2014 Pre-Season Testing

Anyone been watching the testing round ups and Ted's notebook on Sky?

I don't know if it is just the footage they have recorded, but everyone looks like they are on an in-lap/out-lap at the moment. I think they are just struggling to get their cars working, nevermind for a full race distance or even thinking about performance or set up yet. They'll do well to be able to do that before Melbourne, especially the Renault teams who have hardly done any running yet.

I think the cars sound quite "nice" although not as loud or exciting as before; but I do think it was time for a change. It's right that F1 should be pushing the boundaries of technology and moving with the times. The piece they did with the Renault guy last night was quite interesting.

I agree with your post RS, although I read that Kimi did try several different setups yesterday.
Alonso is off to a cracking start today :

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09:06 Alonso brings that seven-lap stint to a close. He lowered the benchmark several times, eventually getting down to a 1m26.321s.

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Ricciardo makes his debut in the RB10… a minute later he's stopped and it's smoking.

Renault have big issues at the moment. At this rate, Lotus missing the first test isn't quite as bad as it could have been. Even if they'd have showed up, it's unlikely they'd have got much running in anyway.

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Originally Posted by minardi

At this rate, Lotus missing the first test isn't quite as bad as it could have been. Even if they'd have showed up, it's unlikely they'd have got much running in anyway.

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Yes, maybe they knew what was coming.

There is a couple of weeks break until the next test after this one which will give Renault a breather to hopefully sort out their problems.

The Renault problems seem to be affecting Red Bull more than the other Renault teams though, Torro Rosso have done 22 laps today (although 20s off the pace)

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Originally Posted by RS

The Renault problems seem to be affecting Red Bull more than the other Renault teams though, Torro Rosso have done 22 laps today (although 20s off the pace)

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Spot on. From Autosport...

Our technical expert GARY ANDERSON analysed Red Bull's situation after Daniel Ricciardo's truncated debut earlier today, and revealed there are paddock whispers about Renault raising eyebrows at Red Bull's electronics installation:

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Originally Posted by RS

The Renault problems seem to be affecting Red Bull more than the other Renault teams

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Or is it the other way around?

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AUTOSPORT's F1 technical expert Gary Anderson looks at the problems the world champion squad is having.

The reason for the stoppage hasn't yet emerged, but this is worrying for Red Bull given that the new RB10 has managed a grand total of 11 complete laps in two-and-a-half days.

The technical rumour mill in the paddock suggests that Renault is less than pleased with Red Bull's installation of the control electronics in its 2014 car.

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It is starting to appear that they have both cocked up.

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Tobias Grüner F1 ?@tgruener 38 Sek. Helmut Marko: "The latest problem has nothing to do with the power unit. It's in our own responsibility.".

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:grenade:

Is this the year Adrian Newey shoots his team in the foot again - like he did that year when at McLaren where they had to design and build a new car at the start of the season?

Its looking bad at the moment for Red Bull, but I would still be cautious about writing them off. Remember was it 2012 and the first half of the championship was average, before coming strong and winning the title.

Also this is what Pre Season is for, its a long way from doom. By the time the season roles round they could be in great shape.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Is this the year Adrian Newey shoots his team in the foot again - like he did that year when at McLaren where they had to design and build a new car at the start of the season?

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One can always hope! :devil:

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Its looking bad at the moment for Red Bull, but I would still be cautious about writing them off. Remember was it 2012 and the first half of the championship was average, before coming strong and winning the title.

Also this is what Pre Season is for, its a long way from doom. By the time the season roles round they could be in great shape.

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Point is, there is so much to learn. Cooling v aero trade off - you cant run optimal aero until you know your cooling needs when running the car at full chat using all the motors etc that all create heat. The Red Bull cannot even complete a slow lap, let alone run reliably. This puts everything back!

Then, they need to work on strategy, working out how much you can lean on the ers (H & K) to eek out maximum mpg against best laptime.

Still, it's still early doors, but its quite ominous, init tho????

Well yes it is Wilko. ;)
Red Bull is done for the day Ted Kravits is saying:

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Lots of drilling in RB pit. Seems turbo and battery control unit packaging is too tight, not a Renault prob pic.twitter.com/oP9HK0OZX4

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Surely Red Bull will get this sorted out in time for the first race, but I want to see C. Horner squirm for a while, the longer the better :angel:

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Originally Posted by Mr Alca-Tazizzle

Well yes it is Wilko. ;)
Red Bull is done for the day Ted Kravits is saying:

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Lots of drilling in RB pit. Seems turbo and battery control unit packaging is too tight, not a Renault prob pic.twitter.com/oP9HK0OZX4

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Surely Red Bull will get this sorted out in time for the first race, but I want to see C. Horner squirm for a while, the longer the better :angel:

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He's decided not to squirm in public today as he and Adrian Newey have left the circuit. All is not well at the Red Bull camp.

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Originally Posted by Mr Alca-Tazizzle

Well yes it is Wilko. ;)
Red Bull is done for the day Ted Kravits is saying:

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Lots of drilling in RB pit. Seems turbo and battery control unit packaging is too tight, not a Renault prob pic.twitter.com/oP9HK0OZX4

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Surely Red Bull will get this sorted out in time for the first race, but I want to see C. Horner squirm for a while, the longer the better :angel:

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C 'est tres interressant! Can't wait for Ted's testing notebook tonight!!!

And still, the Red Bull could turn out to be an unreliable 1991 Ferrari (truck)! Surely, they would not compromise on cooling for speed would they? Don't they learn anything????

It's definitely a Whack Whack Ooops from Newey.

The Boss puts in a 123.9 FWIW. Mercedes seems to be on top of things here, and I think they are going to be tough this season!

A Hamilton, Rosberg, Kimi, Fred & Button title fight in prospect? :)

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Originally Posted by Ted Kravitz

Ted Kravitz has been discussing Red Bull’s problems on Sky Sports News:

“It has been another dreadful day for Red Bull and it couldn’t have come at a worse time because the Red Bull co-owner Dietrich Mateschitz has turned up as has Helmut Marko and they are here to witness the continuation of a poor test. They have only had a few laps, no real running, no real learning about the new car, persistent overheating problems. Some indication as to whether those problems are down to the over aggressive packaging of Adrian Newey on this car or whether it is actually a problem with what Renault have supplied them is not working with their packing – that is going to be an argument that is down to fine details and it doesn’t really mate because what it means is that Red Bull, the reigning World Champions, have not been able to use the first test in any meaningful way and that is going to put them on the back foot for their season preparations.

“The old dentist drill is going on in garage 22, so they are working on the car and seeing if they can change it and change the bodywork and make it work because they have this track time available. A day extra spent working here or an extra day in the factory in Milton Keynes probably won’t make that much of a difference. There are two weeks between the end of this test and the beginning of the Bahrain test and that will probably shrink to a week and a half because they have to fly the car out to Bahrain. So I don’t think they would be better served calling it a day right now and you never know they might achieve some good things with the dentist drill and at least get the car to run five laps, ten laps, something like this. But we believe they are not going to run for the rest of the day – Day Three in Jerez and still no meaningful running for Red Bull. We will see if the drilling gets them anywhere tomorrow.”

As for whether it is a Red Bull or a Renault problem:

“It is a problem for them both, but it is a bigger problem for Red Bull as it is their job to take all the elements from Renault, the battery, the battery control system, the transformer and then the energy recovery systems and package it in a way that it isn’t going to overheat. I think ultimately it is Red Bull’s fault – they get all the equipment in from a supplier and it is their job to make it work together and they haven’t.”

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Ouch!

Who knows? You know Seb is going to be up there. As for "Jense" I think he will have his hands full with Magnusson. The battle between Fred and Kimi is going to be epic, and I really hope it is at/near the top, but it is way too early to say. I'm just going to stay in my bubble enjoying almighty Red Bull do their Alphonse-Gaston routine :p:

I think its been fun to see everyone struggling a bit. I had the feeling over the last few years that F1 has been a bit stale and samey, but these regs seem to have put a real question mark in everyone's mind.

Fun times ahead hopefully.

P.S I enjoy seeing Red Bull struggle as much as you guys that was one team that appeared to be getting too big for its boots, but I still fear they will be mighty come the end of the season.

Anyone have any pics or extra information about Slashes Crash?

He brought the Red flag out earlier , it then got taken in and the Toro Rosso brings it out once again after grinding to a halt.

Vergne has put quite a few laps on the Toro Rosso today though and is 'only' 6 seconds off the pace now.

At the end of Day 3,

Pos Driver Team Time Gap Laps
1. Kevin Magnussen McLaren-Mercedes 1m23.276s 52
2. Felipe Massa Williams-Mercedes 1m23.700s +0.424s 47
3. Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1m23.952s +0.676s 62
4. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m25.030s +1.754s 40
5. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1m25.495s +2.219s 58
6. Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1m26.096s +2.820s 17
7. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso-Renault 1m29.915s +6.639s 30
8. Adrian Sutil Sauber-Ferrari 1m30.161s +6.885s 34
9. Robin Frijns Caterham-Renault No time - 10
10. Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull-Renault No time - 3
11. Max Chilton Marussia-Ferrari No time - 5

Mercedes is looking good, and I'm happy for RB, even if its a bit unsporting, but I'd love to see Vettel in sort of a Ferrari 2005 situation, and see how good he really is.

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2

Mercedes is looking good, and I'm happy for RB, even if its a bit unsporting, but I'd love to see Vettel in sort of a Ferrari 2005 situation, and see how good he really is.

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The 2005 Ferrari didn't have an engine that the manufacturer limited to 250km, less than the distance of the shortes GP of the year (Monaco), so that comparison is a wee bit flawed. Word is that Renault needs at least 20 weeks to sort the thing out, which I would say is catastrophic news for Fake!Lotus and Caterham.-

Sound like V6's to me.

I can't imagine RBR fielding a POS, I would imagine regular transmission will soon be resumed. :burp:

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

Sound like V6's to me.

I can't imagine RBR fielding a POS, I would imagine regular transmission will soon be resumed. :burp:

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Yeah, the moment Vettel gets a clear lap in he will probably go 2s quicker than everyone else :rolleyes:

I am really surprised Red Bull got it so wrong though. Ok, they are normally tight on packaging but to have stuff running so hot it can't even complete a few laps is amazing.

Ricciardo has just completed a lap this morning though! A better day for Renault?

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Originally Posted by RS

I am really surprised Red Bull got it so wrong though. Ok, they are normally tight on packaging but to have stuff running so hot it can't even complete a few laps is amazing.

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Red Bull's packaging may be tight (when it hasn't been the case with Newey?), but since all Renault-engined cars seem to be in trouble, there is clearly a bigger issue going on with Renault powerplants.

Personally I believe Red Bull's aerodynamics and chassis in general is top-notch, so if they have a bad season, it will be down to the engine. Like Ferrari's 2005 was largely attributed to Bridgestone tyres, as in 2006, when they got 'competitive' tyres, Ferrari was up there again.

Interesting comments from Sutil:

"It's so different and you can feel it in every gear. It's not about using all the rev band anymore. The torque is in the middle of the rev band so you can sometimes shift a bit earlier, or use different gears in a corner, it doesn't really make a difference.

"So the engine is a lot more powerful in the rev band than the V8. The V8 was more operating between 15 and 18,000rpm so you always had to keep the revs up.

"Also we have eight gears, so you never run into a limiter at the end of the straight, you can go at almost 400km/h with these gears so it's very different, a massive change in every direction."

Red Bull have packed up and gone home.

Renault have problems, but it is affecting Red Bull and Toro Rosso the most it seems as Caterham have done 45 laps today.

Yes RS it has been suggested that Caterham's battery and engine components are more loosely packaged allowing sufficient cooling.

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Originally Posted by jens

Red Bull's packaging may be tight (when it hasn't been the case with Newey?), but since all Renault-engined cars seem to be in trouble, there is clearly a bigger issue going on with Renault powerplants.

Personally I believe Red Bull's aerodynamics and chassis in general is top-notch, so if they have a bad season, it will be down to the engine. Like Ferrari's 2005 was largely attributed to Bridgestone tyres, as in 2006, when they got 'competitive' tyres, Ferrari was up there again.

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I don't think you can simplify things like that and blame Renault. Today one Renault powered team has done more laps than every Renault powered car in the whole week up till now and there isn't a single red bovine on the car.

All the teams were provided information about the packaging and cooling needs of the powertrain and only one has used the information sufficiently well to allow its car to run, but the fact that one team has got it right indicates that the powertrain itself is not the sole issue.

It also sounds like RBR in particular left the development and construction of the current car very late indeed which compounded the problems, I think a large chunk of the blame has to be laid at Milton Keynes' door.

I'm sure if/when the RBR runs it will be very quick indeed but Newey has always sacrificed reliability for speed with extremely tight packaging that puts an extra strain on components. Putting KERS next to the gearbox in previous years may have helped aero packaging but it hurt reliability badly, just ask Webber... Thats the risk you run by pushing the envelope so far isn't it?

Caterham have shut down for the day as well. Still they have done some decent running compared to Red Bull

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Originally Posted by Malbec

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Originally Posted by jens

Red Bull's packaging may be tight (when it hasn't been the case with Newey?), but since all Renault-engined cars seem to be in trouble, there is clearly a bigger issue going on with Renault powerplants.

Personally I believe Red Bull's aerodynamics and chassis in general is top-notch, so if they have a bad season, it will be down to the engine. Like Ferrari's 2005 was largely attributed to Bridgestone tyres, as in 2006, when they got 'competitive' tyres, Ferrari was up there again.

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I don't think you can simplify things like that and blame Renault. Today one Renault powered team has done more laps than every Renault powered car in the whole week up till now and there isn't a single red bovine on the car.

All the teams were provided information about the packaging and cooling needs of the powertrain and only one has used the information sufficiently well to allow its car to run, but the fact that one team has got it right indicates that the powertrain itself is not the sole issue.

It also sounds like RBR in particular left the development and construction of the current car very late indeed which compounded the problems, I think a large chunk of the blame has to be laid at Milton Keynes' door.

I'm sure if/when the RBR runs it will be very quick indeed but Newey has always sacrificed reliability for speed with extremely tight packaging that puts an extra strain on components. Putting KERS next to the gearbox in previous years may have helped aero packaging but it hurt reliability badly, just ask Webber... Thats the risk you run by pushing the envelope so far isn't it?

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Ted's second notebook for the first test featured a Q&A with Renault - they had some advisories on turbo 'knocking' that can destroy the engine. Looking at the time sheets, it is very clear that the Renault wick is turned lower that a tarts knickers! ;)

[quote=dj_bytedisaster]

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Originally Posted by "i_max2k2":2za6e0eb

Mercedes is looking good, and I'm happy for RB, even if its a bit unsporting, but I'd love to see Vettel in sort of a Ferrari 2005 situation, and see how good he really is.

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The 2005 Ferrari didn't have an engine that the manufacturer limited to 250km, less than the distance of the shortes GP of the year (Monaco), so that comparison is a wee bit flawed. Word is that Renault needs at least 20 weeks to sort the thing out, which I would say is catastrophic news for Fake!Lotus and Caterham.-[/quote:2za6e0eb]

No its not flawed really, it was one component of the car that caused a lot of issues. The point really was if Red Bull do end up having a poor car and it does finish races, we'll get to see how well Seb can push the car by himself.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

I don't think you can simplify things like that and blame Renault. Today one Renault powered team has done more laps than every Renault powered car in the whole week up till now and there isn't a single red bovine on the car.

All the teams were provided information about the packaging and cooling needs of the powertrain and only one has used the information sufficiently well to allow its car to run, but the fact that one team has got it right indicates that the powertrain itself is not the sole issue.

It also sounds like RBR in particular left the development and construction of the current car very late indeed which compounded the problems, I think a large chunk of the blame has to be laid at Milton Keynes' door.

I'm sure if/when the RBR runs it will be very quick indeed but Newey has always sacrificed reliability for speed with extremely tight packaging that puts an extra strain on components. Putting KERS next to the gearbox in previous years may have helped aero packaging but it hurt reliability badly, just ask Webber... Thats the risk you run by pushing the envelope so far isn't it?

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Caterham was running with engine well down on power and the way they have designed the car, it looks like it is most conservative design with huge sidepods, etc. It could enable them to be a bit more reliable, but on the other hand not much speed can be expected from that.

Anyway, yes, how the engine exactly works in a car, depends on the characteristics in each car itself, but generally Renault has more problems than other engines. Four Mercedes-powered teams were all at the sharp end of timesheets and racked up lots of laps, while Renault-teams were nowhere and Lotus wasn't even there - perhaps they knew that the engine was problematic and their package wasn't ready for the test? I think that's the real reason.

Coincidence? Don't think so. I think Renault is currently behind on reliability stakes and I very much doubt any of the Mercedes teams would like to switch their powerplant for the Renault one.

LAPS COMPLETED
DRIVERS

1. Nico ROSBERG ........ 188
2. Fernando ALONSO ........ 173
3. Kevin MAGNUSSEN ........ 161
4. Felipe MASSA ........ 133
5. Lewis HAMILTON ........ 111
6. Adrian SUTIL ........ 103
7. Daniel JUNCADELLA ........ 81 *
8. Kimi RAIKKONEN ......... 78
9. Esteban GUTIERREZ ........ 60
10. Kamui KOBAYASHI ........ 54
----------------------------------------------
18. Sebastian VETTEL ........ 11

TEAMS

1. Mercedes ........ 299
2. Ferrari ........ 251
3. McLaren ........ 201
4. Williams ........ 175
5. Sauber ........ 163
6. Force India ........ 146
7. Caterham ........ 76
8. Toro Rosso ........ 53
9. Marussia ........ 30
10. Red Bull ........ 21

ENGINES

1. Mercedes ........ 821
2. Ferrari ........ 444
3. Renault ........ 150

Om another note, I read that TJ13 link dj posted.

In it, the writer said he was standing around turn 5(?) when Gutierrez went off. Shortly after, a car pulled up and ol' one ear* was driving, then ol' one eye* hopped out and snapped a load of pictures of the Sauber's rear.


*with thanks to Doc/Taz :sailor:

A good time today by Bianchi in the Marussia, only 4s off the pace despite it only running a day and a half at this test.

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2

No its not flawed really, it was one component of the car that caused a lot of issues. The point really was if Red Bull do end up having a poor car and it does finish races, we'll get to see how well Seb can push the car by himself.

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The word 'push' will most likely be gone from most people's vocabulary by the third race. This is from today's interview with Nico Rosberg.

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Originally Posted by Nico Rosberg

The driveability with the turbo is still a bit of an adventure. It will take some time until we have it in a good range. When I took to the car on day 2 I could run many, seemingly problem free kilometers, but in reality it was a constant struggle. We couldn't get heat into the tyres and we barely managed GP2 pace.
I would like to go faster than last year, but that's not going to happen. That's the downside of 2014. The strategy will play a much bigger role with the new rules, but we're not luxury passengers in the cars.
If the team radio fails, it will not be good. It's almost science to work out, when to overtake and when to conserve fuels, so that you make it to the end.

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source : Motorsport Total (German)

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Originally Posted by RS

A good time today by Bianchi in the Marussia, only 4s off the pace despite it only running a day and a half at this test.

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8 seconds off the fastest time of the week despite doing just 25 laps in 2 days on a track with changeable conditions, that is extremely promising

I like that info about Marussia's times. They had a pretty tough start, but hopefully some reasons to be cheerful for the team.