Homophobia

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So, if one of them told you they were gay, what would you do?

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Accept it.. but probably pray that it was just a 'phase' he was going through?

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Originally Posted by Zico

Accept it.. but probably pray that it was just a 'phase' he was going through?

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I hate to tell you this, but, if someone comes out, such a scenario is quite unlikely. Hoping your child isn't really gay because you worry about them suffering abuse as a result doesn't solve anything. It subconsciously legitimises homophobia and it does no good to your child. The best option is to accept it and support them as necessary. Don't hope they'll turn into a person they're not.

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Originally Posted by Sprocket

You could say the same about heterosexual couple who for some reason could not have children. They cannot have children naturally, so should they be denied the right too? I don't see the gender of the couple makes a difference.

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Gay people have children all the time, just, and obviously, not with a gay partner. Personally, I never saw what the big deal is about gays. They are, for the most part, just people trying to live their lives. Doesn't bother me a bit. I will say I don't have much use for those who try and flaunt it it my face - doesn't have anything to do with their being gay, as I object to anyone behaving like that no matter the reason.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I hate to tell you this, but, if someone comes out, such a scenario is quite unlikely. Hoping your child isn't really gay because you worry about them suffering abuse as a result doesn't solve anything. It subconsciously legitimises homophobia and it does no good to your child. The best option is to accept it and support them as necessary. Don't hope they'll turn into a person they're not.

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I would accept it and support them but please don't take the hope that they are not a target for haters as a subconscious legitimisation of homophobia... it's just the reality of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Starter

I will say I don't have much use for those who try and flaunt it it my face - doesn't have anything to do with their being gay, as I object to anyone behaving like that no matter the reason.

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Exactly. However, there are those — this is not directed at you — who clearly don't have a problem with people flaunting other characteristics ('manly' toughness, wealth, etc), yet mysteriously have objections to gay people doing so.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I would accept it and support them but please don't take the hope that they are not a target for haters as a subconscious legitimisation of homophobia... it's just the reality of the situation.

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But how does it ever get tackled otherwise? If all parents took your view, and if people stayed in the closet as a result, what good would that do? The homophobes would have 'won', and there would be a lot of very unhappy individuals unable to be true to themselves and their sexuality. I really think your attitude, as genuinely-meant as it might be, is counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But how does it ever get tackled otherwise? If all parents took your view, and if people stayed in the closet as a result, what good would that do? The homophobes would have 'won', and there would be a lot of very unhappy individuals unable to be true to themselves and their sexuality. I really think your attitude, as genuinely-meant as it might be, is counterproductive.

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Perhaps, but maybe we are just both looking at it from completely different perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Sprocket

You could say the same about heterosexual couple who for some reason could not have children.

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Whilst, prima facie, unfair, perhaps that is a natural way to keep population numbers in check.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Perhaps, but maybe we are just both looking at it from completely different perspectives.

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I believe one should always strive for the best outcome for any individual. I can't see how your stance does the best for anyone except those meting out homophobic abuse.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Whilst unfair, perhaps that is a natural way to keep population numbers in check.

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There are plenty of other ways, the main ones being the numbers of single people, and couples who decide not to have children.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I believe one should always strive for the best outcome for any individual.

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Yes, absolutely.. and I did say that if it turned out to be the case I'd still love and support him.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I can't see how your stance does the best for anyone except those meting out homophobic abuse.

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I'm not homophobic but as a heterosexual man naturally I am not 'pro gay'. I just don't see how my stance of hoping my son doesn't turn out to be gay (because he would likely suffer for it) is actually supportive of those meting out homophobic abuse.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I have two boys and hope neither of them turn out to be gay.. not because I have anything against gay people but because (in the West coast of Scotland) I'd imagine life would become very difficult for them.

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I don't think its a bad thing to say that as a preference you don't want you children to be gay, but as long as you can accept whatever you children turn out to be and not do what some parents do and hold it against them. They will be what they will be and its a parents duty to love and support their children IMO. I've heard of a few mixed experiences from friends and family members who have 'come out' to their parents and its often quite difficult process that is met with anger and denial from their parents when its first broke. I think the first thing that goes through the parents mind is the loss of potential grandchildren, likes its their right that has been taken away. Whenever I've asked a gay person if they were given the choice would they be gay, their answer is of course not but I didn't really have a choice. I hope if any of my children in future turn out to be gay that I am sensitive and loving enough to give them the support they need. I think my wife would be due to her brother living with his same sex partner.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Whilst, prima facie, unfair, perhaps that is a natural way to keep population numbers in check.

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I could agree more with that than singling out gay people as not suitable. If it is a case of population numbers I wouldn't argue it is an issue and do we really need more people on the planet. But as a parent I would not like to think my views would prevent any other person from experiencing being one too, particularly based on a factor such as their sexuality.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I'm not homophobic but as a heterosexual man naturally I am not 'pro gay'.

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Why 'naturally'? And what do you mean by 'pro-gay'? The reverse — saying that, as a gay man, I am naturally not 'pro-straight' — would be and is nonsensical.

I would have thought everyone should be 'pro-good human beings', without sexuality coming into it.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I just don't see how my stance of hoping my son doesn't turn out to be gay (because he would likely suffer for it) is actually supportive of those meting out homophobic abuse.

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Because, if someone stays in the closet as a result of fear of abuse, it means those responsible for said abuse have 'won'. Rather, they should be stood up to and their views challenged, rather than those views being the cause of people not coming out.

I don't think its unreasonable for a parent to hope their children are straight, but support whatever they turn out to be. That's not being anti gay its just a paternal instinct. In an ideal world first we want our children to be healthy, happy, and confident within themselves. It might seem selfish but we also want our children to grow up, get married, have children and follow in our footsteps. It doesn't always work out like that but its our duty to support our children and make sure they are happy. That's when the selfish hopes have to take a back seat IMO. I don't think what Zico said was unreasonable to be honest. He gives the impression he'd be a supportive father regardless.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't think its unreasonable for a parent to hope their children are straight, but support whatever they turn out to be. That's not being anti gay its just a paternal instinct. In an ideal world first we want our children to be healthy, happy, and confident within themselves. It might seem selfish but we also want our children to grow up, get married, have children and follow in our footsteps. It doesn't always work out like that but its our duty to support our children and make sure they are happy. That's when the selfish hopes have to take a back seat IMO. I don't think what Zico said was unreasonable to be honest. He gives the impression he'd be a supportive father regardless.

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If I had even the slightest impression that my parents would rather I'd been straight, I wouldn't be happy. I'd also take issue with the 'paternal instinct' bit, since not all parents — thankfully, I might add — have the same instincts.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't think its unreasonable for a parent to hope their children are straight, but support whatever they turn out to be. That's not being anti gay its just a paternal instinct. In an ideal world first we want our children to be healthy, happy, and confident within themselves. It might seem selfish but we also want our children to grow up, get married, have children and follow in our footsteps. It doesn't always work out like that but its our duty to support our children and make sure they are happy. That's when the selfish hopes have to take a back seat IMO. I don't think what Zico said was unreasonable to be honest. He gives the impression he'd be a supportive father regardless.

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The way I see it, hoping your kid turns out to be straight is a lot like hoping he/she turns out to be right-handed.

We don't consider it a problem, though, if the child turns out to be left-handed, so why should a parent regret if his/her child turns out to be gay?

Grandchildren? Well, grandchildren are possible if gays are allowed to adopt.

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

The way I see it, hoping your kid turns out to be straight is a lot like hoping he/she turns out to be right-handed.

We don't consider it a problem, though, if the child turns out to be left-handed, so why should a parent regret if his/her child turns out to be gay?

Grandchildren? Well, grandchildren are possible if gays are allowed to adopt.

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Exactly. I find it all very strange. 'I love you, but I'd still rather you were X'. 'I love you' should never, ideally, be followed by the word 'but'.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Why 'naturally'? And what do you mean by 'pro-gay'? The reverse — saying that, as a gay man, I am naturally not 'pro-straight' — would be and is nonsensical.

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Fair enough... By 'pro gay' I mean someone who promotes that lifestyle, seriously... you don't ever meet genuinely straight gay activists do you?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Because, if someone stays in the closet as a result of fear of abuse, it means those responsible for said abuse have 'won'. Rather, they should be stood up to and their views challenged, rather than those views being the cause of people not coming out.

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I wasn't suggesting anyone stay in any closet.



Thank you Henners!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

If I had even the slightest impression that my parents would rather I'd been straight, I wouldn't be happy. I'd also take issue with the 'paternal instinct' bit, since not all parents — thankfully, I might add — have the same instincts.

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Its not something most parents would admit to their children either though. Good parents don't try and make their children feel guilty about something out of their control.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Fair enough... By 'pro gay' I mean someone who promotes that lifestyle, seriously... you don't ever meet genuinely straight gay activists do you?

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I've never met anybody gay who 'promotes' the gay lifestyle, whatever that means. What, in fact, do you mean? These phrases get thrown around without people stopping to think what they're saying.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I wasn't suggesting anyone stay in any closet.

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In effect, you are, though, aren't you? You would rather your sons were straight rather than gay. If one turns out to be gay, you'd hope it was a 'phase'. It seems to me that you'd be happier if, should one of them be gay, they kept it very much hidden so as to avoid potential bullying. Is this a fair representation?

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Originally Posted by henners88

Its not something most parents would admit to their children either though. Good parents don't try and make their children feel guilty about something out of their control.

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Far better for all concerned if they don't have those feelings at all. To my mind, no parent should care about what their child is in terms of sexuality. Why does it need to enter the equation?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

If I had even the slightest impression that my parents would rather I'd been straight, I wouldn't be happy.

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Even if it was just because they didn't want you to be a target of homophobic people?

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Originally Posted by Zico

Even if it was just because they didn't want you to be a target of homophobic people?

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To me, this is a bit like saying that black people should 'white up' in order not to be the target of racists. You wouldn't argue that, I presume? So, what's the difference?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Far better for all concerned if they don't have those feelings at all. To my mind, no parent should care about what their child is in terms of sexuality. Why does it need to enter the equation?

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I don't think you can help having such emotional feelings but we are all different. We don't have to agree on that particular point but everything else you say and stand for gets my full support. :)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I've never met anybody gay who 'promotes' the gay lifestyle, whatever that means. What, in fact, do you mean? These phrases get thrown around without people stopping to think what they're saying.

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Well as one of the most active people on this thread telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't feel/think regarding someones sexuality I'd say you are effectively promoting it.. no?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

In effect, you are, though, aren't you? You would rather your sons were straight rather than gay. If one turns out to be gay, you'd hope it was a 'phase'. It seems to me that you'd be happier if, should one of them be gay, they kept it very much hidden so as to avoid potential bullying. Is this a fair representation?

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No, its not, I never mentioned anything anywhere about anyone hiding it. Look, I'm sure most other parents on the thread understand where I'm coming from even if you dont. I'm sorry you don't understand it but rightly or wrongly that's my viewpoint on the subject.

I think what BDunnell is getting at is that we should achieve a full acceptance of homosexuality, and not consider it an inferior state of being at all! Am I right?

If such a thing is achieved, all problems disappear.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

To me, this is a bit like saying that black people should 'white up' in order not to be the target of racists. You wouldn't argue that, I presume? So, what's the difference?

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Sigh.. no, I think there is a fundamental difference. Let me put it to you another way... If my partner was say half caste and our child turned out to be white... would it be so wrong of me to feel slightly relieved to know that they wouldn't be on the receiving end of racist comments? That in no way legitimises racists, can't you see that?

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

I think what BDunnell is getting at is that we should achieve a full acceptance of homosexuality, and not consider it an inferior state of being at all! Am I right?

If such a thing is achieved, all problems disappear.

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Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Sigh.. no, I think there is a fundamental difference. Let me put it to you another way... If my partner was say half caste and our child turned out to be white... would it be so wrong of me to feel slightly relieved to know that they wouldn't be on the receiving end of racist comments? That in no way legitimises racists, can't you see that?

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"Heal the world,
Make it a better place
For you and for me,
And the entire human race." ;)

I.e. don't be a coward, dear Zico, and stand up for what you believe in.

PS. See you on the Wor Thread? :D

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Originally Posted by Zico

Sigh.. no, I think there is a fundamental difference. Let me put it to you another way... If my partner was say half caste and our child turned out to be white... would it be so wrong of me to feel slightly relieved to know that they wouldn't be on the receiving end of racist comments? That in no way legitimises racists, can't you see that?

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I do actually think this is a bit wrong, I'm afraid.

Don't misunderstand me — I can see you mean entirely well and that your view is held for a caring reason. However, I think the stance is, as I've said, counterproductive and does nothing to tackle the underlying problems. Rather, it seeks to hope they'll go away.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Well as one of the most active people on this thread telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't feel/think regarding someones sexuality I'd say you are effectively promoting it.. no?

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No.

To promote something, you have to suggest that it's a good thing to be, to own, to do, etc. I'm not doing this at all. People are what they are in terms of sexuality. There is no need to 'promote' the various alternatives.

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

"Heal the world,
Make it a better place
For you and for me,
And the entire human race." ;)

I.e. don't be a coward, dear Zico, and stand up for what you believe in.

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So I'm a coward? lol. Totally uncalled for.

Let me ask what is so cowardly about wanting your child to not have a difficult life, ie; to not be on the receiving end of negative comments whether it be about their creed, colour, sexuality, gingerness etc... of course I'd stand up, defend and protect them because as a parent that is my responsibility to my children, but I can't be there in their lives 24/7 to protect them. The fact of the matter is... unfortunately the world is full of these types of people and that isn't likely to change any time soon.

You're accusations are misplaced, go attack the real hate crime perpetrators.

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Originally Posted by Zico

So I'm a coward? lol. Totally uncalled for.

Let me ask what is so cowardly about wanting your child to not have a difficult life, ie; to not be on the receiving end of negative comments whether it be about their creed, colour, sexuality, gingerness etc... of course I'd stand up, defend and protect them because as a parent that is my responsibility to my children, but I can't be there in their lives 24/7 to protect them. The fact of the matter is... unfortunately the world is full of these types of people and that isn't likely to change any time soon.

You're accusations are misplaced, go attack the real hate crime perpetrators.

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Oh, don't take it so seriously. ;) It was a light-hearted "attack". :)

Though if I were to continue, I would say that not wanting your child to be something that may be attacked (by these other, evil, perpetrators), even though you know there's nothing wrong with it, is indeed cowardly.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No.

To promote something, you have to suggest that it's a good thing to be, to own, to do, etc. I'm not doing this at all. People are what they are in terms of sexuality. There is no need to 'promote' the various alternatives.

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Ok, I'll accept that, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

as I've said, counterproductive and does nothing to tackle the underlying problems. Rather, it seeks to hope they'll go away.

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No, not at all.. it would just be better if there was no issue to arise in the 1st place. As for tackling the underlying problem, your right it doesn't in itself but that does not mean I would not defend my son (I think I covered it well enough in my reply to Eurotroll?)

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

Oh, don't take it so seriously. ;) It was a light-hearted "attack". :)

Though if I were to continue, I would say that not wanting your child to be something that may be attacked (by these other, evil, perpetrators), even though you know there's nothing wrong with it, is indeed cowardly.

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I can think of better examples of a coward... one happens to be calling someone such from behind a keyboard thousands of miles away.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I can think of better examples of a coward... one happens to be calling someone such from behind a keyboard thousands of miles away.

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I don't think my view would be any different if we were face to face. ;) Unless you were a psychopath and much bigger than me. :uhoh: But that's unlikely. :)

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

Unless you were a psychopath and much bigger than me.

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Precisely my point.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Precisely my point.

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What is? That there are psychopaths around who might be bigger than your children? That they might hurt your children if they found out they were gay?

I'm not going to call you the C-word again, but don't you think that's a bit of a phobia, i.e. an irrational fear?

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

What is? That there are psychopaths around who might be bigger than your children? That they might hurt your children if they found out they were gay?

I'm not going to call you the C-word again, but don't you think that's a bit of a phobia, i.e. an irrational fear?

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I'm from the west coast of Scotland where men are men and the woman are often even manlier. As a teenager at high school in the 80's early 90's we had an extremely effiminate classmate who was bullied day in day out, the ribbing, bullying and practical jokes he had to endure can only be described as evil. It got so bad that he soon left for another school. I'm not sure what happened to him after that but he wasn't a very strong person mentally and I'm not sure he would have been able to cope with it continuing throughout the rest of his school years.
To see or envisage my son going through similar at school (If he was gay) is a thought that makes me shudder... is that an irrational fear?

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Originally Posted by Zico

I'm from the west coast of Scotland where men are men and the woman are often even manlier. As a teenager at high school in the 80's early 90's we had an extremely effiminate classmate who was bullied day in day out, the ribbing, bullying and practical jokes he had to endure can only be described as evil. It got so bad that he soon left for another school. I'm not sure what happened to him after that but he wasn't a very strong person mentally and I'm not sure he would have been able to cope with it continuing throughout the rest of his school years.
To see or envisage my son going through similar at school (If he was gay) is a thought that makes me shudder... is that an irrational fear?

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Mhmm, food for thought...

Perhaps you're not such a "c-word" after all... :p :cheese: