Donkey of the Race

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Originally Posted by henners88

The problem is half the muppets writing comments on that page think its Pirelli's fault and fail to see the tyre company are delivering to a set brief. If the FIA were getting complaints I could understand. I don't see a problem with fans showing dismay about the tyre situation but to get personal with Pirelli is moronic IMO.

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This year it is Pirelli's fault. They went too far on what FIA wanted. They produced a tire that self-destructs after 5 laps. That can't be what FIA asked for.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BKF4tZHCcAAlICX.jpg

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I'm still clinging to the hope that Monaco might be a race, but if that is such a farce again, F1 is dead for me. Bahrain was bad enough, pleanty of action, but whoever fought was punished with dying tires. Vettel tire-conserved away at the front, much like fernando today. I thought such things were a thing of the past since the dreary Schumacher years 2000-2004. If i want to see tire conservatism, I'll watch lentil eating eco-lesbians dawdling about Berlin in their G-Wizzes. Thanks.

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2000-2004??? okay 02 and 04 dreary, but 2000 and 2003 were epic. 2001 had great races when the williams didn't break down.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

I don't understand what you mean by this. For me, a tyre should do what its designed to do for as long as possible - if for no lesser reason than safety.

Why do tyres need personalities? How have tyres assumed any role in the race results of an engineering formula?

We are led to believe that the teams are panhandling for engine money so any savings on rubber should be welcomed. Less is more so they say.


The current tyre provider is doing what an F1 bureaucrat has asked for not what a tyre manufacturer does.

"Look at me, I'm Mr. P - I can design a tyre that falls off a cliff right when I say it will. Watch while my companies reputation goes off that exact same cliff."

If the current regime of tyre design by committee continues we'll be receiving square wheels before we know it. :)

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The tyre is doing what it's designed to do and that's to inject a degree of uncertainty into the race. You may recall a few years ago Vettel stopping on the penultimate lap of a race to change tyres for no other reason than to abide by the rule about using both compounds in a race. He could have continued on his original set of tyres that had just done 50+ laps of Monza. Is that what you would prefer? That tyres were completely removed from the equation?

Anybody who watched races at Barcelona in the past will know what happens when tyres are no longer a variable. It's a race long procession where the guy who gets out of turn one in the lead wins the race. I'll take what we had yesterday over that any day of the week. Pirelli need to make sure that drivers are still able to race hard for position and in that regard it would appear that they have missed the mark. They need to tweak the tyres a little, not make wholesale changes.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Anybody who watched races at Barcelona in the past will know what happens when tyres are no longer a variable. It's a race long procession where the guy who gets out of turn one in the lead wins the race. I'll take what we had yesterday over that any day of the week. Pirelli need to make sure that drivers are still able to race hard for position and in that regard it would appear that they have missed the mark. They need to tweak the tyres a little, not make wholesale changes.

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So,the scheming *******s at Pirelli designing a tire that specifically doesn't work for one team and ****s over Mclaren and Mercedes in the process, too is acceptable? People needing to change tires four times (!!) to cover a distance of 300 measly kilometers is normal? The only teams to "understand" the tires are the one big team from the same country as said supplier and the one that provides the test car? This deal stinks even with the most rose-tinted look at it.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

So,the scheming *******s at Pirelli designing a tire that specifically doesn't work for one team and ****s over Mclaren and Mercedes in the process, too is acceptable? People needing to change tires four times (!!) to cover a distance of 300 measly kilometers is normal? The only teams to "understand" the tires are the one big team from the same country as said supplier and the one that provides the test car? This deal stinks even with the most rose-tinted look at it.

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You keep asserting that Pirelli are deliberately designing tyres to hobble Red Bull yet I've yet to see any evidence of this. If you have any, please enlighten us. Are you asserting that Pirelli somehow obtained the design specs of the 2013 Red Bull and then designed their tyres in such a way that they wouldn't work on that car? How else could that have "design(ed) a tire that specifically doesn't work for one team"?

I see that your conspiracy theory has expanded and now involves some kind of Italian nationalistic plot to ensure Ferrari win the title. Again, any evidence for this?

Pirelli using a Lotus (it's actually a 2010 Renault, but let's not quibble over semantics) is a good point and worthy of further discussion. I'm not sure how much of the 2010 Renault is in the 2013 Lotus but it may have played a part in why Lotus are so easy on their tyres. Pirelli are now using a 2011 HRT chassis (Pirelli Buys HRT Formula 1 Car - autoevolution) so whatever advantage Lotus may gained will probably be short lived.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

You keep asserting that Pirelli are deliberately designing tyres to hobble Red Bull yet I've yet to see any evidence of this. If you have any, please enlighten us.

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Maybe Paul Hembery saying in an interview "if we made our tire more durable Red Bull would win by a lap" does qualify? Two times this year he said openly that more durable tires would make RB too fast. That's deliberate sabotage in my book.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Maybe Paul Hembery saying in an interview "if we made our tire more durable Red Bull would win by a lap" does qualify? Two times this year he said openly that more durable tires would make RB too fast. That's deliberate sabotage in my book.

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No it doesn't. It means that Pirelli aren't going to change their tyres to suit one team. If they make their tyres more durable they take away an advantage that Lotus currently have. Why would it be acceptable to help Red Bull yet hinder Lotus at the same time?

The tyres are the same for every team. If Newey is such a genius he'll work out a solution to Red Bull's problems won't he?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

No it doesn't. It means that Pirelli aren't going to change their tyres to suit one team. If they make their tyres more durable they take away an advantage that Lotus currently have. Why would it be acceptable to help Red Bull yet hinder Lotus at the same time?

The tyres are the same for every team. If Newey is such a genius he'll work out a solution to Red Bull's problems won't he?

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So the only team that "understands" the current tires is the one that supplies Pirelli's test car. And why should RB be punished for building a better car than anyone else?`If your kid would turn out highly gifted, would you prefer it to get maximum possibilities or would you prefer that your kid be dumbed down lest it makes the other kids feel bad about themselves?

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

So the only team that "understands" the current tires is the one that supplies Pirelli's test car. And why should RB be punished for building a better car than anyone else?`If your kid would turn out highly gifted, would you prefer it to get maximum possibilities or would you prefer that your kid be dumbed down lest it makes the other kids feel bad about themselves?

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For one Pirelli do not give more data and feed back to a team that supplies them a 3 year old car. You'd do yourself a lot of favours now if you backed up this accusation because right now it sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory to me. The second point bolded begs the question; if Red Bull have built a better car this year than anyone else, why is it not managing the tyres better than the likes of Lotus and Ferrari? You are going to come back now and suggest the definition of Formula One is to have as much down-force as possible and push right to the end. You'll also say Lotus have an unfair advantage by providing the test car to Pirelli and ignore my previous request for you to back up your conspiracy theory.

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Originally Posted by henners88

if Red Bull have built a better car this year than anyone else, why is it not managing the tyres better than the likes of Lotus and Ferrari?

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When was the last time that 'tire saving eco machine' was in the project description of a F1 car?? When was it last time that drivers cruised around aimlessly instead of going flat-out? We admired the likes of Senna for their ability to race flat-out, not for their talent to make a substandard car component last a lap longer.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

When was the last time that 'tire saving eco machine' was in the project description of a F1 car?? When was it last time that drivers cruised around aimlessly instead of going flat-out? We admired the likes of Senna for their ability to race flat-out, not for their talent to make a substandard car component last a lap longer.

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Times change and I refuse to answer this question for you again. Ask me again in a few days and then I'll answer it possibly when you ask me again a few days after that, if you are lucky.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Times change and I refuse to answer this question for you again. Ask me again in a few days and then I'll answer it possibly when you ask me again a few days after that, if you are lucky.

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Sounds like you ran out of arguments. There simply isn't any argument that makes sense of the pathetic eco-runs we're subjected to lately and you know it.

I disagree about Pirelli tires still being the donkeys. Yes, tires wear out too fast. Yes, four stops seem a bit too much. However, the tire wear is now predictable and manageable. Ferrari, Lotus, RedBull, McLaren, etc are managing tire wear just fine. The real donkey is the Mercedes car. Rosberg dropped from 1st to 6th position in the race. I think that's a good indication of what this car is capable of. And then Hamilton strategy was a complete disaster. How do you start 2nd but finish 13th? Holy cow!


Finally, Sutil's pit crew again did something weird, and Sutil didn't finish in points.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Sounds like you ran out of arguments. There simply isn't any argument that makes sense of the pathetic eco-runs we're subjected to lately and you know it.

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If that is the best response you can give or if indeed you actually believe that, I'm not going to argue otherwise. I'm not the only one disagreeing with your opinions on Pirelli so there we are. ;)

Dj Byte you need to calm the fark down with this Pirelli conspiracy crap.

No I won't. Until these apes are gone from F1 I decline to calm down.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

So the only team that "understands" the current tires is the one that supplies Pirelli's test car. And why should RB be punished for building a better car than anyone else?`If your kid would turn out highly gifted, would you prefer it to get maximum possibilities or would you prefer that your kid be dumbed down lest it makes the other kids feel bad about themselves?

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As I said in another post, the fact that Pirelli have used an old Renault as their test car is an interesting point and worth discussing. I think it entirely plausible that Lotus have gained some small benefit from their 2013 car sharing certain design philosophies with the 2010 car. What I don't find plausible is that Pirelli intentionally designed their tyres to inhibit Red Bull. I'm sorry but that's just conspiracy theory nonsense. As an aside, you still haven't addressed my point of why Pirelli should alleviate Red Bull's problems at the expense of Lotus. Do you care to address this point?

I totally reject your analogy between F1 and my children's education. At the end of the day F1 is nothing more than frivolous entertainment and if it no longer entertains me then I stop watching and have lost nothing. My children's education is vitally important to their well-being and I do everything I can to ensure that they get the most from it. The two simply cannot be compared.

Mercedes are donkeys of the race as they clearly have not gotten on top of their tire degradation from last year at all. If anything they have gotten worse.

Pirelli are the biggest donkey with the gammy rubber they provide to the teams.

the indians for screwing Sutil's race AGAIN

they are all using the same tyres as they did last year and the year beofre.If your car or driver eats up his tyres because of a bad set up or chasis, is that a conspiracy??? No, Rearri and Lotus got it right, last year the Saubers were great on their tyres, but crap this year. Pirrelli have gone a little too far this year it seems, but every race has been good except yesterdays.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

What I don't find plausible is that Pirelli intentionally designed their tyres to inhibit Red Bull. I'm sorry but that's just conspiracy theory nonsense. As an aside, you still haven't addressed my point of why Pirelli should alleviate Red Bull's problems at the expense of Lotus. Do you care to address this point?

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If that's just conspiracy theory nonsense, why then has Paul hembery singled out RB twice - after Malaysia and after Barcelona. In both cases he said that RB would run away with the title if they made tires fit to withstand the forces generated by RB's levels of downforce. I think that is unacceptable, because Pirelli is the sole supplier by oder of FIA. So they have to supply tires that work for ALL teams. Supplying a tire that they know doesn't work for one team is simply unacceptable. Yes they would take away Lotus' suspicious tire advantage in the process, but having a tire advantage isn't a right. Getting a component from a supplier that is actually fit for the job is. Just look at the numbers. The cars lapped a mammoth 6 to 7 seconds slower than in qualifying. In F1 proportions that's a week. It was more than obvious that Pirelli had delivered a product that wasn't fit for its intended purpose.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

If that's just conspiracy theory nonsense, why then has Paul hembery singled out RB twice - after Malaysia and after Barcelona. In both cases he said that RB would run away with the title if they made tires fit to withstand the forces generated by RB's levels of downforce. I think that is unacceptable, because Pirelli is the sole supplier by oder of FIA. So they have to supply tires that work for ALL teams. Supplying a tire that they know doesn't work for one team is simply unacceptable. Yes they would take away Lotus' suspicious tire advantage in the process, but having a tire advantage isn't a right. Getting a component from a supplier that is actually fit for the job is. Just look at the numbers. The cars lapped a mammoth 6 to 7 seconds slower than in qualifying. In F1 proportions that's a week. It was more than obvious that Pirelli had delivered a product that wasn't fit for its intended purpose.

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Your post is riddled with inconsistencies.

The tyre supplier doesn't have to supply tyres that work for all teams optimally, by definition that isn't possible given how different the cars are. This isn't a spec series.

Whether Pirelli have failed in their role as sole supplier to the FIA isn't for you to judge since you have no idea what the contract was between the two. Pirelli insist they were asked to 'spice up' the show, in this regard they have probably succeeded at the cost of upsetting 'purists'.

Nor are the tyres unfit for purpose due to the reasons you state, because again that depends on the definition of 'purpose'. Did it spice up the show? Yes. Did it mix things up a bit? Yes. Wasn't that half the purpose of the new tyre contract?

You said that having a tyre advantage isn't a right, that goes with RBR as much as it does for any other team. If they can't get the tyres to work then they need to redesign their car to suit. RBR's failure to use them isn't a result of higher levels of downforce, their car doesn't develop more downforce than other cars, it is simply more aerodynamically efficient.

I have to admit my enjoyment of the race was reduced by the fact that the racing was protective of the tyres but there hasn't been a single season where there hasn't been a need to protect some aspect of the car. For me the huge negative aspect which you haven't mentioned were the multiple tyre failures over the past two race weekends due to debris while the big positive was Hembrey's willingness to accept they had made an error for Barcelona which they would rectify over the remaining season. At least Pirelli takes an active interest in addressing shortfalls, whatever you say of Bridgestone they were never concerned with doing anything to change their tyre plan once they became sole supplier except for ensuring two tyre compounds had to be used per race in order to use up tyre stocks.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

I have to admit my enjoyment of the race was reduced by the fact that the racing was protective of the tyres but there hasn't been a single season where there hasn't been a need to protect some aspect of the car. For me the huge negative aspect which you haven't mentioned were the multiple tyre failures over the past two race weekends due to debris while the big positive was Hembrey's willingness to accept they had made an error for Barcelona which they would rectify over the remaining season. At least Pirelli takes an active interest in addressing shortfalls, whatever you say of Bridgestone they were never concerned with doing anything to change their tyre plan once they became sole supplier except for ensuring two tyre compounds had to be used per race in order to use up tyre stocks.

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There wasn't any debris that caused the tire failures. The tires decomposed because they aren't fit for the purpose. Fictional debris might work in NASCRAP, not in F1. No car left debris on the track when diResta's tire destroyed itself in practice. Neither was there any 'debris' when hamilton's tire disassembled itself at Bahrain. There also weren't any collisions to explain the tire deconstruction in the race or Alonso's deflating tire. Pirelli simply ****ed up.

And your claim that RB should redesign their car - didn't you mix up something? Pirelli is a SUPPLIER. It's their ****ing job to provide a component that works for their customers, not the other way round. I worked for Bosch in 2009. They were a supplier to Audi, developing the servo-steering systems. It was Bosch's job to manufacture a servo-steering that works in an Audi, not Audi's job to redesign their A6 to work with a crap servo. What kind of attitude is that??

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

And your claim that RB should redesign their car - didn't you mix up something? Pirelli is a SUPPLIER. It's their ****ing job to provide a component that works for their customers, not the other way round. I worked for Bosch in 2009. They were a supplier to Audi, developing the servo-steering systems. It was Bosch's job to manufacture a servo-steering that works in an Audi, not Audi's job to redesign their A6 to work with a crap servo. What kind of attitude is that??

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Wrong.

Pirellis DO work for RBRs. I haven't seen a single RBR tyre failure yet a la Michelin Indy 2005 which is where a tyre supplier provided a tyre that really wasn't fit for purpose nor worked for their customers.

What RBR has not been able to do is get the most out of the tyres, a distinction you seem unable to understand. That is not Pirelli's problem especially since other teams like Ferrari, Lotus and FI have managed it. RBR isn't alone, Mclaren, Williams and Sauber have most notably failed to optimise their use of the tyres too.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

What RBR has not been able to do is get the most out of the tyres, a distinction you seem unable to understand. That is not Pirelli's problem especially since other teams like Ferrari, Lotus and FI have managed it. RBR isn't alone, Mclaren, Williams and Sauber have most notably failed to optimise their use of the tyres too.

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Not a single team made the tires work at Barcelona. They were lapping 6 to 7 seconds slower than in qualifying. The "fastest" lap in the race was a massive 5.5 seconds slower than pole position time. Not a single car ran to its potential, they all cruised about like old men in a Volvo.
It was like watching Usain Bolt competing in Dutch wooden shoes.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Not a single team made the tires work at Barcelona. They were lapping 6 to 7 seconds slower than in qualifying. The "fastest" lap in the race was a massive 5.5 seconds slower than pole position time. Not a single car ran to its potential, they all cruised about like old men in a Volvo.

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So? The trick is to get them to work better than the opposition.

Pirelli have admitted they made a mistake and they are going to rectify it. As long as they do and are proactive in that regard I don't mind so much, and in that respect they are head and shoulders above Bridgestone.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

So? The trick is to get them to work better than the opposition.

Pirelli have admitted they made a mistake and they are going to rectify it. As long as they do and are proactive in that regard I don't mind so much, and in that respect they are head and shoulders above Bridgestone.

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They shouldn't have a need to 'rectify' anthing for they shouldn't have ****ed up in the first place and they've known that their 'product' disadvantages several teams since at least Malaysia yet they continued on and waited until they made a complete and utter mockery of a GP until finally reacting.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

they've known that their 'product' disadvantages several teams since at least Malaysia

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Having read many of your posts I do think you're following the wrong sport.

F1 isn't a spec series. Therefore by definition any product that every car must use disadvantages those that haven't understood how to use them optimally.

If you don't want this kind of situation say goodbye to F1, there are plenty of spec series that you'd like out there.

Guys can I ask you to use the Pirelli thread to discuss tyres issues. That will be less confusing for all members and will save me some work. Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Having read many of your posts I do think you're following the wrong sport.

F1 isn't a spec series. Therefore by definition any product that every car must use disadvantages those that haven't understood how to use them optimally.

If you don't want this kind of situation say goodbye to F1, there are plenty of spec series that you'd like out there.

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Back in the day we had more than one supplier. Bridgestone gave Ferrari the tires Ferrari wanted. They might not have been to the exact liking of Sauber, Jordan and Minardi, but they worked just fine for them, too. Michelin provided a tire that fit the McLarens and the Williamses like a glove. maybe not perfect for the likes of jag or BAR, but they worked. It has been decided that now everyone has to use a single supplier and that supplier has the audacity to decide, who is allowed to win and who is not by deliberately producing an inferior product. If you think that today's situation is better, you have a strange idea of car racing.

Edit: sorry, Pino. I wrote my post while you were writing yours

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Originally Posted by henners88

If that is the best response you can give or if indeed you actually believe that, I'm not going to argue otherwise. I'm not the only one disagreeing with your opinions on Pirelli so there we are. ;)

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too true.

I agree tyres are an issue, but to blame the company itself is bizzare.

They are a long running business and previous F1 supplier and have proven they can make decent F1 tyres. This is an issue for the runner of the "Show"

Also sorry Pino. I wrote my reply before reading my unread posts.

Pirelli to make tyres harder from British GP - conspiracy theory proven! Lol.

The Pirellis are fine.....Just ask Ferrari. Seriously. The tires are the same for everyone. Just because other teams can't get it right who is to blame?

Anyway


Donkey of the race? Webber of course. "Hey Mark old chap! When the red lights go out you press down with your right foot."

Guys can I ask you to use the Pirelli thread to discuss tyres issues. That will be less confusing for all members and will save me some work. Thanks :)