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I catch your drift although it's about 3 French drivers, but you don't have to be French, you have to drive in France because this country provides car manufactures the best choice of all round drivers available. How many tarmac rallies are held in Scandinavia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
In WRC as well as ERC there is a mix of around 50-50 Tarmac-Gravel/snow. Maybe Even Rally Mamagement souls send its clients to Tarmac rallies elsewhere to gain this very necessary experience.
I think now the french school will be on the top for the next many years,the finnish school i think has just finnished.for every single finnish driver in the international scene there will be 10 from france.after france i belive in the future estonian school will be stable on the second place.i wonder what are they doing in italy and in england.italy always has good drivers but they stay on the domestic championsip,they are not used to do rallies abroad.about england what can i say?i have never understood the way they think about rallies and espessially about abroad rallies.
Interesting topic, as long as it stays objective.
I've been delighted to follow some French events over last years and one can see from the times that the competition is really tough. To me it's clear that why so many French drivers now comes to the highest level, it starts from beating the guy next to you in equal, national series and secondly, it looks like there's good financial support. Otherwise for example Lefebvre would not have done JERC and JWRC at the same time last year. It's good for him and good for us spectators as he is one of the most, if not the most interesting drivers at the moment. Camilli too is very, very impressive and I learned only now that he is so early in his career.
I would love to learn more about French series, what kind of budget they require, how the competetive spirit in general, where does the sponsor money come from, etc. It seems to work.
Of course I do have an idea why Finnish drivers haven't flooded the international top positions lately. We have of course Latvala who is the best driver in the world in a good day. Maybe this will be his good year. Lappi is reigning ERc champ if that's worth anything. Hänninen's achievements aren't that far back in the history either, but of course at the moment his career doesn't look good.
My idea isn't new. It's money. Or the lack of it. Like few forumers on this topic has said already why Finns don't drive abroad and it all comes down to money. If you look at our national series, F-cup is the most popular. It's good for a driver to start with, but one year should do, it's not 2015 in terms of eyeing an international career. Look at FRC. Only a few odd S2000/R5 around and even more rarely are they driven by those considered promising talents. Driving Gr. N Impreza year in year out doesn't take you anywhere - and in most cases those drivers are happy just to be able to have this hobby. In general, Finnish drivers, fast or not so fast drive with outdated machinery because that's the only choice. Other option would be not to drive at all. We have many local heroes, but mostly we don't expect them to do anything international, because we already know they don't have a chance. They could possible stand a chance, but they don't have chance.
There are few Finnish drivers who try their pace abroad, but not always are their the fastest of their generation. Tom mentioned Kinnunen and Lario, of which the latter is just a beginner and the previous, well, a fast guy but not the fastest. BRC champ Jukka Korhonen has talent, but after his title year, meaning last year, did he do any more than three starts of which he twice retired? (Touquet, Circuit of Ireland, Ypres) Tom also mentioned Swede Emil Bergqvist whom I'm following with interest. I've seen him live only twice, both in one make cup. First time was 2013 when Swedish rough Volvo Mekonomen Cup visited Finland. He was clearly head and shoulders above the rest. Last time in Rally Germany I saw Bergqvist do Opel Adam Cup and even if his times were at the top, he didn't stood out that much. There's still potential and of course Swedes put a much hope in him.
This year Samuli Vuorisalo will do Opel Adam Cup and now he is considered as one the fastest of his generation. Adam Cup is not Peugeot Volant, but it shows Vuorisalo is at least trying hard. I wish him all the best. It goes without saying he hasn't competed on tarmac before, though. (Did I mention it's practically impossible to organize tarmac rallies in Finland? At least they are not organized)
I think we will hear more from Henri Haapamäki as well. He has what we know as raw speed, so hopefully he gets chances to refine that.
Teemu Suninen is a joker. I can't tell about him, he is far too early in his career, but for sure it looks like he has an ability to learn fast and it also looks likemsome chances are coming in his favour.
I was spectating a local event today, Finnish Junior Championship event in Laukaa, you know, Rally Finland stages. Maybe three or four R2s. Juniors drove with smaller cars. My driver of the day is Henri Tuomisto. In the end he retired, but up until that was clearly the fastest in his class. In the last FRC event of 2013 Tuomisto was 2nd fastest R2 in his first - and so far only - R2 outing. He was faster than Haapamäki, Vuorisalo, do I have to mention Vatanen, ... He drove the best competition he had had that far. Last year, not much from him. Today he drove R1 Fiesta. But he is fast...
There are names, some more than mentioned here, and I do hope all the time they would get the budgets to go abroad, and then burst into recognition of people that they need.
Oh, and one more: those French youngters are s**t fast. That's why they are up there too.
Dedicated to N.O.T.,
Excellent post Hartusvouri. And equally true of UK. Here it is old cars, either a historic car, or a twenty year old car with big money spent on engines and gearboxes and dampers.Brits seem to hate homogated small cars, but Elfyn Evans started in a small 1000 Micra which was more basic than R1 type.
Regarding Italy yes, the three faster drivers in national champioship doesn't move from there, I don't know why actually, I don't want to think that they don't want to compare themself with other people that can be faster than them and are pleased by their podium after rallyes they know by heart. But, really I don't know much about them, although I'm italian. I have no interest in national champioship and I won't bother you explaining the reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
But I'm curious about Tempestini. He's shown good pace lately and he's doing a good job both in ERC and in JWRC. But know what? He drives mostly with romanian flag. It has been "raised" in his career with the help of romanian federation (his father has a company there if I remember well, and I think he his somewhat romanian too, but he's italian in a first instance). That is way far from french mentality and way far from golden ages in '70s and '80s. In summary, do not expect italian world champions for near future.
too many words... words words everywhere... keep it simple Hatrsu,,, i am a simple man, that is why i am awesome.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
Agree with Hartsvuori & MJW's posts.
Having seen some coverage of the French Opel Adam Cup, those boys are showing no mercy, they seem to be driving at 10 tenths. I would have liked to see a similar Cup in the UK; I guess Vauxhall aren't interested in rallying. But, a single make series using current cars would be nice - but might not be popular here; as MJW so rightly said.
The most popular rally series in the UK are the Historics - for many British rally fans, the Escort IS rallying.
@AL14
I would like to see albertini and scatolon to try abroad with a solid program and not one-off appearances. An irrelevant question,why a driver to choose adam cup,since opel doesnt get involved in high level on rallying,so less chances for the future.on the other hand peugeot volante......
Me too, I like Albertini, I hope he and Scatolon will have more chances and won't stay in CIR all life long.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
I agree fully with Hartusvuori. Lack of money for Sweden and Finland. Obviously not in Estonia and Norway. And for sure there are good competition in France. I really hope they compete on gravel as well, because otherwise only tarmac isn´t enough being world champion in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
As mentioned above Emil Bergkvist today won Swedish sprint championship in old Astra Kit Car. I think besides PT he´s our coming man. Let´s hope he can bring his own funding and we´ll see.
Risto Immonen was showing his talent to the international audience with a old C2 R2 in JERC till his crash at Azores where his international season finished..
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk
In the Netherlands we have to be very thankfull to the national federation, without their program no rallying talents would have been discovered.
Mats van den Brand seems to be the next hopeful. He won the D-Mack shootout at M-Sport and won an R5 start on a WRC round this year. I hope to see him in the D-Mack Cup at least this year. Then there is Leo van der Eijk who's fast too but there's no money since his sponsor stopped investing. Same story for Timo van der Marel, who had the same sponsor.
Maybe you will see...Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
Albertini was trying one season in Clio R3 European Trophy, but then he has returned home...Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
Tempestini's family is living in Romania for a long time. And Simone is starting with romanian licence from beginning. I dont know how much romanian federation was helping him, but most of the budget is found by his father. And the whole Napoca Rally Academy is not supporting only him, but also other drivers, like for example Florin Tincescu in JERC...Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
I relied on the fact you're so awesome you could see from a glimpse or reading between the first few lines, that it's just another Finnish post choking on bitter tears of years and years of humiliation. But I'll keep it simpler the next time :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Finnish tarmac roads are too fast. Too wide and in too good condition for rallying. If there is one odd road that would suit for a tarmac stage,mit's just one single stretch of road. Not a rally yet. And because of this, Finnish rally cars aren't having option of tarmac spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
I don't exactly have the cost, but Adam Cup cost less than 208 Cup. In France (and I think Germany), it's a full tarmac cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
But it gives you an official drive. Opel did the german championship with Griebel (champion 2013) and Kreim (best junior 2013). This year Griebel will drive JERC with Opel, whereas Bergkivst will drive german championship (Griebel too ?). In France you have an official drive too (Bonato last year, Perry for this season). Unfortunately, Bonato who was ashtoning, has nothing more ... at the beginning there was rumor tha Opel could do a Corsa R5, so it attracts a lot of driver, but now it seems that won't happen ...
Isn't there some kinds of Rallysprint on tarmac ? Of course it's not a rally, but it can be a first contact with tarmac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
Great post by @hartusvuori indeed. Finding the budget will always be an issue... The step from national to international level is too big.
@rallyper, in France they do compete on gravel also. In fact, 4 out of 6 events of this year's 208 Rally Cup are on gravel. On this forum I already explained how French gravel rallies work but here I go again... :) The French gravel rallies are held on 2 days, in general they have 10 stages (5 different), one day with 6, another with 4 stages. It's a concept I really like. On friday afternoon/night there's scrutineering (usually between 17 and 21 O'Clock). On saturday and sunday morning around 6 O'Clock the drivers go out of parc fermé, with their rally-cars, for the first and only recce-run. They do recce in same order as the starting order. At around 10 O'Clock they return for long regroup and service, many drivers watch onboard-footage from their recce during that period. Pacenotes are crucial, there's only one run in recce. On these gravel event illegal recce is nearly impossible for many reasons. So... one recce-run. Then off you go. Sometimes over 20 exact same cars (208 R2 in this case), let's say 15 with the ambition to win, maybe 5 to 10 with the potential to win... That's a competition where I like to travel for, even if the event is 800km away from my home.. :)
The 2 other events of 208 Rally Cup this year are Antibes and Rallye du Var. I think it's fair to say those are the two most technical events of the French tarmac championship, especially Rallye du Var. It's just one corner after another, no need to mention meters between the corners. It's more important to mention on which side of the road you must finish the corner in order to be on the correct line for the one that follows... There you learn to drive efficient, the drivers who look most boring in technical sections are often the quickest.
I think the costs for this 208 Rally Cup (6 events, with an average of 170km SS per event, and some necessary testing) could be easily over 75 000 euros, depending on team, insurance, testing etc... As a "normal" young driver, it's nearly impossible to gather that kind of money.
Ok then, I rememeber it a bit different but apparently I'm not too much informed about Tempestini's story. Thanks for get facts strighter. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
In any case, romanian or italian, I think he has potential, let's see.
Don't overestimate the Estonian economy. We aren't even close to Sweden and Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
At the moment the latest young gun (in Estonia) should be Karl Martin Volver (he will be 16 at the end of February). Last October he signed a deal with ASRT and he will be competing in Peugeot 208 R2. In Sarma Rally he finished 10th overall, second among 2WD (37 seconds behind Ralfs Sirmacis and 15 seconds ahead of Vasiliy Gryazin). He is also entered at Rally Liepaja (national).
Maybe not economical, but interest from public, companys and lately even politicians make it a lot easier than for instance in Sweden. We have companies within carsales and bransch on the whole giving support to everything else but motorsport, well, maybe the ladyboys games, but particulary not rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Talking about tarmac we´ve had some guys winning in Europe latest years like Pontus and Patrik Sandell, but in Sweden they fifteen years ago tried a Championship round on tarmac which ended in an fatal accident killing two spectators. End of story for tarmac in Sweden rallies...
@tommeke_B Looks like a good set up for youngsters in France. Even though it´s not cheap. So money talks even in France, but climate better. Wish Swedish National Authority should have sam go in such matters. But the leaders don´t bather...
Emil Bergkvist will do JERC too.Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
as usual these threads end up everyone mentioning every local driver below the age of 25 as hopeful...
As for the lack of funds as a reason for the finnish decline it is a joke to say the least...
the fact that the finnish lobby of managers stopped feeding the series with nobodies is for the simple reason that Rallying has evolved to the point that teams realised that only talent will do and not underground tactics.
I think the money issue of rallying in Scaninavia has serious competition of rallycrossrx whitch canninbalises its sponsoring funds
I shouldn´t reply on this, but couldn´t avoid let go:Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
If you should stick to facts you would be taken seriously. Now you are so up and down nobody would listen. Comments of finnsih rallydrivers history and contemporary standard not needed.
The only thing you contributes is a laughter or two, now and then.
well the facts are that when the finnish managers were in control we got Rovanperas and sohlbergs and pykalistos...
when the teams started to wake up and threw those nobodies off the cliff we got Loeb and now Ogier...
I approached this topic from a different angle. I am not looking for quantity of Finnish drivers to flock the WRC seats, but I'm worried that the current climate refuses the quality to ever surface. The we will never know thing. I don't want anyone to get a seat based only on money and manager skills. Those two factors however helps to develop the talent and see if it goes anywhere. No money, no drives, no career. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
In other words, the development programmes and what goes in the background for Finnish (or add most of any other rallying nations) drivers doesn't work well in international terms at the moment. Then again, rallying has never been about equal opportunities. The wind blows from different direction now.
Lack of funds is a joke? Start explaning, because no one is laughing.
Lack of funds is the same for every country when it comes to rallying...
did the Finnish grew a money tree during the manager era and it suddenly dried off ?
you are worried that some talents will never surface, well first of all it was always like that. Rallying is an elite rich boy sport for the most part. But your hypocritic sadness finally surfaced... i did not see any Finnish person shedding tears when those useless finnish nobodies were shoved down the throats of the teams by your managers leaving other hopefuls outside of any kind of opportunity... Where were you when that title less "legend" (LOL) Alen pushed his no good son into the FIAT team leaving scandola fighting village events ??
The tides have changed....
now its time for the rest of Europe to take a bath in your bitter tears full of hypocrisy...
I thought we were talking future. Can you please concentrate in the topic?
For your country there is no future in rallying for at least the next 5-10 years...
happy now ?
NOT i think that you should admit that because of management you could see also drivers from france taking chances that dont deserve.the big hope (lol)chardonnet,because of elena or maurin who is not something special and he is not to an appropriate age to start international career but he has the chances for international outings.what i want to say is that you will always find mediocre drivers in the international scene because of having sponsors or appropriate managers.are youa bit biased towards finnish drivers or thays my idea???
NOT´s comment is only here to make others angry. No one should listen to his crap atm.
@nafpaktos: Maurin isn't a young talent, doesn't belong in this topic at all. He never had the ambition of the named young drivers. He's a bit like we have Dennis Kuipers in the Netherlands for example (just faster than Kuipers). Father of Julien Maurin is owner of Groupe Maurin: http://www.groupe-maurin.com They own 51 official garages in the Southern part of France and sell over 20 000 cars per year. About Chardonnet I agree, there are better guys than him.
@NOT: You don't know shit.
Not really (no pun). You make an argument that I thought had no base and when asked, you can't stand behind what you've said.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
I know how you act and what's your role is. I also know that you know about rallying. Sad fact is that your only input has, is and apparently will be that of a barking dog.
Tom yes i agree about what you say about maurin,i mentioned him as a driver who take chances that he doesnt deserve.yaccoo is his major sponsor,does he owns this company?
I'm not sure if Yacco is owned by him/his family. But if not, it's probably part of some business deal. Anyway Maurin proved to be fast in France, and I'm sure that on tarmac his times aren't going to be too bad. But still no doubt that his projects exist because of the people/family behind him. Did you ever complain about Prokop not deserving his chances by the way? For me it's the exact same thing... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
And a great name too! Very evocative.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14