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2010 wasn't competitive. Vettel and Webber should've had a similar season to what the MB drivers are having this year. They were terrible that year. Even Hamilton choked in the last 1/4, and Alonso was sloppy in the first half of the season. It was an entertaining battle. But both 2010 and 12 were weak titlesQuote:
Originally Posted by zako85
Spare me :stareup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Vettel has fans?
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
I like sebastian, still do. He is one of the greatest driver on the F1 grid. Some people like to bash him, they have their agenda. I pitty them.
I agree Mia. He is one of the best 3 drivers on the grid. You don't win 4 titles by luckQuote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
Yes, a couple of these ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
http://www.idleengineers.com/wordpre...011/12/Fan.png
;)
Just curious as to who you would consider the other two drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I think Seb is still a very good driver, but also had the luxury of the dominant car. With Webber in the other RB, team domination was easy. I still don't quite know where to rate him though, as now Ricciardo is beating him on a regular basis. I don't think I could rate him top 3, but maybe top 6-8.
I actually see Seb as being very similar to Lewis. At times he can be super focused and fast on track, but at other times he lets other drivers get into his head and he does some things that hurt him in the long run. But that applies to quite a few drivers, and with the pressure these guys have I can't at all blame them for being human when your every move is watched by such a large group.
I think the love or hate feelings many express about Seb are often common with any driver doing really well for an extended period. It's sad really. I won't make time to bash him or praise him as above all others, and only time will tell where I decide he really falls in terms of total driver talent. But I can certainly agree, you don't win multiple titles on luck alone.
Perhaps after six years of wild success Vettel kind of lost the motivation or the kind of hunger he used to have. Or perhaps, he simply feels disoriented and lost focus?
Just so everyone waiting to bash me can, I rate the most complete drivers currentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
1. Alonso - A fair bit clear of the rest in my opinion
2. Hamilton - He is fast in a good car out front, but also battles hard. Not near Alonso, but still second
3. Vettel - He is fast and has a good way of getting the team around him, like Schumi. He cannot outperform a car like Alonso, but I think he is 3rd best.
For those about to tell me Ricciardo is better cause of this season, I will stop you now. 4 titles won and in the bag and some are ready to say Ricciardo is better. Thats laughable really. He is better this season, or in this car, but he didn't win a race in a Toro Rosso and finish top 5 5 or 6 times and hasn't won 30 odd races and 4 titles.
out of interest
4. Raikkonen - easy to mock him, but last season he was winning races
5. Ricciardo - Moved up some places in my eyes this year.
6. Rosberg - After Nico it becomes less clear.
But you are comparing apples and oranges there, because obviously just because they both raced for the same team at different times does not mean that the cars they drove had the same strengths and weaknesses compared to the rest of the field they raced. So their results are not that comparable. I consider adaptability part of completeness, and we're more than halfway through the season and Vettel lost 30+ seconds to Ricciardo in the Italian Grand Prix despite being faster in every practice and qualifying session. One would've expected a more complete driver than Ricciardo to start outracing him at least by this point of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I get steveaki13's point. But there's a difference between driver's status and their abilities. It's a subtle difference. Vettel's light years ahead as far as status goes. Vettel might not be lucky, in the sense he didn't win 4 titles from the draw of a hat. But he was a bit fortunate to win in 10, when you can make the case Alonso, Hamilton and Webber were genuinely better than him. He was definitely fortunate to win in 12, when Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton were definitely better than him. 13 wasn't that crash hot til some RB political wrangling got involved. He may've got 4 titles, but his value is no more than a driver that's got one, two at best. There's no way anyone's telling me he's better than Mansell, Hakkinen, or some other 1-2 time champs.
It is terrifying to think what Ricciardo could have done with the kind of car Vettel had the last four years. I do like Vettel a lot, and am dismayed by how badly Ricciardo is drumming him. There does not seem to be a good explanation for it.
For most of the time Vettel was performing very well throughout 2008-2013 and that's a long time actually. That's more than being a one-trick pony, because regulations changed a few times during that period. As to why he is struggling in 2014 is another matter - perhaps there is a certain adaptability window for him, as in some things he can't go that well. Räikkönen was performing well up-to-and-including 2007, so that period also included many years, but suddenly hit a ceiling in 2008 and dropped backwards. So these things can happen.
jens, maybe I shouldn't say this out loud but in my post I was rather mocking a certain vettel fan than vettel himself. The fans annoy me much more than the drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
There was no intention on my part to bash anyone, even if we might differ in opinion, which is really at it is.
For the most part I agree with your top six, but right now where Vettel and Kimi fall is somewhat up in the air. I'll be the first to admit I didn't hate Rosberg as well as he has driven early on, but he has proven to be more well rounded than I expected the first year or two. Alonso without doubt is at the top. Kimi is regaining form but still being soundly beaten by Fred, but that is almost expected. Lewis is super fast, but sometimes lets people/things screw with his mental game. On a side on that, I still have hope Lewis will beat Nico this year and overcome his car failures. It may take a little luck as well as his driving skill, but it's still possible.
Right now the Ricciardo/Vettel placements are sort of up in the air. Maybe this car is just more suited to Daniel, but Webber was never really a good gauge IMO for where Vettel was placing. Or maybe it's possible that Daniel is just better, but it will take some time to determine that and see if the current trend continues.
But in any case, unless it's an obvious crazy fanboi with blinders on perspective, I have no intention of bashing anyone if we differ in opinion.
I think it's way too early to say if Ricciardo is better than Vettel, though he's having an amazing season.
This season has lowered my opinion of Vettel a little. I can't recall the last time a world champion was so poor compared to his teammate whilst defending his title. Vettel is in a select group as one of the very few men to have won four WDCs. After this season would anyone not named DJ rate Vettel as the equal of Schumacher, Prost or Fangio? I don't think so.
From forum perspective in a way I like Vettel is so off the radar this year.:p: Looking at the tight title battle, it has clearly heated people up and the Singapore GP thread got banned. In the past years Vettel was consistently the target in these discussions, but now it is good to re-build your career in silence while others are being targeted. :p:
People love to hate, and Vettel was certainly no exception to the rule. The only thing I really wonder is if he is just having issues with the car not being to his style, or if Ricciardo is just actually quicker regardless of the car.
With Singapore just having raced, it reminded me of a couple years back of some in car footage of Sebastian. The camera was aimed at his head/helmet, and you could see his eyes. During one part of the track I timed it and his concentration was so intense he didn't blink for some 45 seconds or so.
How a person could hate that I don't know. But I think often the forum battles are a matter of one extreme attacking the other, and many people assuming that anyone that has any opinion belongs to one of those extremes between being a fanboi or being a hater.
If I listen to the views of insiders, i.e at Sky Sports, then almost everybody says that Vettel is an excellent driver, but doesn't like the car/hasn't adapted to it. The big question now is whether issues with these new reg. cars are a permanent or temporary issue. 2015 will be telling. But Ricciardo is an excellent driver, he possesses the kind of consistency Mark Webber never had. I don't think he would be a pushover. If in 2015 Vettel feels more comfortable in the car, we could see a classic team-mate battle, which would be even more fascinating if this car was able to compete for the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I don't fully buy into the hypothesis that Vettel can't adapt to the new car. In 2008, Vettel sat in a brand new to him car and won the first GP ever for a Toro Rosso, I mean a Red Bull, team and then he went on to score more points than any Toro Rosso, I mean Red Bull, driver ever in history which helped Toro Rosso to beat even its mother team for the first and only time in team's history. Other examples exist. In 2012, Kimi Raikkonen came out of nowhere and joined Lotus after a two year break. Since the beginning of the 2012 season he drove as if he never quit F1 (up to the end of 2013 that is).Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
I kind of start wondering that Vettel is simply not as hungry as he used to be. The 2014 for him, is probably like the 2011 season for Hamilton. Facing the reality of racing in a clearly subpar car and with four titles under the belt, Vettel's morale took a hit. What's the best prize he can win this year? Third place in WDC at best. Perhaps being third means a lot to Ricciardo, but I can see Vettel feel a little disoriented when that's the best he can possibly hope for. An older driver would have just announced a retirement by now. (and we have seen it before)
Hunger is probably a factor alright but I also believe this is what distinguishes the brilliant drivers from the all time greats. There's a particular crop of driver that would never give up no matter what machinery they were given. These are the all-time greats such as Schumacher, Senna, Alonso all of whom I rate amongst the best drivers ever to grace an F1 car. To me, Seb had his chance to prove he was in amongst that crop of drivers this year and he has failed miserably. Believe it or not, even though I'm not a fan of is, I was hoping he'd prove he could do it because I'd hate to see a driver that doesn't belong among the all time greats having earned 4 WDC titles as it completely devalues WDC crown. He has had his chance to pull off a year like Senna 93, Schumacher 98, Alonso 2012 but he didn't. I know reliability has played a factor but he never even looked close. It's disappointing to say the least and he can't really blame driving style, it's up to him adapt to make the best of the machinery at his disposal. A 4 time WDC at his peak should be capable of doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I don't believe it's any hunger or motivation issue at all .
He may be , in effect , running for third place in the game , but one is always compared to one's team mate , and no four time champ doesn't want to dominate in his own team .
What we're forgetting here is that these guys are not far from each other's pace .
The top nine at the last quals were within a half a second .
It's a damn fine line between having a car you like , and feel comfortable in , and having one described as undriveable .
Tiny adjustments make big differences .
Even changing the driver's engineer can rock the driver's boat .
It takes work to get all the ducks lined up , and only one dog in the distance to scatter them all .
What does everyone think now?
I always figured Vettel had plateaued out. It seems the Ferrari move rejuvenated him a bit.
Agreed.
I don't for a second think Vettel is as good as Fred, but he is a very, very good driver. He is in a win-win situation at Ferrari. We all know last years car was a big red dog, so the expectation on him this year is less. His 3rd in Aus was a great effort and proved that he is still a good driver. The only thing that can go badly for him is if Kimi roundly beats him.
In any walk of life you need a change every now and then to revitalise yourself. Credit to Vettel for taking the risk and moving when he did, especially to a dire looking Ferrari.
He must be doing alright.
I don't think it was Seb's Ferrari move was a big a risk as Hamilton's Merc move. At the time, it was known Newey and Prodromou were leaving and Renault were poor. But at the time Lewis let, many said McLaren had the fastest car, and there was no reason at the time to see that change.
However, it wasn't clear to me till recently how competitive Ferrari were going to be. I mean, before I knew about the reputed 80bhp engine hike, my Grand Prix 2 simulation spat Vettel and Kimi out 10th and 11th in the WDC!
I rate Seb as the 3rd best driver in F1.
Let's put it this way. If last year Alonso had doubts about Ferrari being a better prospect than McLaren-Honda, then well, he must be reconsidering this statement!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
I am not saying everything is all rosy and well in Ferrari. Obviously they are still a second off the pace. And they undergone major restructuring last year. But I think Ferrari hit their low point in 2014, just like they did in 2009 after major rule changes, and now it is time to attempt the tough journey of catching up with the leaders. And there is at least some posivites!
Nobody knows, how this co-operation (Vettel-Ferrari) ends up. After 3 or 5 years it may end in disappointment. It may end with no further WDC titles. But sure enough right now I feel excited. Forza Sebastian @ Ferrari! :)
It is great that a simple P3 can make so happy! So 4 titles is not all the end. It is good to have them, but there is more to achievements.:)
Last year at the season opener in Melbourne ALO finished in the dog of a Ferrari exactly the same time off the lead car (some 30 seconds). It is really more telling when you consider who dropped away towards the front, RB and Williams.
All this hype about SEB and his first race at Ferrari, making it look like his feedback and the arrival have immediately helped gain performance. Utter crap. The car is still no closer.
Lets see what things look like in a couple races.
I'd be willing to bet a real resurgence from RB and Williams, especially Bottas
It takes a good driver to finish where he did though. He was best of the rest after the Mercedes one two and it's clear the car is lacking rather than the driver. Kimi had a bad season coming back to a team that wasn't to his liking so Seb coming into a new environment with a new car is a situation I think he's handled quite well. I am sure he's frustrated it's not challenging for wins, but it's one race and he got a podium.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfzmeister
I was looking forward to seeing Fernando back at McLaren, however the package looks poor in race 1. It goes beyond anything the driver can do at present and hopefully they find answers soon. If they don't it will look like the second worst decision of his career and he's far too talented to be at the back. Seb looks like he made the better decision as it stands but there is a lot of work to do.
I am pretty sure last year there was a safety car in that race. Plus Hamilton had retired and Rosberg was unchallenged at the front, so could only cruise.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfzmeister
I am sure you are frustrated Vettel finished third, but don't worry - he won't be on the podium every race, he'll have worse days as well.;)
Good thing for me is that I don't feel the need to bash any drivers. I am just happy when the driver I like does well and don't feel angry about others, whether they succeed or not.
It's very premature indeed to judge the whole season by its first race. The affluent teams will continue car development during the season, and the engine manufacturers will continue the development as well since most of them have a number of tokens left.
Nonetheless, I am willing to believe into the rumor, promoted by all the news articles, quotes and blogs, that the Renault engine development has seriously fallen behind. Ferrari is now going to be clearly the number two engine, and the pace of Ferraris and Saubers confirmed this during the Australian GP. This doesn't mean that Ferrari will always stay in front of Red Bull during the season. Red Bull is an expert at tweaking the chassis, and they have proven in 2013 that they can bounce up from an also run up to a dominant team.
I don't think the season is judged by the first race and it is clear Ferrari will have their hands full with Williams and Red Bull this year. I just think P3 in the opening race is worth celebrating. It is sort of a milestone to put it this way. Good start of a new era.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
It is clear there will be many races, where Vettel won't be on the podium. And can win a race this year only if Mercedes trip over themselves, which can happen though - happen thrice last year with Ricciardo capitalizing.
However, I also would not write Renault off so quickly.
Wasn't there a safety car this year as well? ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Ok, so HAM and ROS cruised at the front together this year.
I am not frustrated that VET made a podium, but am tired of hearing how well things are at Ferrari since he showed up.
I am glad you are the way you are. I'll try to be more like you :-)
It goes to show how low the tifosi's expectations have got. It's all awesome now because vettel is the main favorite to finish 3rd :laugh:. And I'll celebrate some day Alonso's massive achievement of finishing in the same lap as Mercedes :laugh:
Well, unfortunately the situation in F1 is such it is a race for third position for everyone except Mercedes right now. Likewise it was a great achievement for Ricciardo to finish third overall last year. Once the competitive game of F1 has shifted, the goalposts will move as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Thanks.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by kfzmeister
There was a safety car, though in the early laps. Last year it was somewhat later into the race. Never mind, this is not a big issue.
When last year Rosberg was alone at the front, he had less incentive to push as no-one was near. This year Hamilton had to put in an effort to keep Rosberg behind. It is not like Mercedes had a team order after the first lap to "no battling, keep positions and cruise to finish." Like McLaren did in 1998 with their arguable "first corner agreement" though they still lapped the field...
Okay, the Mercedes comparison is not so good since they dominate anyway. I think "things looking good at Ferrari" come down to various things. James Allison has had greater input into this car, and Ferrari has significantly improved the power unit. It is not about whether Vettel showed up or not, it is about how Ferrari as a team has progressed into this year. Plus they have had major management reshuffle.
It was mentioned in the telecast , though , that they are greatly impressed at Seb's feedback , which intimated that Fred's wasn't very good .
Another bonus at Ferrari may be that the two drivers have styles that are similar .
Baggie you are really being very naïve imho .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
You're taking the company line hook line, and sinker, which it is exactly what Ferrari want you to do. For christ sake at least Fred spoke Italian, which gave him a huge advantage in giving 'input'. Please produce a link that supports your hypotheses, because I think all you are doing is parroting what the official line is from the Ferrari propaganda machine, which I am finding quite amusing, on top of being extremely naïve.Quote:
One final note: For Ferrari fans it will be something of a struggle to get a feeling of being close to the project as neither Vettel nor Raikkonen uses social media, particularly Twitter, to share their thoughts. So it will be the official line only, which seems very old fashioned in these days of the “connected” sportsman.
The only question now is how deep you will swim with the bait :laugh:
Oh yes here is a little gem from Ferrari.com the official Ferrari web page.
Seems a little odd that they would forget that Fred won his first race at Ferrari, or did they? :laugh:Quote:
In 2007, Kimi Raikkonen won his maiden outing for Ferrari, an achievement matched only by Juan Manuel Fangio, Mario Andretti and Nigel Mansell.
http://formula1.ferrari.com/en/races...term=401976688
I'm glad that things are looking positive for Seb at Ferrari. Regardless of how the car does long term, it's apparent to me that the team is starting to "gel" much better and is more positive all around. Though it's hard to say any one person created this atmosphere I think to some extent someone like Alonso, and other former team members with his attitude, are toxic for a team. With management expected more out of Alonso due to car being crap, it finally drove him away. And let's face it, Ferrari is the team many if most drivers would want to be at. So I think the changes for the positive are as much who they got rid of as it is who is coming to the team recently.
But I do think both Sebastian and Kimi are more the "team player" types, especially as it applies to the engineers and pit personnel. During race coverage they were speaking of finding Kimi under a car with an engineer, and he commented that it was OK because he used to be a mechanic. They also spoke of Vettel being hands on with the guys in the pits.
Knowing you have team players is never a bad thing for the morale of a team. I hope they keep up their positive energy and create a car that stays to the liking of both drivers. I think both will do well this year if that takes place.
This is not to take anything away from Seb, because I'm glad the team picked him up as he is a skilled driver in the prime of his career. But If you do some serious investigating, as opposed to theorizing about some type of driver chemistry :crazy:, you will realize that Ferrari are improved, because they have invested 22 of their 32 tokens into the PU already, and obviously it is paying dividends, and I think the influence of Allison is starting to show in the drivability of their chalenger. It also is very helpful having the kind of budget that they have, to pay good engineers to develop the car, and two talented drivers driving the things.
In a way I find it quite amusing that Vettel has got a personal "Fan" thread here on this forum.:p: I am unsure, what the initial motivations were, when this thread was created, but discussion has developed pretty nicely here over time!