The fall of McLaren

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.
The Mclaren way and culture is starting to not be an attractive prospect for top engineers and folks anymore and their continued 2013 struggles are unfolding in a troubling way that can directly be matched to the early days of ther williams downfall. This is also accompined by a duo of drivers who are not ideal for further developing this car. Button seems to think he is entitled to beat his temmate rather than race against him. He will never extract more out of the car than it is capable off and all too often actually underperforms it wrapped in a cloud of frustration and dismay. Many times giving up before sunday has even arrived. Perez on the other hand is too raw of a driver at this point but is inherantly quicker than button. The car is not that good and he struggles to extract more out of it as well. Mclaren missed their chance with Hulkenberg IMO.

What they need is some outside talent to come into the fold and shake up their thinking process. Yes they produce excellent cars every odd year, and they might sort it out eventually with the 2013 car if they stick with it, but all signs point towards a further decline for the forseable futue if button remains and the culture persists.

Mclaren do seem very stale at the moment, but lets not forget just last year they had one of the best cars on the grid, but that said they havent really delivered the titles their cars have warranted. i.e 2005,2007,2010,2011,2012. All seasons where Mclaren could have won a title, given different things happening here and there

It's a very tricky time out there. People predicting the decline of McLaren better get ready to taste crow. This is the most successful team in F1 since they entered the sport lets not forget.

Lets wait and see ;)

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Originally Posted by truefan72

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.

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There is always some bits of insider information, unknown to us, that can logically explain Hamilton's move to Mercedes. This situation also reminds me Schumacher's move from Benetton to Ferrari. At that time, everyone thought he was nuts, but then Benetton went on a decline and Ferrari started improving.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

so in the end Hamilton made the right decsion and proved hoards of naysayers wrong.
Mclaren are in danger of running into the same problem as Williams. They have a very insular culture where they are alll singing their own praises and laudin their "rich history" of success.
The Mclaren way and culture is starting to not be an attractive prospect for top engineers and folks anymore and their continued 2013 struggles are unfolding in a troubling way that can directly be matched to the early days of ther williams downfall. This is also accompined by a duo of drivers who are not ideal for further developing this car. Button seems to think he is entitled to beat his temmate rather than race against him. He will never extract more out of the car than it is capable off and all too often actually underperforms it wrapped in a cloud of frustration and dismay. Many times giving up before sunday has even arrived. Perez on the other hand is too raw of a driver at this point but is inherantly quicker than button. The car is not that good and he struggles to extract more out of it as well. Mclaren missed their chance with Hulkenberg IMO.

What they need is some outside talent to come into the fold and shake up their thinking process. Yes they produce excellent cars every odd year, and they might sort it out eventually with the 2013 car if they stick with it, but all signs point towards a further decline for the forseable futue if button remains and the culture persists.

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Well for sure, something isn't right. It seems that since the combination of Hakkinen and Coulthard they have had difficulty keeping a pair of drivers who seem content with the team and has a good combination of capabilities. If you go back to the year 2000, they have had 5 WDCs on the team since... but haven't wrapped up a constructors title. The only one still retained won the WDC in a grossly dominant car. Yet the drivers they have let go have proven to be able to push in other cars, and in some cases win titles in other cars.

Granted it is hard to live up to the reputation they had in the 80s and early 90s, but something has stagnated and gone wrong that they keep getting so behind in development.

Truefan, interesting thoughts about McLaren and their culture. What is clear is that these days you need to be very open-minded and flexible to succeed. Attract the best people around the world and adapt to their needs and preferences to get the best out of each person and work in harmony. I can't measure, what is McLaren's situation, but IMO they have gone backwards in the last few years in their depth of the team, even if the fall has seemed sudden (very fast car in 2012).

I may explain it further. In 2008-2010 McLaren seemed like the most complete team on the grid. Even if they struggled, they could fix issues, develop fast and race operations were top-notch. Recall mid-2010, when Hamilton and Button were first and second in the drivers championship. However, they hit a problem in car development and fell to 4th and 5th. This was the first sign of McLaren's weakness. Their in-season development wasn't as impressive as thought to be.

Pre-2011 they had big problems in testing. Somehow they overcame these by the first race and in the end the car was pretty fast, but in strategies and race operations they were already struggling to match RBR and even Ferrari. While in 2010 RBR was still inferior to McLaren in "completeness" of the team.

For 2012 they once again had a fundamentally fast car, but problems became even deeper. An inconsistent car, which in some conditions hardly worked plus big setup issues. So big that Button turned into a slower driver than he had ever been before! Surely it unveiled a weakness in Button, but it also shows team's weakness that they can't get the best out of a driver any more.

2013? Now they have a slow car. Once again setup issues. Once again struggling to develop a car during a season. Why did they ditch 2012 design? Because they thought they would be unable to develop it properly. So IMO this shows a deeper issue in the team. Regardless of which car they have, they have problems in maximizing its potential.

Bottom line is that in one aspect McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda. This is an important ability, because without that McLaren could well fall into a long-term trouble. Something in which Williams already is as they are not able to attract big corporations and frankly aren't open-minded enough either.

How open is McLaren? Can't say for sure, but there are strong rumours about their corporate culture, which doesn't suit everyone. Including Newey, who ran away to RBR to have more freedom. Much like he had ran away from Williams to McLaren earlier...

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Originally Posted by jens

McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda.

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Williams attracted BMW after their initial decline, but no championships.......

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Originally Posted by jens

Truefan, interesting thoughts about McLaren and their culture. What is clear is that these days you need to be very open-minded and flexible to succeed. Attract the best people around the world and adapt to their needs and preferences to get the best out of each person and work in harmony. I can't measure, what is McLaren's situation, but IMO they have gone backwards in the last few years in their depth of the team, even if the fall has seemed sudden (very fast car in 2012).

I may explain it further. In 2008-2010 McLaren seemed like the most complete team on the grid. Even if they struggled, they could fix issues, develop fast and race operations were top-notch. Recall mid-2010, when Hamilton and Button were first and second in the drivers championship. However, they hit a problem in car development and fell to 4th and 5th. This was the first sign of McLaren's weakness. Their in-season development wasn't as impressive as thought to be.

Pre-2011 they had big problems in testing. Somehow they overcame these by the first race and in the end the car was pretty fast, but in strategies and race operations they were already struggling to match RBR and even Ferrari. While in 2010 RBR was still inferior to McLaren in "completeness" of the team.

For 2012 they once again had a fundamentally fast car, but problems became even deeper. An inconsistent car, which in some conditions hardly worked plus big setup issues. So big that Button turned into a slower driver than he had ever been before! Surely it unveiled a weakness in Button, but it also shows team's weakness that they can't get the best out of a driver any more.

2013? Now they have a slow car. Once again setup issues. Once again struggling to develop a car during a season. Why did they ditch 2012 design? Because they thought they would be unable to develop it properly. So IMO this shows a deeper issue in the team. Regardless of which car they have, they have problems in maximizing its potential.

Bottom line is that in one aspect McLaren is in a better situation than Williams. They have managed to attract a big partner in Honda. This is an important ability, because without that McLaren could well fall into a long-term trouble. Something in which Williams already is as they are not able to attract big corporations and frankly aren't open-minded enough either.

How open is McLaren? Can't say for sure, but there are strong rumours about their corporate culture, which doesn't suit everyone. Including Newey, who ran away to RBR to have more freedom. Much like he had ran away from Williams to McLaren earlier...

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:up: very well said Jens

McLaren is now a mid-field team but they will be up front again in the future. Remember 1978-1979 or 1994-1996, when the team struggled as well.. Of course when you'd think they had to drive in the top 6 in order to get points back in those times, this years' car seems to be the worst of all. On the other side: Back in those times we had a lot of retirements during a race and nowadays almost everyone finishes the race, if there would be as much DNF's per race nowadays as they had back in the old days, this car would have been on the podium already, if not in victory lane. I'm not a McLaren fan but I hope they will find their way to the top again, 2014 might become another awful season but real McLaren fans should look forward to 2015... Honda knows how to build good engines..

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Originally Posted by heliocastroneves#3

McLaren is now a mid-field team but they will be up front again in the future. Remember 1978-1979 or 1994-1996, when the team struggled as well.. Of course when you'd think they had to drive in the top 6 in order to get points back in those times, this years' car seems to be the worst of all. On the other side: Back in those times we had a lot of retirements during a race and nowadays almost everyone finishes the race, if there would be as much DNF's per race nowadays as they had back in the old days, this car would have been on the podium already, if not in victory lane. I'm not a McLaren fan but I hope they will find their way to the top again, 2014 might become another awful season but real McLaren fans should look forward to 2015... Honda knows how to build good engines..

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Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

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The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.

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Yep, I don't doubt that, it's just that people keep saying Honda produces great engines but I don't see them anywhere, at least not in their passenger cars. I mean look at their normally aspirated engines, they're nothing special. The Koreans, for example, produce better ones not to mention makers that've gone the turbo route. Still, it's great to see them back.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Do they? Or is it all in the past since they did quite badly with their own team in F1 and their passenger cars still have lazy normally aspirated engines while VAG and others are very successful with small turbos.

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Honda's naturally aspirated engines are world class. Moreover, it's quite interesting that Honda pretty much refused so far to invest in turbo engines. Instead, they developed this new "Earth Dreams" engine that's now in the 2013 North American Accord (the 2.4L) version. By all accounts it's a class leader right now. Point. Nothing comes close. It gives excellent performance, compared to all competing engines, including turbo, and probably the best fuel economy in class. The power output is considered to be "underrated" from factory. The behemoth 2013 Accord with 2.4L can accellerate 0-60mph under 7 seconds and deliver near 40mpgs on highway. Neither Honda engines are "lazy". Honda's Civic SI always competed pretty well against the equally priced VW GTI and Jetta GLI with 1.8/2.0T engines, beating VAG cars on trace track tests on regular basis, and the SI still doesn't have the new earth dreams engine yet. In any case, the road car engines have very little relevance to F1. Honda has the potential to deliver a great F1 engine of any type, as they did on many occasions. In the 80s their turbo and naturally aspirated engines were dominant. Since 2012, Honda was building the V6 turbo engines for IndyCar.

So why did the things go wrong for Honda in 2000s? Most car companies do not understand well how to run a Formula 1 team IMO. In the past 20 years, Renault was the only manufacturer team that managed to do well. The problem that every new engine manufacturer faces is this: how can we put our engine into a great car? In the early 2000s, the engine "seats" at all good teams were already taken, so Honda took over a whole team, as did Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, and later BMW. Another problem with this approach is that you end up having to fund the whole team, not just the engine development, while the independent teams are usually better scouts for 3rd party sponsors. In 2015, the situation will be reminiscent of the 80s when Honda just made engines and just gave them to professionals. Post-2013 is a good time for Honda to enter as McLaren has just divorced from Mercedes ownership. Still, it's entirely possible that the relationship can have a very slow start, sort of like McLaren had with Peugeot and Mercedes in the 90s.

Sometime luck plays good role to identify some thing for someone. Same things happens with McLaren but they will improve it soon.

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Originally Posted by zako85

Honda's naturally aspirated engines are world class. Moreover, it's quite interesting that Honda pretty much refused so far to invest in turbo engines. Instead, they developed this new "Earth Dreams" engine that's now in the 2013 North American Accord (the 2.4L) version. By all accounts it's a class leader right now. Point. Nothing comes close. It gives excellent performance, compared to all competing engines, including turbo, and probably the best fuel economy in class. The power output is considered to be "underrated" from factory. The behemoth 2013 Accord with 2.4L can accellerate 0-60mph under 7 seconds and deliver near 40mpgs on highway. Neither Honda engines are "lazy". Honda's Civic SI always competed pretty well against the equally priced VW GTI and Jetta GLI with 1.8/2.0T engines, beating VAG cars on trace track tests on regular basis, and the SI still doesn't have the new earth dreams engine yet. In any case, the road car engines have very little relevance to F1. Honda has the potential to deliver a great F1 engine of any type, as they did on many occasions. In the 80s their turbo and naturally aspirated engines were dominant. Since 2012, Honda was building the V6 turbo engines for IndyCar.

So why did the things go wrong for Honda in 2000s? Most car companies do not understand well how to run a Formula 1 team IMO. In the past 20 years, Renault was the only manufacturer team that managed to do well. The problem that every new engine manufacturer faces is this: how can we put our engine into a great car? In the early 2000s, the engine "seats" at all good teams were already taken, so Honda took over a whole team, as did Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, and later BMW. Another problem with this approach is that you end up having to fund the whole team, not just the engine development, while the independent teams are usually better scouts for 3rd party sponsors. In 2015, the situation will be reminiscent of the 80s when Honda just made engines and just gave them to professionals. Post-2013 is a good time for Honda to enter as McLaren has just divorced from Mercedes ownership. Still, it's entirely possible that the relationship can have a very slow start, sort of like McLaren had with Peugeot and Mercedes in the 90s.

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I have no experience of American Hondas but I've tried recent Honda CR-V and Accord with 2-litre normally aspirated engines and I tell you, even the smallest 1.2 TSI 105hp from Vag feels a lot more punchy and gives a better fuel economy. But this is bit offtopic anyway, It's great to see Honda back. Their F1 engines were great between 1987-1991, but can they repeat that? I don't know...

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I have no experience of American Hondas but I've tried recent Honda CR-V and Accord with 2-litre normally aspirated engines and I tell you, even the smallest 1.2 TSI 105hp from Vag feels a lot more punchy and gives a better fuel economy. But this is bit offtopic anyway, It's great to see Honda back. Their F1 engines were great between 1987-1991, but can they repeat that? I don't know...

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I inherited an Accord Tourer from work, it had the new 2.2iCTDi lump. Very quiet, clean, powerful and frugal. Not bad for their first diesel.

The car design is a big issue. Red Bull of course didn't come up with their car overnight or even in one year, it's a good design which has been refined again and again. Whereas the likes of McLaren who find themselves down the wrong route have to start again from scratch and you can't start from scratch and compete against a car which has had years of development behind it. Unless the rules change, hence Brawn in 2009.

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Originally Posted by Mark

The car design is a big issue. Red Bull of course didn't come up with their car overnight or even in one year, it's a good design which has been refined again and again. Whereas the likes of McLaren who find themselves down the wrong route have to start again from scratch and you can't start from scratch and compete against a car which has had years of development behind it. Unless the rules change, hence Brawn in 2009.

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I don't think a successful car _needs_ years of development. Extensive experience with what works and what not certainly helps. A team can frequently completely reverse its fortunes simply over the course of the end of year break. What worries more is the engines. An engine can't be redesigned overnight. A big part of Ferrari's collapse in the first half of 90s was the V12 engine that wasn't competitive. It took them many years to replace it. Looking at the development pace of the new turbo engines, the whole cycle from clean sheet to working engine probably has to take at least two years if not more.

McLaren will bounce back. They just need time. Just wait and see.

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Originally Posted by mason riley

McLaren will bounce back. They just need time. Just wait and see.

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Time is not a luxury one is afforded in F1.........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Time is not a luxury one is afforded in F1.........

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McLaren evidently can afford to take its sweet time. No constructor titles since 1998. They'll bounce, eventually.

they had there chance with lewis hamilton adn screwd it up all them years. now no chance at all.

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Originally Posted by zako85

McLaren evidently can afford to take its sweet time. No constructor titles since 1998. They'll bounce, eventually.

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Exactly. Absurd for a team of their lineage to not have a constructors in that length of time. They could have in 2007 had they not been excluded.

Still, ridiculous situation for McLaren at the moment. If I were a driver I wouldn't want to drive for them. I'd be a nearly man. Might get lucky once every 15 years and that's about it. I'd also be willing to bet that's a lot of the reason as to why Lewis left.

i definitely view them as a geniuine top team ...

It pains me too much to talk about McLaren. :o uch:! Just mentioning the name hurts...

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Originally Posted by faster69

You're not gonna win a championship with Button as your number one driver unless you produce a car far superior to the opposition.

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agree with you man.

As a Mclaren fan, this has been a very painful season thus far.

Unfortunatly we're approaching that part of the season now where even if they did return to winning ways it's pretty much too little too late.

I like Jenson Button but have to somewhat agree that his only at his best when the Car is, Hamilton proved himself in 2009 by pushing a very mediocre Car to it's limits, No doubt had he stayed at Mclaren this year He would probably still have more Points than Button and Perez combined.

Still keeping my fingers cross they might at least achieve a Podium before the end of the year, but I'm certainly not going to be placing any bets.

It's when teams like Caterham and Marussia start out pacing them that's when I'll start worrying :P

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Originally Posted by Eunos

I like Jenson Button but have to somewhat agree that his only at his best when the Car is, Hamilton proved himself in 2009 by pushing a very mediocre Car to it's limits, No doubt had he stayed at Mclaren this year He would probably still have more Points than Button and Perez combined.

Still keeping my fingers cross they might at least achieve a Podium before the end of the year, but I'm certainly not going to be placing any bets.

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Are you saying that in 2011 Mclaren had the best car? So lewy finished 5th while driving the best car? Your logic here seems pretty daft.

I think the Honda engines in 2015 could be a huge help for them

With the loss of money that McLaren are going to win this year by finishing behind Force India, I'm beginning to wonder how much of a 'pay-driver' Sergio Perez is for the team........

So it looks as though as unlike 2009 McLaren has not been able to recover during the year. Next year will show if this is a more permanent low. If Mercedes engines are as good as rumoured, it may enable the Woking team to have a shot at podiums again.

Lets hope so, not the same seeing them scrap for a couple of points each race.

Not a fan of Perez either, seems he is a bit overly aggressive. Would be nice to see him finishing a few more races.

It will be interesting to see if there is anything to come from the Ross Brawn "rumour"....

The problem they now have is that they don't have drivers that can perform well with anything other than a great car. This alone will make development even worse, especially with Jenson being particular to setup.

It's sad to see really.

I don't see McLaren's problem in the drivers department. The problem is their current management, who read the 'Idiot's guide to F1' and then proceeded to make every error in the book. They had a winning car and IMHO it was equal if not faster than the Red Bull for most of 2012. And what do they do? They scrap it and start from scratch for 2013 - a year of what everybody knew that it would be a transitional year and that development would have to shift to 2014 early. Had they evolved the 2012 car and made it more reliable, as would have been logical, they'd have wins by now, not minor points.

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Originally Posted by henners88

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Originally Posted by jens

I agree that they leave such impression. But it isn't necessarily something set in stone. Does it mean McLaren in 2011 had a weak line-up? Because apparently the same Button was a team leader that year and seemingly did a very impressive job.

Sometimes I wonder, what would have happened if Hamilton left straight after 2011 and we would have the 2013 situation right after. Button would be considered a top driver and no-one would complain.

However, it has to be said that Button at the age of 33 can't afford to get beaten by Pérez any more. Of course it can't be said that driver at such relatively young age is "past his prime", evidenced by the impressive speed of Räikkönen at the same age. But Button is in such age, where he has to deliver and keep up his performance level, otherwise younger drivers would become more attractive for teams to hire.

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McLaren's line up in 2011 was certainly weakened by an under-performing Lewis Hamilton and Button had a better year no doubt. He was consistent and got involved in less incidents to secure way more points. Then we had 2012 where Hamilton completely wiped the floor with Jenson for much of the year and in a more dominant fashion to the previous year IMO. The points at the end of that year barely told a true story to what happened on track in my view. I just want to see Jenson have a good year where he truly out performs his team mate and deals with the problems rather than complaining about the usual lack of grip, can't get heat in the tyres and the odd radio message where he informs the team the car is un-driveable whilst his team mate battles ahead of him. Jenson can be a frustrating driver to watch for me and as much as its a pleasure to see him do well and win, its also something that shouldn't really be a surprise considering the success around him and the support system he has. Being out qualified and performed by an unpredictable Perez really shouldn't be happening for a driver of his calibre and experience. He needs to address the issues himself as the car can obviously go faster as demonstrated. Hamilton has a similar situation at Mercedes although not as bad as he's within a couple of tenths of Rosberg but like Jenson has outperformed his team mate too this season.

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Jenson is better than before his championship, but a little bit more smug, so not as likeable. Still, best of luck to him and McLaren. I would not like to see them weak as Williams.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

The problem they now have is that they don't have drivers that can perform well with anything other than a great car. This alone will make development even worse, especially with Jenson being particular to setup.

It's sad to see really.

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Button was a regular podium visitor in previous years and this year he is yet to get onto the podium. This should tell enough about the dropped level of McLaren, regardless of drivers. And having a top driver doesn't make that much of a different to car development, making it from arguably fastest or joint fastest on the grid to distant 5th best.

Maybe Hamilton could have got an odd podium in this car, but does it really matter? The car is still rubbish by their standards.

I wonder if everyone is thinking too much about Brawns win in 2009 which they achieved by (as Honda) abandoning 2008 and putting everything in development for 2009. Several teams have tried it since and it didn't work!

McLaren try to be the most professional etc. but it isn't working!

It seems like McLaren are having a Renault 2007 style season.

I don't really see what the issue is. Having the occasional bad year is par for the course with McLaren. They have always gone up and down, then up again. I don't see any reason why this will not be the case this time.