Give Hamilton a strong team-mate and the scandal is guaranteed. It can't always be the other one at fault.
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Give Hamilton a strong team-mate and the scandal is guaranteed. It can't always be the other one at fault.
Malicious intent was very clear. You go back one lap earlier where Vettel was in a similar situation and he had the smarts to go wide across the kerb. Rosberg could have done the same and carried on to fight another lap with Hamilton. He didn't and he knew exactly what he was doing. You're underestimating these drivers and exactly how good they are if you think they can't judge things like this to within the inch. Rosberg is one of the best drivers in the world and he knew full well that his wing was going to be damaged when he hit Hamilton's wheel, but he also knew that, no matter what happened, he probably wasn't going to come off as bad as Hamilton with a punctured tire. Yes, there was a minor chance that he could have come out the worse but that was very unlikely given the angle he was slicing the wheel at.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
It's clear to me now that Rosberg is a dirty rotten cheat. The Monaco incident was clear enough but this one makes it 100% clearer again. The FIA must act on this and so must his team. This kind of behavior is bad for the sport. Not alone that, but Rosberg has now sent out a message that he intends to use his car as a weapon for the remaining 7 races. It could result in someone getting killed or worse so he must be sanctioned. With 8 races to go there was no need for this to be done. He's made it clear that he knows in a straight fight he can't beat Hamilton on pace so he is going to resort to dirty tricks. Lets face it, he hasn't actually beaten Hamilton all year really except for Austria where Hamilton beat himself by messing up in qualifying. He may have beaten him in Silverstone but given Hamilton's pace at the time Rosberg retired it's difficult to see Rosberg having kept him behind.
Anyway, all that aside, action needs to be taken here or it brings the sport into disrepute. And lets face it, F1 is dying as a sport as it is. Television viewing figures are down, half the stalls are empty when you go to races. I normally go to 7 or 8 races a year myself and I haven't bothered this year because seeing Vettel win 9 races in a row just killed my love for the sport somewhat. At least he's getting shown up this year. Action needs to be taken by the FIA now on this.
I agree that Hamilton can't deal with fast team mates well, but in this one off incident I struggle to blame Hamilton for anything really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I don't think Ben is getting at this (racing ;) :p) incident in particular but at the whole intra-team two-faced whinging.
... From both of them in my view :)
True. Both are ruining Mercedes chances to have won every race. This is when a team that runs team orders would probably have more constructed success.
The fans call for out and out racing which is fun, but you then have to take this sort of thing on the chin.
With the exception of British GP qualifying, Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes on track. Hamilton is damn fast. I give him that. But does often speak things he shouldn't have spoken. For example, Hamilton claims that Rosberg deliberately hit him. Based on Toto Wolff's terse comment, it appears not to be true. Rosberg is also guilty of this. He should have at least acknowledged his error.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Really? I'd say more they can't deal with him. Thus they have to resort to unsavory tactics in order to beat him, just like Nico has done and Fernando did in 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
That's a flawed argument. Even though Vettel went off track in the same place, Vettel went off track for completely different reason. Vettel carried too much speed in the straight and then braked too late. I saw smoke coming from his rear wheels. He was basically out of control. If he did turn, he wouldn't be anywhere near to damage the car in front because Vettel was something like a car length behind. The NBC commentators mentioned outbraking his car as well, when they saw it. Turning car would have probably spun it at that point. Rosberg's incident with Hamilton a lap later was a completely different scenario. Rosberg was following Hamilton closely and was in control of his car. Once we have established the fact that Vettel's off track excursion was completely different problem, what we end up with is that a Rosberg-Hamilton incident is one of too many of this type we have seen in open wheels. It was Rosberg's error, and he deserves to be spanked, but I don't see a clear intent. How can it be a clear intent if Rosberg was just as likely to damage his own car and end the race right there?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Some fluctuation in TV viewership figures have always existed. A drop in TV viewership does not mean much IMO. If it means F1 is dying, then it must have started at least 20 years ago. In 1994 journalists were saying that refueling was added that year presumably because of boring 1992 and 1993 seasons. Vettel did to F1 what Schumacher did in 2000-2005. F1 has always had years of utter domination followed by years of intense competition.Quote:
Anyway, all that aside, action needs to be taken here or it brings the sport into disrepute. And lets face it, F1 is dying as a sport as it is. Television viewing figures are down, half the stalls are empty when you go to races. I normally go to 7 or 8 races a year myself and I haven't bothered this year because seeing Vettel win 9 races in a row just killed my love for the sport somewhat. At least he's getting shown up this year. Action needs to be taken by the FIA now on this.
And 2013 was an odd and atypical year when no one besides Red Bull wanted to continue developing a car platform that will be scrapped in a few months. Ferrari was out of game after August, and so were all other teams who could possibly take on Vettel. So a drop in TV viewership was more than expected IMO. If anything, this year will boost F1 popularity. We have all the ingredients. Intense competition for the title fight, drama, and now a "scandal". However, the biggest surprise of this year is the new talents who took F1 by storm: Ricciardo, Bottas, Kyat, Bianchi, etc.
That "F1 is irrelevant, spec, or dying due to bad engine sound, etc" has become some kind of a meme on web sites dedicated to general automotive discussions, usually posted by people who clearly have not followed the current season.
True. My above statement doesn't reflect what I was thinking really.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I should have said he doesn't deal with pressure that well
2007, 2008 and this season (probably some in between I have forgotten) he seems to feel the pressure and for whatever reason he seems to make mistakes or be involved in incidents.
I think his talent deserves another title or maybe two, but I can honestly see him not winning another. I mean however its happened Lewis is falling out a championship hunt that I certainly thought he would dominate.
It seems to me he just feels pressure easily and has a tendency to make errors and get involved in on track and off track trouble.
For the record I hope he finds a way of storm the season end and taking this title.
Well, he honestly always seems to be on the side of bad luck or a cheating teammate. Hopefully his luck will change over the remaining 7 races. I think this year Lewis has made two mistakes, Silverstone qualifying which was 100% his own fault and Austria which was 100% his own fault. It might seem like he was feeling the pressure on Saturday with him running wide in different corners but that was caused by glazing on his brakes rather than errors he made himself so what seems to be a running wide might not always be that straight forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I am with you in that 100%
I too really hope he wins this title
And one final note, I'm okay with someone that has made two mistakes winning the championship. I'm not okay with someone who cheated twice and got away with it to his benefit winning the championship. I genuinely didn't mind who won the WDC this year at the start of the season because I really liked Nico and I really liked Lewis. From Monaco onwards I have been in Lewis's camp though and, to be honest, if it were Lewis that had cheated I'd be really disappointed in him as it's his integrity which endears me to support him now. After what we saw yesterday, I'm pretty confident that were it not for Lewis having difficulties in qualifying over the last number of races which put him on the back foot that we would have seen a lot more of this sort of thuggery from Nico.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
TBH it's posts like this and fans accusing the FIA of bias that brings the sport into disrepute much more than the incident does. Because when you are anyone else takes the point of view that you KNOW Nico intentionally caused the accident, you are overstepping the bounds of reality. You cannot know what Nico's intentions were any more than I can know your thoughts.
But in this and other posts you attach that suspicion as fact, and it just fuels the fire. Then you further embellish your opinion to the point you claim Nico is going to use the car as a weapon and might kill someone. That is no more fair than me claiming that since you are upset you are a danger to people in your work place or home, since IMO (opinion not stated as fact) you are more emotional than the situation warrants, which could results in erratic actions.
Read your post and reverse the situation. If I stated that strongly that Lewis caused the accident on purpose and tried to kill Nico, would you find it a reasonable thing to state?
I think Nico was the primary cause of the accident, and probably could have avoided it. But I think it was just that, and accident when racing hard. And I've said from the season start I think Lewis is the better driver on track, and would overcome the early points deficit. But at this point letting Nico get in his head is the worst thing he can do. And for any Hamilton fan to give up and join his battle of words, I feel they are making the same mistake Lewis is.
Actually I never stated that Nico tried to kill Lewis, nor did I ever think it. You just fueled that fire yourself. But on that note, no, I don't believe he was trying to kill Lewis.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
And I never said that the FIA are biased either, I'm just saying that they lack the balls to do anything, the same way that Davidson didn't have the balls to come out and say that he felt Nico did it on purpose.
If you really feel this way, then you must feel that Schumacher was innocent in Jerez 97? There is no proof that he swerved into hit JV intentionally, you can't possibly know what he was thinking at the time, you're just looking at on-board footage. Rosberg swerved into Hamilton, much the same way Schumacher swerved into JV. If you believe one to be innocent, surely you believe the other to be as well?
Wouldn't be too surprised if it wasn't that evil German cheat who went and glazed our Ham's brakes the night before in order to pip him to pole on Saturday! :devil: :andrea:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Nor did I claim you said Nico tried to kill Lewis. I simply stated that your comment about Nico intending to use his car as a weapon was out of line. And to clarify my reason for stating that, refer to your own post:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
There is little if any grey area in the above. You are accusing a driver (for those that have forgotten another human being) of malicious intent. Understanding that there is bad blood between the drivers, we know there is tension there. But really that above statement would be like me claiming that I know you will intentionally beat your ex girlfriend because I can give an example of a time you were angry with her. It's a malicious statement claiming to understand the intent of a person when in fact we can't know the intent of that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
For the record, if Nico had in fact admitted to causing or allowing the collision, it would completely change my point of view. But I'm not going to condemn him based on a maybe, or any speculation.
Did the FIA lack balls in handing out penalties for the Spygate scandal, or Flavio's race fixing? They certainly didn't lack balls after the Jerez incident either. Like many I often don't agree with the FIA decisions, but in black and white cases supported by evidence hard to dispute they do act, and often hand out very harsh penalties. Personally in the case of Jerez I think it was intentional, but feel absolute evidence was lacking in proving that without any doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
But as an example, do you think Alonso should be harshly treated by the FIA for running into the back of Vettel at Spa? He tried to put his car where it wouldn't fit, and impacted Vettel from behind with his wing running into Vettels tire. Yet I've seen no claims that he has shown he will use his car as a weapon and could kill someone. I wonder why that is?
Read your post and reverse the situation. If I stated that strongly that Lewis caused the accident on purpose and tried to kill Nico, would you find it a reasonable thing to state?Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
Read your own post please before asking me to reread mine. If you're going to make a statement like the above after asking me to reverse the situation and not expect me, or anyone, to take from it that you are suggesting that I implied Nico tried to kill Hamilton then you need to be more careful in your phrasing. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the point of the above statement was now. Feel free to clarify.
He's a human being that already cheated in Monaco and, yes, I am accusing him of malicious intent. As for the beating of the ex girlfriends remark, I can't ever possibly think of a situation where someone beats another human being without intent. It's simply not in the same context. We're discussing something that a driver did to another driver. The question is whether there was intent. The answer is yes, there was, and that was clearly obvious from the moment it happened. Give me a logical explanation for the second turn of the wheel. Don't give me a "He couldn't have known he would hit Hamilton's tire" excuse. Rosberg is one of the best drivers in the world and knows exactly where his front wing is. Give me a proper explanation for turning in the second time please.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I'll tell ya what, if the FIA turn around and punish Rosberg I'll retract my statement that they lack balls. There have been many situations throughout the years, Monaco this year with Rosberg being one of them, where they have turned a blind eye. If they take action on this, then I'll retract my statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
As for the Alonso incident, I don't believe he intentionally hit Vettel. Why would he? Unlike Nico, he had nothing to gain. It was a rare mistake from the most complete driver on the grid. We've already seen that Nico is predisposed to cheating this year and he gained 18 points in the championship lead because of what happened. He had plenty to gain from Lewis's exit. Plus once Alonso committed there was noway out for him. Nico always had a way out.
I think zako85's explanation for the second turn was good enough.
I've seen footage of the incident and it looks just like that.. like a racing incident.
However, the way Hamilton heard what he wanted to hear from whatever Rosberg told him and ran with it to media... I find that pathetic.
I think many of us would like to see the transcript from that conversation as different versions or interpretations are being published by the media. I couldn't comment with any certainty or condemn a driver or team member for their statements because I haven't heard reliably what was said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Would you mind sharing the transcript to allow us to discuss this a little more fairly?
Anything else? maybe some tea and cookies?
I'd rather keep it on topic.
I said it in another thread & repeat here. It may be 85 again. it's never senna vs Prost. They won 15 out of 16 races until Suzuka. Daniel has won 3 so don't be surprised if he does a Prost over Mansell & Piquet to Lewis & Nico. Lewis, like Mansell, has more natural speed & a crowd pleaser with his spectacular wins but often hampered by inconsistency. Rosberg, on the other hand, is scoring points regularly albeit lacking a stellar drive.
Most people applauded Lewis for making a Champions decision in defying team order in Hungary. I supposed this is a champions reply from Rosberg, albeit clumsy.
By the way , Michael did admit that he turned in on Jacques , framing it with "Deliberate , but instinctual ."
This has nothing in common with that .
Lewis assumed Nico would back out of it , and assumed he had the corner , and took his normal racing line .
Based on the last race , where he squeezed Nico , and Nico relented , it was a reasonable assumption .
But , had he heard Nico say that he had learned a lot from the last race , where his team mate had felt aggrieved at his dismissal of team orders , and he had forced his team mate off , he might have known Nico was going to stiffen his defence and push his own agenda .
Lewis , in one interview I read , dismissed Nico's feelings completely , saying they had had a meeting before the race where he couldn't believe Nico was still upset about that last race before the break .
Nico felt betrayed by his team when there was no sanction , and , in fact , out right backing of the betrayal .
This buoyed Lewis , despite his team's insistence that he was destroying his tires , that he was right in his decision .
Merc is responsible for letting this go too far .
But , it's very entertaining to watch .
I hope Lewis understands the point that Nico was making here .
He's going to be there , so don't just assume he's backed out of it .
They've had some really good wheel to wheel in the past , and we may be in for a lot more if they can just put the politics aside .
The stewards had them both responsible , and I think that at the end of the day , that's really the best conclusion .
They need to sort it out on track , and bring both cars home .
A lot of sense as usual BagwanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
People tend to have a short memory. Fans & commentators lauded Lewis when he fended off Rosberg with obvious aggressive moves in Bahrain. Nobody seemed to bother Nico showing his dissatisfaction in the post race interview. Lewis was that much better even Nico is on fresh tires. It may have ended in tears had Nico not lifted. Then there was the call in Sepang in 2013. Lauda's right. It's not appropriate to make such a risky move early in the race; however, it's about time Nico decides what's best for himself with 7 race left.
I have rewatched the incident, Lewis knewed quite well that Nico was on the outside and had superior speed hence he let his car drift out and nearly forced Nico off track. Nico saw this and backed down but to late. Lewis on the radio: Ohhh he hit me, he hit me me me.
A racing incident but I´m not so sure the fault was Nicos.
A lot of people simply hate Lewis or hate Nico and that influences their view. I like both of the Mercedes drivers and hated to see this whole thing happen at all. As such, I think I can look at the video and have an unbiased view. I also have a little experience in a race car, not that it matters, but I understand how some of this stuff works.
I was a big fan of Keke and really wanted to see his son succeed. Some of you might remember (or not) that I was willing to give Nico the benefit of the doubt after Monoco, and I did not want to believe what I was seeing yesterday.
Why would you crank the steering wheel toward your teammate unless that's where you wanted to car to go?
No matter how you look at it, there is no getting away from the fact that Nico cranked the wheel over hard toward Lewis, when all he had to do was crank left and go around the next corner, or at least over the curb and avoid a collision. While this doesn't prove Nico hit Hammy on purpose, there is no doubt Nico did absolutely nothing to avoid the collision.
Backing up a bit, Nico has gone off the track a few times (aside from Monoco) in qualifying this year. Once was Hungary, and there was another incident where I can't remember the track. In both instances, there was none of the weird back and worth sawing of the steering wheel like there was when Nico went off at Monoco. It looked weird at the time, but now that I have less faith in Nico's sporting ethic, I think he drove down the escape road on purpose and the flailing of the steering wheel was just theatrics to sell the notion he had made a mistake instead of a cold, calculated cheat. He wanted the car to look out of control.
Maybe the most telling sign is that the team was so visibly upset with Nico. They can't exactly come out and say Nico punted Hamilton on purpose, but they also did not hide their displeasure. In the heat of the moment they were very definitely angry with Nico, and it was only hours after the fact that they were saying Hamilton misinterpreted Nico. It was only hours after the fact .... hours after everyone had calmed down, that Mercedes tried to smooth this over and make Nico look less at fault.
But again, let's leave emotion and conjecture out of it. Let's not try to say we know what Nico was thinking. I just want to know why he pointed the car at Hamilton's car unless that's exactly where he wanted it to go.
Bingo! If he can explain this then I'd happily put this down to a racing incident. Unfortunately, the thing is that, the only explanation that stands up to scrutiny is that he wanted to take Hamilton out of it and did so rather successfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
If the tail end is stepping out at that point, the car would be trying to spin clockwise (when viewed from above). The way to save the car would be to turn into the slide (point the car where you want it to go). Instead, Nico turned the other way, into Hamilton (point the car where you want it to go).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
In the end, I can't think of an instance where you would do anything but point the car where you want it to go. As such, I also don't believe Nico was trying to slot in behind and misjudged it. He pinched Hamilton so hard going into the first corner that they banged wheels. Right there would have been enough reason to back out and try again later. If you are so close to your teammate that you hit wheels, why would you not save the situation by backing out and live to fight another day? Why push a bad position, especially with your teammate ... unless, that is, a collision was what you wanted to begin with?
I would love to be able to find an excuse for what Nico did, but I just can't. I believe a lot of the people defending Nico watched the video from outside the car and made up their minds then. The really damming evidence is Nico's in car camera and the amount of lock he put into the steering wheel. Why would you need to apply that much right lock to go around the next left hand corner? Why turn right when left would take you away from the collision, unless the collision was exactly what you wanted?
You're right, Lewis should have had his eyes glued to the mirror in case the car behind wanted him to get off the racing line mid corner after braking from over 200mph! Haha... Watch it again and see if you can find anything else Lewis did wrong, I'm off to rub some Ibuleve gel into my sides. Bless you Mia, you don't half entertain. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
Yes. This was "deliberate, but premeditated."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Why else would Nico take aim on Hamilton's car? Did he think turning into Hamilton would avoid the collision?
I am willing to be wrong on this if someone can explain to me why Nico had to use nearly full lock toward Hamilton's car unless he was trying to cause a collision.
Totally agree. They should have made them take turns until both championships were out of the other team's reach, and then let them go after each other.Quote:
Merc is responsible for letting this go too far .
Bruce McLaren was smart enough to play the game that way in the Can Am championship. Their advantage was so large that he and Dennis Hulme would take turns to the point everyone called it "The Bruce and Denny show." As long as McLaren was alive, no one could touch them.
Mercedes now has a similar advantage, but they let everything get out of control and I believe the situation is now irretrievable. There is simply no way for Mercedes to make it up to Hamilton. No way. They can't give him points. They also can't do anything to Rosberg since he is 30 points into the lead, or at least they would be crazy to. Hamilton is going to stay pissed and Rosberg knows he can punt Hamilton any time it suits him.
All Mercedes can do now is tell them not to hit each other, because that worked so well yesterday, right?
What do you do if you are Mercedes? If you lay down the law ..... even if you could possibly force them to play to team orders, Hamilton is still going to feel like he has been cheated, and Rosberg knows he can do what he wants and the team's hands are tied. I think all Mercedes can do now is tell them to behave and then wait for the next collision to happen, which will probably be on the first lap of the next race.
I can not see any possible scenario that keeps these two together at Mercedes next year. I can see Hamilton going back to McLaren, and Hulkenburg taking the second Mercedes.
This is the Lewis who barged his way through the field at Hockenheim a month ago we're talking about... everyone said it was a great drive, even though in more than one occasion, had somebody else not taken evasive action, his race would have been over! It was a misjudgement in this case... I can't see anything else but Rosberg thinking he was going to slot in behind, but Lewis didn't jump ahead the way Nico expected.
As for those saying this will bring the sport into disrepute... I'd bet that many were Lewis fans who before Spa were loving the prospect of these cars touching at some point, as long as the outcome was favourable! It's exciting, unpredictable... and will go down to the wire, maybe even with 3 drivers! Bernie must be loving it!
Disclaimer... I would be happy to see Rosberg, Hamilton or Ricciardo win... big fans of all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwegian Blue
What did people like you do before the internet? Talk too loudly in rotisserie pubs at the weekend I s'pose....
By the way you were probably grasping for "ON more than one occasion"
May want to keep an eye your punctuation too, dolts like me got a short attention span, y'know?
Thanks for the Disclaimer, the Internet wants you know that your opinion is oh so important.
Hey what happened to iaon BTW? Did he succeed in his mission of lowering the general IQ of the Internet and turning a once decent forum into the under-populated confederacy of dunces it is now?
Just sayin...
WowQuote:
Originally Posted by Mifune
Same back at ya pal. I love you too
ioan is still pushing his broken down Espace through the Alps with no 3G. I'm still trying to work out if I miss him or not? :p
Of course we do. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Look at Nico's left hand.
http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/at...07%20PM%29.jpg
Doc , I just watched it again , from Nico's perspective .
I must say it clearer to me now .
But , I don't agree with you .
Nico did exactly as he said , and if his team mate had allowed room , and not just assumed that Nico would back out , his turn of the wheel would have carried him very squarely around that corner .
Only a moment before , he had had his front wheel right beside Lewis's sidepod , so there is no way Lewis didn't know he was there .
And this is the most important point I want to make in this , and one I believe that the stewards understood :
Nico was alongside Lewis mid-corner , and , at that point Nico prepared to travel through the corner , lifting to make it around , which he would have clearly been able to do had Lewis not cut across .
Lewis assumed Nico had backed out , but as he had clearly not prepared for the fact that Nico , who was alongside him might opt to stay there , he drove through because he had too much speed to leave Nico enough room anyway .
These guys have good reactions, better than us, but even they can't negotiate a corner like that while looking backwards. Hamilton expected Nico to back out because he should have done just that. Nico was the only driver who had control over how that incident played out as he was behind. He should have given Lewis room knowing he was on the racing line, in front, and on the inside of the first part of the corner. Nico messed up, not deliberately, but we all face consequences from our bosses when mistakes are made. I'm sure he's had his knuckles smacked.
Look at the apex and where both cars are pointing :devil: :andrea:
Could it be ham is also turning right a bit? trying to avoid nico? After a bit of a squeeze? :p :sailor: