right, but wasn't he needlessly overdriving it, just like on that final stage at Mexico?Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
that doesn't matter. even if the car was on 3 wheels and burning, he shouldn't crash it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
otherwise, whats next? i crashed because my tyres where worn? i crashed because the engineers didn't mount a second spoiler?
you can only drive as fast as the cars allows it, going faster and crashing out is the drivers fault.
yes, there is a serious problem with the car that makes it do strange unpredictable things, but they know that so its actually not unpredictable.
if you know that you will likely lose control if you go flatout over a certain jump, than you can just choose to back off a little instead of trying it and crashing every second time.
I think he meant loss of expected aero at high speed caused the off.
Think about it like Mercedes gt1 car at Le Mans in 1999, it can happen.
Whether or not it was in this case though is difficult to say, I thought it was driver error.
Amazing how some keyboards warriors seem to have all the answers, but couldnt get within 10s per km of any of these top guys.. and have no appreciation what its like to drive a 30km stage to within tenths of a second of each other. On a 30 min stage... if you think you can throttle back 1 percent...is 18seconds..2 percent is 36s... thats how tight it is. Its a total sprint. Come off 1% or your not comfortable with your car.... your an also ran. these guys have bigger balls than you could ever dream off.
The point is Clark is cherry picking facts in his analysis to support his point. The most blatant for me is forgetting Neuville got demoted and criticised then and even this year after his crashes. In the end Breen drove less rallies than Meeke and is ahead of him in the standings so one can argue something IS NOT working there. Also don't forget in Mexico, Meeke was lucky to escape from that car park. It could be much worse.
I think there is no single reason Citroen is in the state that it is, it's probably several causes:
- mismanagement of testing programme (relying on just Meeke)
- "smart" engineers who made a fast but undriveable car
- "bin it or win it" Meeke isn't as good as development as people say
- budget issues
- bad choices regarding drivers (not getting an ex VW driver, giving Lefebvre too much too fast)
- chaos within the team (contradictory statements and expectations)
so? I don't have to be a world champion to look and see some drivers are not crashing and one is crashing twice per rally. Be it his fault or the car, that's too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
Basically it's true, but big balls aren't enough - you still need a brainQuote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
So what? Ogier is doing exactly this when not comfortable with the car, which has been the most rallys '17. The only full attack mode I think was in Portugal, and boy he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
BTW 30 min. stages are rare in the season, but You must make sure to finish those.
so in full attack mode ogier is still slower than tanak....Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
I'm counting 5*5 1st & 2nd for Ogier, only 3*1 1st & 2nd for Tanak, that's enough math for me.
But this thread is for Meeke anyway.
Chill out mate. Nobody disrespected Meeke, so there’s no need to start using that kind of immature and insulting arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
No argument. Just tell me what part of my statement was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
i can respect your opinion on this matter....we are all entitled to our views...sometimes we agree, and other times not so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
however, i don't think its nothing personal against Meeke, as many seem to generally like the guy (he seems like an easy going kind of person who is very passionate about rally...and he's definitely fast... consistency is questionable). We are not supposed to get within 10s per km of him, that's not our job, but its certainly part of his with regards to his competition. After all, that why he's a professional rally driver and many of us are not, we are more a forum of people who enjoy rallying (granted some members seem to have driven at various levels). Its not solely about the level of his bravery behind the wheel, but also his ability to evaluate the situation and come up with some reasonable plan of action as required. The latter is what is in question at the moment and causing all the stir. As i mentioned before, 8 crashes in 7 rallies is not good regardless of how you look at it---even as a Meeke fan
Although meeke is quite crash prone there have been a few incidents this year that may have been his fault they may have been the cars. We will never know. But i reckon its a combination of meeke and the car in most cases. Going on the comments of breen/mikkleson the car can be great on one stage terrible on the next. So if in a rally meeke has done say 3 stages and is feeling comfortable and relaxed in the car. Then all of a sudden these handling issues arise in the 4th stage totally unexpected to u. What do u do. Some would back of and some like meeke would try to drive through it. For me its to close of a margin to blame either the car or the driver. But the outcome has been the same to often unfortunatly
This is pretty much how I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wia5958
I read an article from a Belfast newspaper that states Meeke is "not unhappy" about being dropped for Poland. It also says when asked why he hasn't dialled it back and driven within the cars limits, he has been told to go out and win rallies, so that is exactly what he has been trying to do.
try 1 time, try 2 times, try more times, the result is always the same. You can't win rallies like this.
mexico, corsica, leading every rally since?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv