Opel's Rally Comeback

You mean like this: https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/may-...3--12-12-.html ? And that wasn't even the fuel igniting, just the hot exhaust.

Due to the instant-pull and low gravity it is entirely possible to make it really fast. Adding some throttle-regulated sound is another possibility, it's not like current (turbo) R2 cars are exactly loud, same for most R5s. Range is the most funny argument of all, already now you have 20-30 km stage and then easily 1 hour of waiting. Stage distances between service are usually on the order of 60 km as well.

Seriously you people sound like old grannies arguing how this new internet thing is all wrong. Case in point here "proper rallying" for some people is RWD escort on a gravel stage. That might be fun to watch but it does draw manufacturers money, huge crowds or many new young drivers.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

How often will they have to replace the batteries too keep the performance at their peak?

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Probably a lot less than you change transmission or engine components. Note that battery degradation affects mostly capacity which does not matter as long as you have enough to finish the stage, while degradation of mechanical parts on normal car directly affects performance.

What a bullsheet.....I'm already amazed over the horribly loud noises coming from E-motor....and no info about vehicle dry weight...should be on a pair to Mitsu evo10 gr.N...at least....
And agree with Mirek-who will prevent the fire when the car will start to burn?? The crews will need special firefighter license...the future looks really interesting & thrilling...

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Originally Posted by mknight

You mean like this: https://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/may-...3--12-12-.html ? And that wasn't even the fuel igniting, just the hot exhaust.

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You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel.

And yes, I am very sure people won't like to spectate this thing. When spectating on stages you can hear a lot of people talking about electric cars and at least here I have never ever heard anything positive regarding them and rallying. Nobody wants that except the politicians who create pressure on the manufacturers who afterward pretend that it's a great thing. It's all one gigantic hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Seriously you people sound like old grannies arguing how this new internet thing is all wrong. Case in point here "proper rallying" for some people is RWD escort on a gravel stage. That might be fun to watch but it does draw manufacturers money, huge crowds or many new young drivers.

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It may sound old granny talk to you, but EV’s simply aren’t ready for motorsport. If manus, and the always well intentioned public opinion, starts favoring their rally use it’s not hard to imagine that sport authorities will be pressured to make radical changes to the events format (already in their PR Opel is admitting that “organizers must design their schedule accordingly” to recharching needs). Having even smaller sprint rallys and endless service breaks just to cope with EV’s standards won’t certainly make our sport more attractive.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Having even smaller sprint rallys and endless service breaks just to cope with EV’s standards won’t certainly make our sport more attractive.

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I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

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To be fair, they'd have been right! I'm open to electrics, but rallies shouldn't be watered-down any more than they already are...

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel.

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Lithium-ion batteries cannot be extinguished with current technology; the only current solution is to throw a burning vehicle into pool of water (google the burning BMW i8 in Netherland, or simillar situation with the E-motobikes on the Moto GP few weeks ago...). I can not imagine a burning E-rally car in the middle of the stage....

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Originally Posted by the sniper

To be fair, they'd have been right!

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But we're still here babbling about

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I bet if you had told someone during RAC Rally 1985 (with a crazy overnight itinerary) that 30 years later rallies are run during office hours for two and a half days, they would have thought the same.

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And they would have been right. Rallying is not more attractive than in 1985. And electric rallying will probably be even less attractive.

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Originally Posted by Jarek Z

And they would have been right. Rallying is not more attractive than in 1985. And electric rallying will probably be even less attractive.

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Had rallying continued like in 1985, it wouldn't exist no more. And same will happen if rallying won't adopt changes.

I wonder if people who say that it's a good idea at least ever saw an electric race car by their own eyes.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

But we're still here babbling about

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Yes, but there are much less fans than in 1985... TV doesn't even want to show rallying anymore...

Regarding electric racing cars, have you seen this:
https://www.facebook.com/ClubGranTur...9033970477798/

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Had rallying continued like in 1985, it wouldn't exist no more. And same will happen if rallying won't adopt changes.

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Or maybe if it continued with the same formula it would be more popular today. The truth is, no one knows. Do you have any data to support your quote?!

Like the F1 promoters already figured out, the top motorsport categories will also have to look at other alternatives which dont completely alienate the existing fanbase. I hope the WRC does the same.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You didn't get the point which is that extinguishing burning batteries is whole different game than extinguishing burning fuel. .

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Yes I noticed that all the burning Polos (and Fabias before that) were easily extinquished.. just like Breen's C3 in Turkey last year.

Sure I agree that electric race cars should make sound (connected to throttle position). But apart from that it is entirely possible to make them spectacular. How spectacular they will be depends entirely on the rules.

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Originally Posted by Francis44

Or maybe if it continued with the same formula it would be more popular today. The truth is, no one knows. Do you have any data to support your quote?!

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True. All I can say is that already in early 1990's with the economic depression many teams struggled with expenses and this lead into some rule changes leading into cutting costs like limiting recce length, inserting liaisons with no service or limiting changing of big parts such as transmissions to only night breaks. And many similar rules have gone forward to cut the costs, to keep the manufacturers in the game, because in the end it's them who pay for this. The cars themselves may be more expensive than ever, but many things around them are done cheaper.

I'm not saying full electric is the future, but it's an option that should be explored. The manufacturers aren't willing to put money on the current rally cars as they are for a long time. Of course, historic rallying will thrive as long as there's something to burn in their engines.

We must also accept that the sport has always changed and it will change again to keep alive.

Problem is that we can´t kill R5 (and others below it)
so those "WRC E" cars must be quicker than current R5

Speed is not problem but traveling distance without very heavy "batteries" still is.

I own plug-in hybrid which has 300kg batteries, it goes about 20km in full gas before batteries are empty. Solution for longer range is not cheap, yet.
E-cars are probably future but not 2020 or even 2022.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Yes I noticed that all the burning Polos (and Fabias before that) were easily extinquished.. just like Breen's C3 in Turkey last year.

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You try to downplay a very real concern. What happens with a petrol car burning is just the fire. If you have a fire truck you extinguish it rather easily (of course it's a problem in the middle of the forest with a hand extinguisher). Even if you extinguish by water nothing serious happens. You can do that.

But if lithium-ion batteries start to burn just next to the fire truck it will probably won't make much difference to them burning in a remote place in the forest. Moreover if you try to extinguish it with water you will only add to the explosive power by adding hydrogen to the fire. If this happens somewhere in the forest it's much worse than with the petrol car because you can't effectively stop the fire from spreading until you cover all of that and the surroundings with a thick foam. For that you need very serious hardware. Something like airport fire trucks.

What is worst about that is that lithium-ion batteries like to start burning long time after they are damaged. This is what can never happen with petrol car. It can't simply start to burn in parc ferme in the middle of the night. The electric car can.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You try to downplay a very real concern. What happens with a petrol car burning is just the fire. If you have a fire truck you extinguish it rather easily (of course it's a problem in the middle of the forest with a hand extinguisher). Even if you extinguish by water nothing serious happens. You can do that.

But if lithium-ion batteries start to burn just next to the fire truck it will probably won't make much difference to them burning in a remote place in the forest. Moreover if you try to extinguish it with water you will only add to the explosive power by adding hydrogen to the fire. If this happens somewhere in the forest it's much worse than with the petrol car because you can't effectively stop the fire from spreading until you cover all of that and the surroundings with a thick foam. For that you need very serious hardware. Something like airport fire trucks.

What is worst about that is that lithium-ion batteries like to start burning long time after they are damaged. This is what can never happen with petrol car. It can't simply start to burn in parc ferme in the middle of the night. The electric car can.

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You try to upplay a concern.

As you said yourself and as proved by all the recent rally car fires, they can't stop the fire for petrol cars either, unless they stop next to a fire truck like Veiby in Portugal. So what happens is that the car burns until there is nothing to burn and all that is done is keep the fire from spreading. Which is the same that would be done with battery fire.

Yes the battery fire will burn longer and with higher temperature. But if you know you have batteries that can take fire you use fire-extinguishers applicable for that (foam, CO2, various versions with particles) that keep it from becoming too intense. For spreading in forest water on surroundings will work just fine.

Batteries catch fire if they are damaged or if they overheat. In high performance electric car battery temperature management is one of the most important systems so yes that has to be designed properly. For damage you off course have to focus on protecting the battery. Which again has to be focused on but in a car with rollcage and lot of empty space (no engine/exhaust etc, no rearseats++) it should be possible. Civilian battery cars don't burn everywhere around in crashes, quite the opposite. Yes they don't "race", but again they don't have rollcages++ either.

And here we are again to the fire actually starting (if it does) it's not like it's nuclear fuel burning, keep it from spreading at let it burn.. just like you do with petrol rally car.

Btw. the argument about fire starting later is also funny, cause that's exactly what happened to Breen in Turkey.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Btw. the argument about fire starting later is also funny, cause that's exactly what happened to Breen in Turkey.

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Well the difference was that Breen was driving the car. Petrol cars always have a risk of fire when they're ignited. But electric car could lit up hours after being shut down.

There's still challenges to be tackled with electric cars.

lol
https://twitter.com/brievesrallye/st...25133358411777

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Originally Posted by dimviii

lol
https://twitter.com/brievesrallye/st...25133358411777

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And the spectators are standing still to honor the heroes. It's like a siren.

Well like it or not, electric cars are the future. If manufacturers want to stay competitive in the market they need to start producing EV across their range. Plus be involved in electric motorsport if they want to use that avenue as a form of marketing for their brand.

Fossil fuel vehicles will become a thing of the past. France, the UK, Norway, Netherlands and Germany have all called for new cars to be emission-free or low emission by dates varying from 2025 to 2040. Other countries will follow this lead.

Sure the Opel Corsa-e and the Hyundai Kona EV rally car being developed in NZ by Hayden Paddon, https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/motors...ally-car-plans
don't sound super exciting at the moment but it's a start. And we need to start somewhere.
We could wait 20 years and start then, but to me the clever ones are the ones starting now.

Sure, the fire is always a risk. Isn't being a soft skinned fragile human, driving through the forest at 150Km/h in a metal box a risk anyway?Technology will probably have an answer. Like some form of fireproof, bullet-proof, oxygen starved capsule to hold the batteries. I don't really know the answer to this but I'm sure the FIA will insist on strict safety measures.

The manufacturers who are showing an interest now in e-Rallying now will have the head start on the rest.

Seems like people can't handle change.

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

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Originally Posted by Jarek Z

Yes, but there are much less fans than in 1985... TV doesn't even want to show rallying anymore...

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I forgot to reply to this. In Finland the TV coverage of the WRC is probably better than ever (all the same as WRC+ with Finnish reporters talking over the footage and doing some additional features). On a free channel.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

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Wrong.
When electric cars+fuel cost about the same as petrol cars everyone buys them for anything but long range trips.
- simpler to use (changing gears is gone, service minimalized)
- no smell from fuel/oil/exhaust
- no irritating noise (for most people)

I think this is the wrong forum to talk about which is the right fuel alternative for cars in general, we should focus on rallying.

However, we can't change the fact that car manufacturers are now heavily interested in selling electric rally cars, and in the end rallying is just their marketing tool.

I think this Opel project is a good prototype and starting point. We might see that it won't work, but at least someone is trying something.

It is so naive to shout "electric cars are the future". Development has this funny way of surprising us all. Well combustion is for sure not the future but I believe there will be a few interesting alternatives being presented in the next 10 years. And because of that, the WRC, a bit like F1 is doing atm, should be looking for those.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

However, we can't change the fact that car manufacturers are now heavily interested in selling electric rally cars, and in the end rallying is just their marketing tool.

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Originally Posted by Francis44

It is so naive to shout "electric cars are the future". Development has this funny way of surprising us all. Well combustion is for sure not the future but I believe there will be a few interesting alternatives being presented in the next 10 years. And because of that, the WRC, a bit like F1 is doing atm, should be looking for those.

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Manufacturers are making, selling and developing electric cars right now , sure the total numbers sold worldwide are not exactly huge but the number of models being introduced right now is big.
Check out any new announcements or automotive exhibitions, you have petrol car and then about 1/3 of new announcements are electric. For small cars (which are the "base" for rallying) it's much higher. Electric cars are the "present" new technology.

Rally has always been "hanging after" a bit in the last 20 years, (turbo engines when everyone stopped using them around 2005, then 2l without turbo just as everyone started downsizing..), so to think that rally will suddenly jump over what is currently the main trend (electric and hybrid) and go for something in the future (hydrogen) is plain crazy. F1 has been using hybrids for 10 years, so no wonder they will be looking on what to do next.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Wrong.
When electric cars+fuel cost about the same as petrol cars everyone buys them for anything but long range trips.
- simpler to use (changing gears is gone, service minimalized)
- no smell from fuel/oil/exhaust
- no irritating noise (for most people)

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Last year 1,4% of global car sales was electric. 1,26 million electric versus 85 millions fossil fuel.
There are about 1,4 billion cars in the world, about 5 million or 0,35% of those are electric.
That is the reality. Nobody buys electric cars unless they are forced to or they are heavily subsidized.

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Nobody buys electric cars unless they are heavily subsidized.
In reaction to that, manufacturers are not interested in electric cars except as PR.

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

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That might be correct, but for normal road use, give them a chance, they will surprize you.

Here in Norway they are heavy subsidiced. None of the strage fees put on the price when you buy it new, and no VAT on E-Cars
On a normal 115 hp Golf vs e-Golf, the e-Golf et aprox 12 000 euro less tax/fees.
A normal petrol 115 hp Golf cost aprox 33 000 euro as a startprice.

More advantages: No yearly fees, can drive in the bus-lane, you can park them for free a lot of places, you do not have to pay on toll roads, low maintenence costs, very little noise, cheap insurance.

I drive 120 km (2x60) each day to work. If i were to use my old diesel car, that would cost me aprox 6000 euro only in diesel.
I have a small e-Up! as a commuter car. Charge it at home for aprox 8 euro a month, and charge it for free at the workplace. All in all a very good deal, both for me and the environment!

So now we have 3 electric cars in the household, and we have saved, and continue to save a lot of money!

When it comes to motorsport, it is more or less only Formula E that is operational in the FIA system. Next out is rallycross I guess.
Formula E is for me boring, even if it is ok racing - something is missing - sound!

It is coming, if we like it or not. VW will stop making diesel and petrol engined cars in a few years, and same direction will come for many other manufacturers. Maybe also US cars will have to leave their beloved V8 sooner than Trump hopes!

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

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Western progaganda only? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ch...ion-2019-05-14

Manufacturers not truly interested in electric cars? https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/13...electric-cars/

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Last year 1,4% of global car sales was electric. 1,26 million electric versus 85 millions fossil fuel.
There are about 1,4 billion cars in the world, about 5 million or 0,35% of those are electric.
That is the reality. Nobody buys electric cars unless they are forced to or they are heavily subsidized.

Some here have a very distorted view due to western pro electric propaganda, but just looking at what the car manufacturers actually build and especially sell should make it clear that they are not truly interested in electric cars.

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Currently in most of the world, electric cars do no cost the same as petrol ones. I wrote when they actually do. People buy them, for the stated reasons.

WRC is basically a Europe-centric series (it even says in the rules that teams have to be based in Europe), the wast majority of cars is not sold in europe. But in countries like India or Indonesia, South America etc and are typically massively tuned down cheap older generation stuff.

Just looking at what car manufacturers actually invest in and develop right now shows you the majority is electric or hybrid. That being Toyota and VW who are the biggest car companies worldwide. That totally doesn't mean everyone will start driving electric tomorrow, but the trend is there.

Anyway talking about "propaganda" is the best way to stop any discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!

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It is imo entirely possible to make a spectacular electic car (but it would also need some sound yes). Just like it is possible to make totally boring petrol car. (add active suspension, esp and active difs to a rally car and watch the "fun").

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Originally Posted by Sulland

I would like to see a few races in Rallycross before I conclude on electric Motorsport, but it might fit rallycross well come to think of it. Instant torque and huge number of Kw could be cool!

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Electric rallycross car is here. How do you like it? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeD56BnI-o

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Originally Posted by Jarek Z

Electric rallycross car is here. How do you like it? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeD56BnI-o

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Like vegan cheese. Looks right, but clearly not cheese.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

As soon as the few western governments, and especially the eu stop promoting that bullshit, the electric car is done for.

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Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

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Originally Posted by Maui J.

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

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And they had to use artificial shutter sound!

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Originally Posted by Maui J.

Yeah, it's a bit like digital photography. It never took off... the quality was crap and people loved paying for film and processing so much they rejected it.

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Funnily enough a significant part of the younger generation has a rejuvenated interest in old film, they prefer the tactile feel.

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Originally Posted by Francis44

Funnily enough a significant part of the younger generation has a rejuvenated interest in old film, they prefer the tactile feel.

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and vinyl. But these are just retro hobbies, like historic rallying. Most of photos taken and music listened is still digital, actually through smartphones.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

and vinyl. But these are just retro hobbies, like historic rallying. Most of photos taken and music listened is still digital, actually through smartphones.

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Yes. Maybe that's why people lost interest in photos and music.
There are far less viewers of online photo galleries than it used to be 10-15 years ago.
And there are much less music sold nowadays than in the past.
Both things have lost their charm.
I'm not judging if it is good or bad, I don't know that.