Mercedes accused of illegal tyre testing by Red Bull & Ferrari

I've spent the best part of the day checking German, English and Russian publications and some things seem universally agreed on:

1. Pirelli sent out an Email to all teams in Apr. 2012 telling them that the rules allow 1.000km tire tests and if teams were interested they should contact Pirelli.

So far, so good. But that email, which is claimed to have been seen by autosport.com and Motorsport Total, does not mention the use of a current car. Checking against the regulations, every team lawyer worth his salary must come to the conclusion that these tests will have to be done with cars that are at least 2 seasons old. (2011 cars in 2013). So Pirelli satisfied the pre-requirement to offer the test to all teams, but didn't communicate their full intentions.

2. FOTA reacted to Pirelli email and advised teams that in-season tests are not permitted

Only days after the Pirelli EMail another one made the rounds. That one, again claimed to have been read by aforementioned publications, came from FOTA. They advised the teams that an in-season 1.000km test as offered by Pirelli would only be acceptable if the rules were amended after unanimous decision by all teams. Such decision was never taken, so the issue is pretty unambiguous - it's forbidden. full stop.

After Bahrain 2013 1.000 km tests were independently offered to Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull

This is where it gets messy. Pirelli obviously renewed the offer with tentative blessing from FIA, probably citing safety issues as the reason (delaminations). Whether this blessing was a gentlemen's agreement, exists in writing or is purely a product of Pirelli's imagination - your guess is as good as mine. Ferrari accepted the offer and, following the regulations, ran a test with a 2011 car and Pedro de la Rosa at the wheel in Bahrain. Red Bull declined the offer. Like Ferrari they assumed that a 2011 car had to be used and since the 2011 car relied heavily on the trick diffusor, any data gathered with it would have little relevance to their 2013 contender. This is my speculation as I severely doubt RB would have declined a 2013 test if it was legal.
Mercedes ran the test with their current cars driven by Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton from Wed. 15th to Friday 17th of May. This should explain, why the other teams didn't notice anything. Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone. But even if they left their stuff unpacked. It's not any other teams job to keep tabs on when Merc leaves, where for and when.
The real stinker here is, that the same renewed offer was not made to the likes of Lotus, Sauber etc. Pirelli is clearly playing favourites and that alone is every reason to not renew their contract. F1 has enough problems as it is - adding a corrupt supplier to that list isn't really what it needs.

Mercedes claims they didn't gain any advantage over their competitors
Yeah, sure Ross and pigs fly. If Mercedes didn't expect to gain anything from the test, why didn't they use a test and development driver, like Ferrari. They used their current car driven by their current drivers, who covered three whole GP distances on an actual race track partially on the tires that will be introduced in Canada. If nothing else, just the track time for the drivers is worth a lot already.
As far as information are available, there were no FIA scrutineers present, who made sure that Mercedes ran the cars in exactly the same specification as in the Spanish GP, so the chance is they tested some upcoming upgrades. One Italian journo claims they tested a modified rear suspension, but nobody else picked up on that so far, so it is probably just wild speculation by a Ferrari worshiper.

My conclusion
Pirelli did it again. They massively effed up F1 and put the FIA into an impossible situation. They knowingly (and therefore deliberately) breached the rules and Mercedes went along with it. That might be acceptable business practice in some shadier neighbourhoods of Palermo, but not in a multi-million dollar business like F1.
What is FIA supposed to do? If they hand out harsh punishment, they'll alienate one of the two major works teams and one of the three big engine suppliers. If they let it go unpunished RB and Ferrari will go apeshyte. If they hand out a fine, Mateschitz will send a big wad of cash and RB goes in-season testing.
Pirelli's intentions are not that hard to read. They've complained very vocally lately about the lack of testing. When they didn't get what they wanted, they just took matters in their own hands. Well, newsflash Paul, if you want a new contract for 2014, blackmailing your negotiation partners ain't the way to get it. Quite frankly, after the ridiculous 2013 tyres and this latest episode, I've come to the conclusion that a renewal of Pirelli's contract would be catastrophic for F1.

You've taken selective information that's available DJ and jumped to conclusions that not only contain a strong bias but are also defamatory.

For your own sake, I suggest you tone down your 'crusade' against Pirelli before you land yourself in hot water.

Mercedes warned in 2012 there was no scope for F1 in-season testing - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

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Mercedes was warned last year that there was no scope in the Formula 1 regulations for any private in-season testing.As the Brackley-based team awaits news from the FIAabout whether or not its recent Pirelli tyre test is to be investigated further, it has emerged that an email clarifying the testing situation was sent in April last year.
Addressed to all the teams, the FIA and Pirelli and written by the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA), the email makes it clear that a tyre test can only take place if there is unanimous support among the teams

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If the worst comes to the worst and Mercedes are excluded from the championship, it'll put a lot of people off including myself. I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent managing a simple test. Mercedes should have been more open with the FIA, Pirelli should have got the correct clearance for the test to go ahead and the FIA should have been more aware off their own backs. The test wasn't a secret, but the details regarding using this seasons car were not publicised in the correct manner. What a complete mess for three very professional organisations to get involved in even if no clear advantage was obtained. It shouldn't have taken place like this.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone.

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That's quite a statement, do you have conclusive evidence of this?

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Mercedes ran the test with their current cars driven by Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton from Wed. 15th to Friday 17th of May. This should explain, why the other teams didn't notice anything. Merc packed up and sneaked back in two days later, when all others were gone. But even if they left their stuff unpacked. It's not any other teams job to keep tabs on when Merc leaves, where for and when.

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Like Wilko I would also be interested to see your source for this statement as this is not something you could have an opinion on, but must be something you know for a fact. Its a bold statement too and contradicts other claims. Can you offer a source please?

I know Ross Brawn is on record saying the team did not pack anything away after the Spanish GP. Whether he is lying I do not know but know for a fact he said this when spoken to before the race on Sunday.

You're right its not the other teams jobs to keep tabs on Mercedes but I can assure you they all do. They all employ photographers to attend tests and to get up close shots of each others cars and they also have people in the paddock effectively spying on each other. Its the way the sport has always been and the fact the test went ahead without anybody knowing is quite a mean feat. I am by no way defending Mercedes, I made that quite clear before.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent .

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Well, take it as read for the FIA - if a mess is to be made, you can bet they'll do a 'proper job' right enough.

Mercedes knew exactly how the wording, as is the norm from the FIA, was greyer than a sunday afternoon in the John Major household.

Pirelli have already fulfilled their re-mit by offering a test to all the teams. If some cannot even be bothered to respond, why should they be asked again?

Red Bull said they knew nothing about the test with a current car, but in the same breath they said they turned down a test offer with a current car as they believed it would be against the regs. I mean, really, my kids tell yarns more convincing than that and neither of them is 10 years old yet!

There is a safety issue here, Red Bull have moaned the most (because they are not winningy enough) and have missed a trick. Ferrari are being a bit shouty, but more on a clarification level than a knickers in a twist temper tantrum.

All the other teams are keeping more or less schtum because they have their own vested interests.

PS - it's Tuesday today, but I bet the teams collectively would be unable to agree with that unless they spent gazillions analizing the calendar (Pirelli calendar, no doubt) ;)

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

why didn't they use a test and development driver, like Ferrari.

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Driving style, that's why. Cast your mind back a few years to the tyre failures Lewis suffered in Turkey on the Bridgestones. IIRC, only he had an issue severe enough to cause the tyre to fail.

Now, bring yourself back to present day, and the two cars thus far that have suffered the most on the Pirelli's (failure wise that is) has been Merc (specifically Lewis) and Ferrari (Massa).

And looky here, as if by magic, in an attempt on the grounds of safety, which two teams have thus far been asked to assist sort this out......

Ummmm errrrr.

If Pirelli thought that by pounding around in a 2010 Renault pedaled by an F1 cast off, they'd still be doing it. But it has about as much relevence to 2013 cars as my last toilet movement........

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Originally Posted by henners88

If the worst comes to the worst and Mercedes are excluded from the championship, it'll put a lot of people off including myself. I really can't understand how three large organisations were so incompetent managing a simple test. Mercedes should have been more open with the FIA, Pirelli should have got the correct clearance for the test to go ahead and the FIA should have been more aware off their own backs. The test wasn't a secret, but the details regarding using this seasons car were not publicised in the correct manner. What a complete mess for three very professional organisations to get involved in even if no clear advantage was obtained. It shouldn't have taken place like this.

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They won't be. There is too much at stake here;

The F1 float - will be buggered more so than it is now if Merc pull out.
Credibility - F1 needs the big manufacturers in order to showcase its relevance to 'green issues, and hybrids etc.
Morons - The FIA backtracking, yet again, on their own advice will undermine the organisation even more.
Tyres - If Pirelli pull out then F1 is buggered anyway. A new supplier will come in, but with a proven track record on an inability to agree testing, how will they prepare suitable tyres exactly in such a short notice period.

No siree - the FIA has made their bed, now they need to sleep in it......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Pirelli have already fulfilled their re-mit by offering a test to all the teams. If some cannot even be bothered to respond, why should they be asked again?

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Not quite. The Email in parts was published in at least two publications available online (Motorsport Total, Autosport.com) and there is no indication given that the current car was meant to be run, so after a look into the regs, everyone will have come to the conclusion that the test is to be run with a car at least two years old. And that was over a year ago, too. And on top of that it was immediately followed up by an email from FOTA saying that such tests in-season are verboten. Not too difficult to see why most smaller teams didn't react, especially since the email asked for getting in contact with Pirelli if the team is interested. That to me implies not to react if you're not interested. Most smaller teams simply cannot afford to pull an old car out of mothballs ans cough up the money for a three day test, especially if they cannot expect to gain anything from it due to the car's age.
As I understand, the Merc test was the result of a renewed offer made this year and that offer was not made to all teams. At least Sauber, Lotus and Force India say so.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Not quite. The Email in parts was published in at least two publications available online (Motorsport Total, Autosport.com) and there is no indication given that the current car was meant to be run, so after a look into the regs, everyone will have come to the conclusion that the test is to be run with a car at least two years old. And that was over a year ago, too. And on top of that it was immediately followed up by an email from FOTA saying that such tests in-season are verboten. Not too difficult to see why most smaller teams didn't react, especially since the email asked for getting in contact with Pirelli if the team is interested. That to me implies not to react if you're not interested. Most smaller teams simply cannot afford to pull an old car out of mothballs ans cough up the money for a three day test, especially if they cannot expect to gain anything from it due to the car's age.
As I understand, the Merc test was the result of a renewed offer made this year and that offer was not made to all teams. At least Sauber, Lotus and Force India say so.

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Fair enough. But if you are offered to test, and it is NOT stipulated which car to use, and you still can't be bothered to respond, do you have the right to throw your toys out the pram when you don't get asked again?

The teams don't test development parts on an old car - it's pointless. So where does it follow that testing current tyres on an old car is acceptable? It isn't, it's just that the overpaid oiks running the show cannot agree on anything.

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

I think what will come out of all this, are agreements made between Charlie Whiting and Pirelli, that the FIA are unable to justify making. They just don't have the money to spend on legal advice that the teams do.

So, they give out advice to Paul Hembrey and to Ross Brawn on the 1000KM's in a current car, but have not made a watertight case on how a suitable team is to be selected.

Someones nose will always get out of joint.

The FIA have put their foot it (or at least Charlie has, yet again) and now they are trying to pass the buck and making look like Pirelli and or Mercedes are in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

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Of course they didn't - but isn't it a loverly idea. Paints pictures of devious Mercedes employees with thin mustachios!

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Originally Posted by henners88

Is there any source for the claim Mercedes packed up and sneaked back 2 days after the Spanish GP to test? I've been searching and can't find anything on that, but its obviously been mentioned or dj_bytedisaster wouldn't have claimed it I assume.

If true it adds a whole new slant to the controversy and implicates Mercedes were more devious than the stories on mainstream sites are suggesting.

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No, that's speculation on my part for a very simple reason. Mercedes claims they have left their kit standing right there in the paddock from sunday to friday - that's 5 days and nobody noticed anything? And I believe that Ferrari and Red Bull didn't know it, because they would have raised holy hell the moment they knew it. It's simply implausible that everyone packs up and Mercedes doesn't and nobody notices it.

What are the options at hand:

1. mercedes packed up like anyone else and came back on tuesday.
It's a plausible idea. Especially since I doubt they were using an engine and gearbox that count to the alotted contingent of the racing season, so it would make sense to retool the cars and come back.

2. They stayed
Put yourself in the shoes of RB or Ferrari. One of your competitors, that develops a nasty habit of locking out the front-row lately doesn't pack their stuff and looks like hanging out a bit longer. Would you seriously bugger off without leaving someone behind to look what they're doing? It's not their job, but I'm pretty sure Ferrari and RB would do exactly that and in the moment they would have spotted the W04, the excrement would have been launched on a collision course with the rotating air conditioning device.

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

No, that's speculation on my part for a very simple reason. Mercedes claims they have left their kit standing right there in the paddock from sunday to friday - that's 5 days and nobody noticed anything? And I believe that Ferrari and Red Bull didn't know it, because they would have raised holy hell the moment they knew it. It's simply implausible that everyone packs up and Mercedes doesn't and nobody notices it.

What are the options at hand:

1. mercedes packed up like anyone else and came back on tuesday.
It's a plausible idea. Especially since I doubt they were using an engine and gearbox that count to the alotted contingent of the racing season, so it would make sense to retool the cars and come back.

2. They stayed
Put yourself in the shoes of RB or Ferrari. One of your competitors, that develops a nasty habit of locking out the front-row lately doesn't pack their stuff and looks like hanging out a bit longer. Would you seriously bugger off without leaving someone behind to look what they're doing? It's not their job, but I'm pretty sure Ferrari and RB would do exactly that and in the moment they would have spotted the W04, the excrement would have been launched on a collision course with the rotating air conditioning device.

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.

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Is Ted Kravits Spanish team roundup available anywhere - he normally wanders round the paddock team by team, and that would show whether or not Merc were doing headless chickens or lazing around in their laderhosen......

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I simply find it too implausible that Mercedes just stayed put and 10 teams didn't notice it.

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Do you think the other teams knew Mercedes were staying behind to test as outlined in the Pirelli letter but were unaware they were using a 2013 spec car? Perhaps its the smaller details that have got Ferrari and Red Bull in a twist rather than your suggestion Mercedes packed up and returned? We have to remember that even if Mercedes were staying behind to test, much of their equipment like Motorhomes, lorries, and race personnel would have packed up and gone home to Blighty, only leaving behind essentials for running a test car.

Your first mention of this gave the impression it was a fact rather than speculation I must add.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Do you think the other teams knew Mercedes were staying behind to test as outlined in the Pirelli letter but were unaware they were using a 2013 spec car? Perhaps its the smaller details that have got Ferrari and Red Bull in a twist rather than your suggestion Mercedes packed up and returned? We have to remember that even if Mercedes were staying behind to test, much of their equipment like Motorhomes, lorries, and race personnel would have packed up and gone home to Blighty, only leaving behind essentials for running a test car.

Your first mention of this gave the impression it was a fact rather than speculation I must add.

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This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.
If they had played with open cards, the fact that they were running 2013 cars would have been known on May 15th not due to a slip-up in a drivers meeting 10 days later.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.

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I agree with much of that but its too early to claim Mercedes are to blame for the rule break. Ferrari and Red Bull claim to have followed the rules but this could be to add pressure onto Merc in hindsight, speculation of course. This could run deeper than that for all we know. Why were no FIA representatives present when it has been proven the dates of the test were made clear to the governing body? Surely above members of other teams there should have been an official FIA person present. It all seems very strange and I'm sure we'll find out more when somebody writes a book.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

This is the thing. RB and Ferrari are either unbelievably naive or there's more to it. If I was a bigwig at either team, I would have left at least thre people back there to watch the test. After all, Mercedes isn't some stray dog they picked off the street. It's the one team that has threatened both of them so far this year. Ok, lets assume they believed Mercedes were doing a test in an old car. Would you as a Ferrari or RB hotshot shrug it off and go home or would you keep a close eye on how they're doing? Something doesn't add up. The fact that both the Ferrari test in Bahrain and the Merc test in Barcelona went largely unnoticed by both Media and other teams implies that both teams have taken measures to make sure they go unnoticed. The difference is, however, Ferrari followed the rules while Merc didn't.

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Red Bull and others are merely do what my kids do;

"Dad, he pushed me"

"why did you push your sister, Son"?

"because she pushed me"!

"You never told me he pushed you"

"You didn't ask"


All the teams knew the rub, but they might get something out of this if they try the 'heartstrings and soppy eyes' trick.

So now, the FIA will have to investigate their own permission. Do they then take themselves outside and kick themselves in the head ten times if they find themselves in the wrong???????? :p

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

My conclusion
Pirelli did it again. They massively effed up F1 and put the FIA into an impossible situation. They knowingly (and therefore deliberately) breached the rules and Mercedes went along with it.

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That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

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And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

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Originally Posted by AndyL

That's not really the right conclusion. Pirelli didn't break the rules. There are no regulations prohibiting the tyre supplier from testing. The testing restrictions apply to the competitors in the F1 world championship, i.e. the teams. If the testing regulations were broken, it was by Mercedes. Being persuaded or induced to do it by some other party doesn't change that.

Pirelli are bound by their contract with the FIA, and I haven't seen any suggestion that they have broken that.

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And, without everyone bound by a current Concorde agreement, is the FIA contract even valid in respect to the teams.????

It's a bigger mess that Mr Trebus' back yard! ;)

SG, so you're implying that everyone knew what had happened and 10 teams in unison played a nice theatre for us at Monaco? Damn, not even I am that cynical and I don't believe it. Usually I don't give a rats arse about the drivel that falls out of Marko's skull, but in one respect he's got a point. No matter how loudly Merc claim the opposite - by running 3 GP distances with their current cars and their current drivers they gained a valuable know-how advantage, one that RB and Ferrari cannot claw back until Silverstone at the earliest, even if FIA retro-actively legalizes it. Wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to delay or even prevent this test? As it is now Merc will go to Canada as the only team to have already run the tweaked tires on their current car. That's a significant advantage.
Merc doesn't employ retards for engineers. Even with Pirelli not telling them, which tire is which. It would take them no more than half a day to work out, which are the modified 2013 tyres and which are the beta-versions for 2014.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

SG, so you're implying that everyone knew what had happened and 10 teams in unison played a nice theatre for us at Monaco? Damn, not even I am that cynical and I don't believe it. Usually I don't give a rats arse about the drivel that falls out of Marko's skull, but in one respect he's got a point. No matter how loudly Merc claim the opposite - by running 3 GP distances with their current cars and their current drivers they gained a valuable know-how advantage, one that RB and Ferrari cannot claw back until Silverstone at the earliest, even if FIA retro-actively legalizes it. Wouldn't it have made much more sense for them to delay or even prevent this test? As it is now Merc will go to Canada as the only team to have already run the tweaked tires on their current car. That's a significant advantage.
Merc doesn't employ retards for engineers. Even with Pirelli not telling them, which tire is which. It would take them no more than half a day to work out, which are the modified 2013 tyres and which are the beta-versions for 2014.

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10 teams have not complained......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

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FIA has sanctioned 1000km tests if and only if all teams are given the same opportunity to take part in the test. According to at least three teams that hasn't been the case in 2013. That qualifies as a huge honking breach of contract.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

10 teams have not complained......

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No, only five. Only two of those have been protesting, but Sauber said clearly that they'll support Ferrari's protest if something comes of it.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

According to at least three teams .

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Depends on what constitutes a breach? Pirelli clearly feel they have fulfilled their re-mit, and so do Mercedes.........

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Sauber said clearly that they'll support Ferrari's protest if something comes of it.

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Shock horror! Nice cheap v6's next year if they get their tongues in deep enough I reckon! :laugh:

As for this FOTA letter, not all teams are FOTA members, are they????

Sounds like cherrypicking by some teams to me......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Depends on what constitutes a breach? Pirelli clearly feel they have fulfilled their re-mit, and so do Mercedes.........

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How can they feel they have fulfilled their re-mit? They sent out one email last year that was almost immediately rebuffed by FOTA. They've renewed the offer for 2013 citing a FIA permit that nobody has seen yet, but only to some teams. Some is not the same as all. And FIA already released a statement saying that the test should have been offered to all teams on the same conditions and they did not get any confirmation from Pirelli that this has been done. Doesn't look like full compliance to me.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

And the FIA have sanctioned a test in a 2013 car, for 1000KM's. So, who's in the wrong now?

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The cryptic communications between the teams and the FIA so often seem to end up causing a mess don't they. If they made all such communications public it would save a lot of grief.

I don't think it's really clear that the FIA did sanction this test. They say they told Pirelli and Mercedes that a tyre test "...could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team..." but that's not quite the same as sanctioning a specific test. Really it's just restating what the regs already say. So it still comes down to the question of whether Mercedes complied with the regulations.

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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Excellent point. How does one decide, who ran the test? The fact that Mercedes supplied its current racing drivers as opposed to - let's say a test driver like Ferrari did - makes it difficult to me to believe that Mercedes were complete bystanders in this test. Also, who supplies the engineers? And are it the same engineers that work on the cars during the races? IIRC Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?
The biggest problem imho is still Pirelli's role in this. They were the ones asking FIA to sanction this test and they were the ones told to offer the same to all other teams. The most you could ask of Merc is to ásk before the test if Pirelli had really done that and maybe wonder why all 10 other teams weren't there. So from my outside position it looks like a breach of contract by Pirelli and negligence by Mercedes.

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Originally Posted by AndyL

It looks to me like this whole thing hinges on who the tribunal decides actually conducted the test. If it was Mercedes - even with the assistance of and at the request of Pirelli - then Mercedes are in trouble. If it was Pirelli, and Mercedes just happened to supply the car and driver, then it's within the rules, and the worst anyone would be likely to get would be a slap on the wrist for some sort of nebulous "unsporting behaviour" charge.

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That's how I see it. Here is the wording

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver

Pirelli request and conduct the test, Mercedes supply car and driver.

That's as black and white as it gets, due to the vagueness of the FIA wording!

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Pirelli has two official test drivers with F1 experience. Why didn't they drive the Mercedes?

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Wouldn't that be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

They'd spend months letting him learn all the controls first.....

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver

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Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Wouldn't be akin to All Nippon Air insisting Boeing use James May when testing the 787's revised battery setup........

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James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Yep, typical FIA euphemisms. Where do the engineers come from. I doubt Pirelli has engineers, who can run a W04. And thats where the whole shebang falls flat on its face. The moment you bring in engineers from the team the test is no longer run by Pirelli alone and more importantly there is no way to keep them from gathering data unrelated to the tire tests.

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Perhaps JT should suggest Charlie Whiting should, from hence forth, stick a sock in it. But don't put it in writing, cos they'll f**k that up as well! ;)

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

James May is the proud holder of a Private Pilot License that allows him to fly single engined piston aircraft. The Pirelli test driver(s) are GP pilots with a FIA superlicense, who have actually taken part in Grand Prix's.

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Yes, did you spot my sarcasm. The point being that you want someone who knows the cars and can pound round putting max stress on the tyres, not fumbling with unfamiliar controls. Then you need representative driving styles - you can't as Jaime Algesuarie or whoever to 'drive like Lewis' can you? Well, maybe the FIA think so........

From what I understand there are protocols in place where teams provide engineers for tests but certain things are deactivated, to put it simply, to stop the teams recording useful data to use for their own means. Mercedes would have no doubt provided engineers who know how to run the car, but whether they collected data is another matter. Its a bit like when teams are allowed to do promo days using a current car, but software used to collect feedback is disabled. If this is the case for Mercedes in this test, they can't be charged with full blown cheating as such if it can be proven they did not gain any advantage from the test.