Brexit

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Direct-democracy (i.e referendum) only result in populism winning.

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That's a pretty snobbish and elitist attitude you're expressing. As is "shut up, big brother knows what is good for you, you're too stupid to know anything yourself". The vote is done so learn to live with it.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Nobody ever forced UK to join EU in the first place, that's why I dislike yesterday's choice.

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Not quite true. The UK voted to join the EEC, before the EU was created.

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Originally Posted by Starter

The vote is done so learn to live with it.

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But the result was very tight. It would have been easier to deal with it if one of the sides had a large majority. But as it is it' s almost half/half and the frustration of those who lost may be understood. BTW, in case of perfect equality what would have happened? Deciding the result on penalties? :p

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But the result was very tight. It would have been easier to deal with it if one of the sides had a large majority. But as it is it' s almost half/half and the frustration of those who lost may be understood. BTW, in case of perfect equality what would have happened? Deciding the result on penalties? :p

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If it went to penalties then the Germans would win....:confused:

http://www.soccerstyle24.it/wp-conte...96-595x420.jpg

I hope that something good for the EU will come out of this. I never though that the EU is perfect so there's definitely place for improvements. Maybe now they'll have some motivation to make some reforms. Of course, the Leave campaign was not as much focused on the real problems as they were on all sorts of rubbish, false facts and figures and myths about the EU membership.

There is definitely the downside, mostly economic, for both UK and EU about this split but I think there's something good in it too. Britain was already barely in. They weren't really a constructive force in EU. More like the opposite. They were always the exception, always negative, always special, always opting out. I certainly won't miss their condescending attitude.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But the result was very tight.

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You'd also get a different number of votes if you had a 'do over' today, partly because of those that threw away their vote and partly because of idiots like this bloke http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/man-wh...award-5964450/

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Originally Posted by MrJan

You'd also get a different number of votes if you had a 'do over' today, partly because of those that threw away their vote and partly because of idiots like this bloke http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/man-wh...award-5964450/

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What better argument one can have against this sort of 'direct democracy' than this guy. He voted to leave because he thought remain will win. It's so funny and sad at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Starter

That's a pretty snobbish and elitist attitude you're expressing. As is "shut up, big brother knows what is good for you, you're too stupid to know anything yourself". The vote is done so learn to live with it.

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If that's how I come across then so be it. I apologise if you don't like it.

As part of my degree I studied the 'Economics of European Integration' so I believe I was probably better informed on this debate than many other people. I know this is elitist, but I believe it to be true.

If people voted 'leave' from a well reasoned opinion then I don't have a problem. That's how democracy should work. But I have a dreadful feeling in my stomach that many people have voted leave on the back of lies, myths and misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

As part of my degree I studied the 'Economics of European Integration' so I believe I was probably better informed on this debate than many other people. I know this is elitist, but I believe it to be true.

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Your vote only counts once like everyone elses though. Sadly your extra knowledge could only have been any use if you campaigned actively and informed others of what you saw.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Real friendship is not related to a pragmatic attitude. It might require loyalty and sacrifices. I generally appreciate your positive attitude but I don't believe that stupid cliche of we divorced but we're still best friends. :p

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Countries should not be run with that emotion though. It should always be how does each party get the best from the current situation. It would aid both sides to remain trading partners and allow movement of peoples. Which wont stop despite some Leave voters wanting it and Remain voters stating thats what will happen.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

It would aid both sides to remain trading partners and allow movement of peoples. Which wont stop despite some Leave voters wanting it and Remain voters stating thats what will happen.

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If that happens what would UK actually leave? Besides leaving the decisions entirely to the other countries to make. Then they would be right to complain they have lost their independence. I'm not sure what would they leave then to get it back.

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Originally Posted by Big Ben

I hope that something good for the EU will come out of this. I never though that the EU is perfect so there's definitely place for improvements. Maybe now they'll have some motivation to make some reforms. Of course, the Leave campaign was not as much focused on the real problems as they were on all sorts of rubbish, false facts and figures and myths about the EU membership.

There is definitely the downside, mostly economic, for both UK and EU about this split but I think there's something good in it too. Britain was already barely in. They weren't really a constructive force in EU. More like the opposite. They were always the exception, always negative, always special, always opting out. I certainly won't miss their condescending attitude.

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This is a big opportunity for the eastern countries to take more control in the EU. The EU has always been a balance between France and Germany, or between north and south. Even though the UK was never a very active member they were very important for Germany and the northern camp. Brexit leaves a very big hole in Northwestern politics in the EU. I wonder if now the whole focus of the EU moves eastwards, literally turning their backs on London.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

As part of my degree I studied the 'Economics of European Integration' so I believe I was probably better informed on this debate than many other people. I know this is elitist, but I believe it to be true.

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I apologize if you felt I was attacking you specifically, that was not my intent.

I have a built in suspicion when "authorities" tell me something is true or untrue. I don't reject it out of hand, but do give it extra scrutiny. It's unfortunate that in too many instances skepticism is well warranted.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Your vote only counts once like everyone elses though..

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In Absurdistan it's a bit different. Citizens travel by bus from an election station to another in a sort of election tourism that allow them to vote on suplimentary lists. Also we find out that people who died a long time ago have currently voted. And many many other types of election frauds. :p

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Originally Posted by Big Ben

Britain was already barely in. They weren't really a constructive force in EU. More like the opposite. They were always the exception, always negative, always special, always opting out. I certainly won't miss their condescending attitude.

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We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
- Sir Humphrey Appleby, Yes Minister.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

As part of my degree I studied the 'Economics of European Integration' so I believe I was probably better informed on this debate than many other people. I know this is elitist, but I believe it to be true.

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Oh wow. It is funny how people who have taken a course in uni think they are experts or that they somehow suddenly so well informed on the topic. This is not an attack on you, but a general thing I have noticed in life. Life experience counts far more than few worthless courses taken in uni, but it takes people a while to understand that. It is also why so many older people see young people as arrogant, who haven't paid their dues in life, yet consider themselves to know it all.

Anyway, I was surprised by this decision of brits, I expected it to close but the other way round, with Remain winning over Leave. Obviously a shock to the system and now is the time for EU to make some conclusions based on this. Can we keep on going the same way as we have done so far or is it time to think and make some changes. No matter how you try to paint it - that people who voted for Brexit are morons etc - you cannot deny that something like 15 million brits voted for "leave". That is a huge amount and shows that many people are unhappy with EU, that people are unhappy with the elite. That people are unhappy with bureacracy, immigration, economy and so on (Let's be honest, these are huge issues now and absolutley no one can deny that). Obviously, some of them were manipulated by lies and misinformation, but wasn't the same for people voting "remain"? We know well enough that most people are morons and easily swayed by propaganda and in this case, we know that there were enough morons on both sides.
As I said, this is the time for EU to rethink their policies.

As for myself, I absolutely detest the EU and the amount of useless EU officers working in Brussels, whose daily jobs consist of talking, drinking coffee and doing 25 minutes of work as slowly as possible. And I could keep on going what else I detest about EU. But sadly, the alternative is even worse. So, if I was british, I would have probably voted for "remain".

What I do find funny though, is that people who voted for "independence" of UK, might have directly contributed to the actual end of the empire.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Oh wow. It is funny how people who have taken a course in uni think they are experts or that they somehow suddenly so well informed on the topic. This is not an attack on you, but a general thing I have noticed in life. Life experience counts far more than few worthless courses taken in uni, but it takes people a while to understand that. It is also why so many older people see young people as arrogant, who haven't paid their dues in life, yet consider themselves to know it all.

Anyway, I was surprised by this decision of brits, I expected it to close but the other way round, with Remain winning over Leave. Obviously a shock to the system and now is the time for EU to make some conclusions based on this. Can we keep on going the same way as we have done so far or is it time to think and make some changes. No matter how you try to paint it - that people who voted for Brexit are morons etc - you cannot deny that something like 15 million brits voted for "leave". That is a huge amount and shows that many people are unhappy with EU, that people are unhappy with the elite. That people are unhappy with bureacracy, immigration, economy and so on (Let's be honest, these are huge issues now and absolutley no one can deny that). Obviously, some of them were manipulated by lies and misinformation, but wasn't the same for people voting "remain"? We know well enough that most people are morons and easily swayed by propaganda and in this case, we know that there were enough morons on both sides.
As I said, this is the time for EU to rethink their policies.

As for myself, I absolutely detest the EU and the amount of useless EU officers working in Brussels, whose daily jobs consist of talking, drinking coffee and doing 25 minutes of work as slowly as possible. And I could keep on going what else I detest about EU. But sadly, the alternative is even worse. So, if I was british, I would have probably voted for "remain".

What I do find funny though, is that people who voted for "independence" of UK, might have directly contributed to the actual end of the empire.

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Gary, I agree with you on almost everything here.

I too hate arrogant graduates who think they know everything. But my frustration comes from people who vote without any clue about what the EU is or what it is they are voting for. It just seems insane to me.

The most recent comment I saw on social media that made me cringe:

'If people loved the EU so much why don't they go and live there instead'

Erm...we can't now. Not freely.

I actually dislike a lot about the EU as well. But I worry now that the UK is playing a game that we can't win. I worry for my brother who is a sheep farmer and now has no idea what is income is going to be. And I hate that people who call me a traitor for voting remain may have ruined my country by voting leave.

Positives? Potentially lower property prices as a first time buyer. I work in the seafood industry, which might have the freedom to rival Norway now.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...60d339b125.jpg


:angel:

This is definitely the most challenging period in my lifetime. I can't believe there are people out there that voted leave and are now regretting it! You should have done your homework.

What really made me cringe was when 'Good Morning Britain' interviewed Nigel Farage and asked him if £350m a week was going to now go purely to the NHS. Of course it's not you silly people! The EU have funded and been instrumental in building many projects through grants. The money we no longer donate will have to be fairly distributed.

I voted Remain.

People are completely stupid if they voted and are regretting it after 1 day..... blatant not researching or knowing what you want.

Hopefully our British friends will soon understand that the world still needs them a lot and trade and other relations will continue. I guess everybody will be positively surprised to see how much can be accomplished on a bilateral basis without going through international bureaucracy.

And if anyone has any doubts just look at Belarus how much they have accomplished.


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Originally Posted by Big Ben

And if anyone has any doubts just look at Belarus how much they have accomplished.


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Thats not a nice thing to say. :(

My sources in London are saying that immigrants and the EU citizens are being loaded into cattle cars at the Waterloo station as we speak.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Thats not a nice thing to say. :(

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Give him a credit where it's due, Steveaki. It's a killing argument, isn't it? He got me. ;)

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Thats not a nice thing to say. :(

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Couldn't help it. I have one more. This is the same guy that was gloating around here how he prospers in a war zone. I respect nothing more than the 'words of wisdom' of a guy that prospers on other people's misery and is quite proud of it.

But Benny....
Our country has forces in that war zone. Aren't you proud of it? :confused:

They die like heroes there, they're decorated post mortem, but we both know they were there for money.

She's right, I served right next to Romanians, just for the record. I believe I also contributed to the rebuilding of that poor country by doing a civilian job there. At least the locals said thank you to me.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

As for myself, I absolutely detest the EU and the amount of useless EU officers working in Brussels, whose daily jobs consist of talking, drinking coffee and doing 25 minutes of work as slowly as possible. And I could keep on going what else I detest about EU. But sadly, the alternative is even worse.

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The alternative IS even worse - 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedoc...0Community.pdf
CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers
which menace it;


RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by
creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among
peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving
direction to their future common destiny;

- Treaty constituting the European Coal and Steel Community (1951).

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history...9/index_en.htm
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

- The history of the European Union: 1945 - 1959, from the "About the EU" page.

I'd rather useless EU officers talking, drinking coffee and doing 25 minutes of work as slowly as possible, than those same people working in nativist offices apart from each other, working out how to kill their neighbours as efficiently as possible.

The European Union is incompetent and impotent and deliberately so. The EU was designed as a make work exercise for precisely the same reason that the United States decided to send twelve clowns to the moon.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The alternative IS even worse - 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

The European Union is incompetent and impotent and deliberately so. The EU was designed as a make work exercise for precisely the same reason that the United States decided to send twelve clowns to the moon.

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1) i see you are sure that the future of humanity is firmly wedded to the Earth. Good luck with that.
2) Canada, Mexico and the US. Haven't had a war between these countries in well over a hundred years. How come we can do it but Europe can't?

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Originally Posted by Starter

1) i see you are sure that the future of humanity is firmly wedded to the Earth. Good luck with that.
2) Canada, Mexico and the US. Haven't had a war between these countries in well over a hundred years. How come we can do it but Europe can't?

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We do however kill each other domestically at rates and in sheer numbers approaching brush wars.....all for the glory of drugs and booze and coke and honor...

South of us we've cozied up to men who have done the killing for us. We've taught their militarys and police how to torture and kill for decades down at Fort Brag, we give or sell them arms they cannot afford to help them kill their own people quicker and easier...

As for Canada, why would we fight with them when they have been the largest source of capital investment in Merikuh and are so complaint with us...INTERTWINED ECONOMIES...
duh.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The alternative IS even worse - 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedoc...0Community.pdf
CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers
which menace it;


RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by
creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among
peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving
direction to their future common destiny;

- Treaty constituting the European Coal and Steel Community (1951).

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history...9/index_en.htm
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

- The history of the European Union: 1945 - 1959, from the "About the EU" page.

I'd rather useless EU officers talking, drinking coffee and doing 25 minutes of work as slowly as possible, than those same people working in nativist offices apart from each other, working out how to kill their neighbours as efficiently as possible.

The European Union is incompetent and impotent and deliberately so. The EU was designed as a make work exercise for precisely the same reason that the United States decided to send twelve clowns to the moon.

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So you are happy to live in a superstate, which is finely crafted to be the next worst thing after the Third Reich?

Gees, I thought we have it bad here...

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yeah... the EU is the fourth reich. that's exactly how it is :rolleyes: Nothing gets past you. the brexit was fueled by xenophobia because the EU cooking another holocaust :rolleyes:. That makes perfect sense. Look at the bright side. If WW3 is on the way you will be making the big bucks again.

A democratic Suprastate, yes, bring it on. The sooner the better. One can certainly be Hannoverian, a lower Saxon, a German and a Eu-citizen for example, they're not mutually exclusive.


Quite what your intention is bringing up the third Reich, I don't know. Worthy of the Farage campaign :rolleyes:

Ben, you can forward your sarcastic remarks to Rollo, as I was just coming to terms with his vision of the rationale behind the establishment of the EU.

You also need to finally grow up and learn to accept things, which happen despite your whims.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

A democratic Suprastate, yes, bring it on. The sooner the better. One can certainly be Hannoverian, a lower Saxon, a German and a Eu-citizen for example, they're not mutually exclusive.


Quite what your intention is bringing up the third Reich, I don't know. Worthy of the Farage campaign :rolleyes:

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It was not me who brought up the Third Reich and WWII. I just used this point to expose the flaws of this simplistic and, may I say, short-sighted thinking which only envisages two options: either EU or the total war and destruction.

Yeah, BTW, EU has a stellar record of stopping wars, doesn't it? For, instance, the war in Bosnia was stopped in Dayton, which is an EU residence in the suburbs of Brussels.

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The war in Bosnia was fought between EU members :rolleyes:

In its backyard by the countries some of which have recently joined EU and some aspire to do so.

And then EU did all the peacemaking.

Just with a little-little help from those reactionary Yanks...

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Even if Donkey likes the idea of a super state. It doesn't mean every nation has to agree and except being part of it. Britain hasn't so we should all now except where we are, grow up and come up with what's best for both parties.

Surely the EU will be better off now. We never committed fully so you can get on with the super state.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Even if Donkey likes the idea of a super state. It doesn't mean every nation has to agree and except being part of it. Britain hasn't so we should all now except where we are, grow up and come up with what's best for both parties.

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Heyyyy....UK voluntarely agreed to join EU, nobody ever set a gun to its head to force their entry. You know very well what you were doing from the very start. Leaving it today might be the will of majority but in my opinion it`s a lack of fair play.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Surely the EU will be better off now. We never committed fully so you can get on with the super state.

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Nahhh......EU without UK will be like this forum without Steve. :angel:

P.S. I think the latest replies on this thread are based on big misunderstandings of the authors. I blame it on the fact that for many of us English is not the first language.