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Ok, I understand you have a problem only with those who are eligible for benefits......Like if you're poor and don't have a proper job don't come here. It's closed. :p
They're not part of EU. If you accepted us you should learn to cohabitate with us. Whether you like us or not.Quote:
Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this.
Sorry I didn't realise Canada, Australia and America were not part of the EU, so shouldn't have used them as examples for having immigration policies I admired. I should have used an EU country and made it up really.
Its not about disliking a nation of people and I don't know why you keep trying to accuse me of that? There is no point discussing something if my point of view is going to be twisted and misinterpreted so obviously. No thanks.
No. I understand her. Sometimes people have bad days, misunderstand things on purpose to pick up a fight with someone. What's going on gadjo? bad day at work? :laugh:
I'm afraid you'll have a bad day on the forum if you "take of my life" ( regretabila traducere dar stii ce vreau sa spun ).:p
I think gadjo is referring to the free movement of EU nationals.
No matter what kind of immigration policies the EU countries may have, they shouldn't apply to EU citizens.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by odykas
I've spent most of my childhood and my entire adult life as an EU migrant in several EU countries, so this subject obviously touches a nerve...
Of course I might care that my tax money gets wasted! but I certainly don't care where whoever my hard earned tax monies get wasted on comes from, so long as they are all treated equal.
One thing I don't have much time for are the donkeys who fall for the jingo and actually believe that all their (Or -in their minds- their once glorious country's) problems are down to the couple of Johnny foreigners who actually do play the system.
How is this any worse than the couple of national fat cats playing the system in other ways, tax dodging and the likes?
Slack EU immigration policies crippling the UK... Strange how they don't cripple other EU countries with a much larger amount of net EU migration. I'd suggest some of you look elsewhere if you want to solve your problems, not to pint toting demagogues or their fancy ideas:)
Here, here!Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Absobloodylutely!
If you have a problem with the state benefit system then it is not the EUs fault or Johnny Foreigners fault, it is the UK governments fault.
So anyone who has a problem with the free movement of people in the EU has to come up with a different reason. Things like lack of infrastructure, housing, schooling etc to handle extra people is also the domestic governments problem. Other reasons like changing cultural identity and segregated communities are more personal and more difficult to tackle.
EU immigration policies are actually protecting the UK and other countries of the North / Central Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
The ridiculous Dublin 2 regulation prohibits transfer of illegal immigrants from the country they entered EU area to other EU countries.
As as result, most of the burden falls on countries of South Europe, while other EU member states enjoy border protection for free.
I don't think anybody here thinks all the countries problems are down to foreigners so I hope that paragraph wasn't aimed at any one here in particular. I also don't think anybody here supports UKIP and believes they are the solution to all our problems either.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
I would like to point out at no point that I can remember have I even discussed the actual politics side.
I mearly defended peoples right to vote for UKIP and not be called idiots and racists as a sweeping statement.
I agree with certain aspects of all the posts made here.
Watch out Henners, Gadjo is feeling put out by your anti Romanian Rant :confused::p
and Gadjo you better not come over here or Henners and his kind will get you. :D
(No offence intended to either of you :))
It isn't possible to prospectively determine which immigrants will end up being productive and useful and which ones less so.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
The countries you picked have all had very liberal immigration policies in the past, the USA more so than the other two. Much of their success is due to migration. Many American entrepeneurs, scientists and engineers were either first or second generation migrants with little to distinguish them from the rest. The ones who weren't so talented ended up providing cheap labour which helped America's industrial revolution that enabled it to first catch then surpass Europe. Even now legal and illegal migration from Latin America provides American industry at all levels with cheap labour that gives them an advantage, even if they are currently undercut by the Chinese.
Alternatively look at Japan, stagnating after decades, centuries of highly restricted migration. Even they are now looking at relaxing migration regulations to boost the economy.
Yes the British benefit system has loopholes. The amount 'wasted' on foreigners however pales into insignificance compared to that spent wrongly on UK citizens. The benefit system needs to be reformed, not the migration system.
I also find it amusing that British immigration figures include British citizens returning home after living for years overseas, finding that the drop in value of the Sterling since 2007 doesn't allow them to live in as much luxury as they are used to in France and Spain. Keep them out and the British migration problem is solved overnight ;)
For many people who are unhappy about their country or anything in society, immigrants are the easy, almost lazy target. It makes people feel better to think that foreigners are the cause of all of their problems and we would all be much happier if we shut the borders.
This is the politics not of people who believe in racial superiority or who are even overly patriotic, but the opinions of people who are politically illiterate. They worry about the effect foreigners might have on their lives because they are unaware that their job in the Nissan plant at Sunderland might be a direct result of Britain being in the EU.
exactly, and this is the case in pretty much every country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
No, not aimed at anybody here, but certainly triggered in part by your post :)Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
ody aren't your special dawn people any good at controlling your borders ? :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by odykas
They should take a lesson from these donkeys:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26201013
:dozey:
Well that's fine as long as you weren't suggesting I said anything of the kind. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
I didn't say anything anti Romanian but am starting to wish I didn't contribute anything at all as only certain words in my posts are being read in order to form assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I get the impression people think I am anti immigration and this is something I have never suggested whilst explaining earlier on. I can't go through it again but urge you if you feel the desire to read what I wrote earlier in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Your second point was also a point I made earlier too. I said if the benefits system was reformed, it would solve much of the negative immigration issues we face. We have plenty of 'lazy Brits' (I said it again) who milk the system and in vaster numbers than immigrants doing the same. The government need to listen to the protest vote and see what a fair chunk of the population want concerning the benefits system rather than a worse outcome of the dreaded UKIP gaining any power.
Special? We call them Golden Eggs :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
They are just a bunch of useless uneducated mafiosos that unfortunately have gotten too much publicity from the media. A shame for the country.
As regards to immigration, there's no way to stop immigrants travelling by sea as their boats often wreck (sometimes on purpose), so the task for the coast guard is to rescue as many as possible Unfortunately, some of them do not make it....
I hear you Henners
Thats half the problem generally.
People see small quotes or one single opinion on the TV and suddenly everyone is a raging Racist.
Surely people reading these forums get the impression that Henners is a decent bloke and was hypothesising rather giving an opinion!
Not that he really said much in full.
I'm one of those under the impression Henners is all in all a decent bloke. I mean this !Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I simply take issue with quotes like this (an opinion, not a hypothesis):
"I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in."
and simply think this is a pretty typical example (it was from Henners, but could just as well have been from anybody else) of grossly exagerating the negative aspects of immigration.
Well it clearly is an exaggeration but I do think that the major parties need to be seen to be tackling benefit tourism. Part of the reason many have turned to the far-right politics is because the mainstream politicians are perceived to be ignoring this very issue. The politically illiterate don't recognise the benefits of immigration so the isolated cases of foreigners coming over here and allegedly getting a free mansion become deal breakers to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
But I do believe that Henners was much more balanced in his post and subsequent posts than you give him credit for.
The great historian Barbara Tuchman pointed out that before WWI a person could board a train in Constantinople and arrive in London without once showing his passport..Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
And that he could get off the train anywhere along the way and get a job.....
All that had changed just a few years later.
It does not mean it is a "natural " way of things.
@janvanvurpa
......And here I am in the 21st century. Now there's a little problem for that route as Turkey is not an EU member but as an EU citizen I may travel from - let's say - Athens to London even without a passport, just with my ID card and I have the right to work anywhere along the way. When my country will enter the Schengen area things would be even more easier.:p
Naaah.....His comments weren't anti Romanian and I don't have a problem with him as he's one of my fav forumers. :p As you know I don't have a good opinion on my conationals either but at the same time the arrogance of some people (esp. in british media ) towards the easteners gets on my nerves.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
I'm not afraid as I'm sure you'll be there to defend me. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Thanks Jon :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Yes I was exaggerating to a degree with my example Donkey quoted but it's also truthful in some cases and I think this is something voters want to see tackled. The media do stoke the fire by publishing extreme examples, but the fact of the matter is these examples should not exist in the first place and its our government who have created a situation that can be exploited. I am not blaming foreigners for coming here and taking advantage because I think anybody would want the best for their family and would do the same if it offered a better life. I can only speak from the point of view of a British tax payer though who partially picks up the tab.
The benefits system in this country has got completely out of hand IMO. This is largely down to UK born citizens and I live in an area that see's this type of mentality every day. People who have been out of work for 10 plus years and are comfortable in the system because no job will replace what they once had. I know a guy through a family member of my wife's that hasn't worked for 18 years because he fell into depression after losing his job in the steel works. There are jobs around but they pay £40 a week less than he can get on benefits. He used to fake his illness at every assessment and spent every day in the pub or spent weekends at his new caravan in West Wales. He had a new conservatory fitted last summer and goes on the 6 Nations rugby tour every year. He worked for friends cash-in-hand doing roofing and openly bragged about it. He's one of the happiest guys I've met and now has been shopped 'thankfully'. He now has a job and is slightly worse off than he was a few months ago and feels hard done by.
This is the problem! People have no incentive to find work in many cases because the benefits system is the easier route. We can't blame people from other countries within the EU coming here to take advantage of that and I was never laying the blame there. The government need a reform in the system, close these silly loopholes for claims going abroad and squeeze the people who are stuck in the rut. I know its easier said than done and there is no quick fix, but our present government appear to be putting far too much effort into aiding the rich and not enough into tackling the issues that are affecting the average tax payer giving away a third of their wage every month. We are now in a situation where people are protesting by voting for UKIP and that is very very worrying indeed! They need to wake up. :)
PS: Gadjo and Donks are amongst my fav's here too ;)
Its also dead-end politics given that the demographic that is most xenophobic and therefore likely to vote for UKIP, skewing mainstream politics to the right is over 65 and will by definition die out over the next couple of decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
One hopes there will be a strong swing to the centre again over time as there will be little to gain for the political parties over time in courting the right wing vote.
But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?
They can't avoid enthropy unless permanent big walls are built, and I don't see them lasting for ever if they were built either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
p.s. @Henns: big donkey hug :kiss: :sailor: I really wasn't getting at you personally or at the rest of your posts, just at the link between inmigration and the benefits system. It's one of my pet peeves, similar to newspapers mentioning the race or origin of a criminal as an epithet only when they're not local. :)
The very people who are voting for UKIP are the same as would move to the Costa del sol or Palmanova, buy an apartment and work in a bar to get by, not realising that that would make them EU migration workers. Check out the stats on the number of British expats living and working elsewhere in the EU and then tell me there is an immigration problem in the UK.
On many issues like taxation I guess they do, but I think the swing towards being accepting of foreigners in those who are 40 or below is permanent. I don't see people in this demographic changing their attitude much but I might be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
European elections: Nationalists look to build alliances
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-27611934
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...eets_beppe.jpg
Hard to tell who's the biggest clown......
best thing is people supposedly vote people to be accountable and not to waste EU resources...
A list of the euroskeptic parties in Europe.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bo97JIjCUAIUQkC.png
I would add Beppe Grillo to the above list.
I think the main problem is that people don't vote in these elections or they just don't take them seriously enough and that's why we have these aberrant results.
Look at UKIP... 3.1% in national parliament (if odykas is not making up statistics :p) and 26.8% in the european parliament. It looks like the british are thinking... we don't want these idiots in our parliament but let them f*** around at Brussels... or something along those lines. Of course the most annoying thing is that then they go on and bitch and moan about the EU. The question is, are they really expecting UKIP to do any meaningful work in the european parliament? It seems they do their best to sabotage the UE and then complain the UE doesn't work.
Now, I only used the british as an example. Most of the countries in the UE 'behave' the same way.
I live in Romania and my POV is that this country doesn't belong to the UE... just because it's not up to its standards... and the worst part we're really working half-assed to get there. There's just no will here to achieve anything. So when I see the result for the european elections in this country and all the buffoons we are sending to the european parliament I am really ashamed. Whenever I cross the borders of the UE I feel like telling every people I meet I am sorry... but then I remember they all do the same thing.
The european elections are some sort of political eurovision
No offence but Mircea Diaconu is not a buffoon but an excelent comedy actor. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
A map of populist parties, by The Economist.
http://cdn.static-economist.com/site...1_EUM910_1.png
lol. Even on this poll we're the last. :laugh:
I'd love to see the definition of populist and make sure it's not something used to deliberately marginalize anybody not belonging to the current political establishment.
the "caste", as the indignant bolivarian revolutionaries in Spain ("We can") call them :andrea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Yep, kick 'em out, the trojan trolls ! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben