How much wins for Ogier this season?
Printable View
How much wins for Ogier this season?
12
8Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
I'd say every rally he finishes - which with the VW's apparent reliability may well be all of them. It's hard to know whether Ogier is an exceptional driver like Loeb was, or simply if the competition is shoddy. I'm thinking bit of both - beyond Ogier you have an average Mikko, a low-in-confidence Sordo, a crash-prone JML and a load of wannabe youngsters who aren't good enough yet. Not good for the champonship really. I think Mikkelsen has a real chance of finishing second in this championship now if he can keep it on the road - been faster than Mads at all levels so far and he seems like the second best driver at the moment. Which is a sad indictment for the lack of competition!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
No way! Mikkelsen has everything to learn, he will be no where close P2 in the championship... He even had difficulties winning IRC without any decent competition...Quote:
Originally Posted by pettersolberg29
I agree with dupanton but for different reasons. AM will be quick as the Polo is definitely 'this year's model. He has had lots of time testing it and he was often close to Ogier in the Fabias last year (a better indication than his IRC campaign) However he will not beat Ogier and JML often enough to catch Mikko and will have to stay ahead of Mads (when the Fiesta doesn't let him down). 5th place is the best he can hope for, especially as he will be frequently 'under orders'Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
5 wins tops!!!!
It's a sad time for WRC. Rallying has been my favourite sport for nearly 20 years. Now that Loeb's gone, I've come to realize that there haven't been any truly great drivers for years (the likes of McRae, Sainz, Mäkinen and Kankkunen). The problem with WRC to me isn't the lack of manufacturers, it's the lack of truly great drivers (Østberg, Novikov, Latvala, Hirvonen... - I see no future in them). Add to this the fiasco in this years Monte CarLOL (where the most important stages were canceled due to inexcusable reasons) I haven't followed the sport anymore. Even during the last ten years when times were really difficult, I always believed that WRC would be able to bounce back, but this year has proved me wrong. Rallying has the potential to be the greatest sport there is, so I'm sad and surprised that I've completely lost interest in WRC.
To pay a seat again?
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo3 GrA, ex Mkinen. Rallycars.info
http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/...ml#post1117137Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
You guys follow off road rallys, too, or just gravel?
some of us :)
I agree that the lack of truly great drivers is a bit of an issue, but the problem with the WRC is that it has killed itself on every level since about 1995, finally firing the killer bullet in 1997. Where do you start. Rallying was awesome, awesome cars in awesome locations doing awesome things. Now you have crap rallies, repeating the same stages over and over again to a grand total of about 300km, horrible, truly horrific ugly little wheezy cars that bare no relation to anything anyone can or would want to buy being driven by nobodies. You have a 'WRC' that had lost the Monte, and no longer has Corsica, the Safari, San Remo, the RAC, the proper Portugal. Short rally's, long rally's, sprints, enduros. Now they are all just sprints. As to what car fits into what class, that is a mystery too.Quote:
Originally Posted by oerigh
The obsession with manufacturers, TV time and David Richards are what killed it. In my opinion you don't need any manufacturers per se, people will always want to take part and will always fins something to drive. Works teams follow when manufacturers realize the value of being seen by a million or so road side fans. I'd ban 4wd and allow something similar to a Group 4/A/N hybrid of modification rules and have a standard production class underneath where its cheap to turn up. Then stand by and watch the next generation of French, Finnish and Swedish drivers come through. There are no drivers because nobody can afford a car! Then you bring back the classic events, in their classic forms and we are back to being somewhere again!!!
I agree completely. They're all decent enough drivers, but I can't get excited about any of them and can't understand how anybody else can either. Because of that, the admiration I ought to feel for Loeb and Ogier is diminished, because what do they have to beat? Coupled with the lack of stature of British rallying, my enthusiasm for the sport really is close to being at an end, and my hopes for its recovery all but non-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by oerigh
People say that the sport had to move with the times; Endurance is no longer fashionable.
Explain that to the organisers of Sebring 12 Hours, Le Mans 24 Hours, Nurburgring 24 Hours, Spa 24 Hours, Petit Le Mans, etc all get massive crowds, and Manufacturer support.
WRC went down the wrong path with the identikit events....but we've been saying that for too long now. The event organisers don't really want to change.
Worse, the manufacturers and, now, the promoter don't want it to change. It's an entirely counter-intuitive attitude. And through it all the FIA continues to show little outward ability to make things better.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Lets be realistic, the romantic Rally times were long ago. But there is small progress last and this year with longer Rallies than recent years, that's good. As for the drivers there are some young talanted at the moment, but I don't see any of them beating Ogier this year for the title. But may be in some Rallies.... Probably only Latvala can do it with speed anyway :)
I do remember reading recently that apart from Loeb & Ogier – the rest weren’t up to it as World class drivers. The problem is that too many in the sport are blinkered, and can’t see it from an outsiders viewpoint. Of the FIA World series – only the WTCC has less talent.
I could live with the shorter rallies if they didn't repeat the stages so much and the cars were good, and likewise I could live with the cars if the rallies were good, but as it stands there is not much to like. Loeb's stats are an irrelavance to me. He dominated after all the greats of the turn of the century either retired or passed away and has never had to deal with local specialists, because they don't exist anymore, or endurance events, because they don't either. Winning in Finland against Hirvonen and Latvala is one thing, winning in Finland against Mikkola, Alen, Kankunnen, Salonen, Vatanen, Airrikala, Blomqvist and the like, like anyone had to in the 80's, is something else entirely. Winning a tarmac rally against a load of gravel specialists and rich kids is one thing, beating Auriol, Saby, Loubet, Delecour, Bugalski, Chatriot, Ragnotti, Beguin, Biasion, Cunico, Cerrato and whoever else, or before that Munari, Nicolas, Therier, Andruet and Darniche is again a different game. And that's before we talk about the Safari. I'm not saying Loeb wasn't good, and wouldn't have done well against previous era's drivers, just that he was never tested.
Would cordoba wrc had better results if somebody like C.McRae drove it at that time?!
Most likely but it seems the car was not that brilliant.
But Canellas had some good times later as a priveteer.
He had indeed, and in one of he most beautiful Cordobas built, but Auriol always complained about it being unstable and unpredictable "like a snake" were his words on one occasion and not even Gronholm himself managed to bright in it. Of course it never had the best of development programs around.
Really liked the car. Especially ibiza kit cars, no F2 could beat it on gravel.
Speaking of Seat, why did VAG choose to make Skoda focus on rally and Seat in touring cars?
I would imagine at the time VAG could only be see benefit from one WRC program, the cordoba proved to be the weaker car and the plug was pulled, but I am only speculating. It was still another three years before Seat went into touring cars.
I would like to know how competitive Skoda could be now in the WRC if they could produce a WRC spec car, the Fabia S2000 would arguably make the best platform for one. And the experience they have gained over the last decade in various levels in the sport. Such a thing I would imagine to be unlikely though, but I do believe that VAG has no problem with inter-brand competition, perhaps why their unleashing Porsche on Le Mans...
Giá t?t b?n hi?n. r?nh ph? mình ch? ký nha. thanks!
Given all the talk and all who speak out about what is wrong with rallying, such as the FIA has done everything wrong for years, or that the rules meant for car classes makes it too expensive to participate in sport etc. etc, we should perhaps illustrate the whole problem (seen with my eyes, of course).
Virtually all sports are becoming more and more commercialized. More and more people will try to make money on
sport and many of them are not even interested in the sport they want to make money from. The main point is to make money. This means that there is very strong competition between all sports to appear in the media, and especially to be interesting for the TV companies that have also become more and more commercialized. In other words, it is all about ratings and marketing value. Something have to be sold and everyone will try make money on it.
Rally also competes with other forms of motorsport (when talking about the viewing figures). Are we talking about motorsport on four wheels are of course all forms of racing the competitor, F1, WTCC etc etc.
Rally in the U.S. For example, compete with NASCAR and IndyCar, and it is not easy.
In addition, rally competes with all forms of motorsport on two wheels.
Sport channels or sport on TV compete with news and news channels, movie channels and movies, television shows etc etc etc.
TV competes with computer, the web and all forms of video games.
What am I up to, all this competition for people's interest, some lose. The loser (rally lovers) has not necessarily done anything wrong, they may not have understood how good the others are.
For example: Loeb were not born. Solberg had been champion three times, Gronholm 2 times more, 2 times Hirvonen, Latvala 1 time, and Ogier already 2 times. All would have been declared a genius and all seasons would have been very exciting. MW and Ford would have been very successful.
But the problem is; Loeb was born, and thereby were all the other failed idiots. ;)
Therefore Loeb is the problem. Another beer please!!!!! :p
Loeb was not the problem, but you probably understand what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donney
Come on guys, no one has a comment. To explain what I meant by the example of Loeb: Loeb is the winner in line with the sports that wins the battle with other sports, or those who promote other sports. Journalists are also competing about or for the sports they love, maybe motorsport journalists are not ambitious enough.
Yeah, we live in commercial world that is a fact, like it or not, I personally don't like it. It is just not right and the idea of sport is lost somewhere with so much commercialization - the competivness in sport is now not on the field, or the road, or the track, but between the money makers. Everyone is trying to make money of it, I completely agree here.
Unfortunatelly Rally can't compete with F1 for example in commercial aspect, F1 is much more attractive for money making, it is just much more easy to make lot of money there, and this will always be so, this is something I don't understand much as it is boring race most of the time nowadays. So looks like Rally has kept something more of the sport value around all commersialization.
Lets go little back in Group B days. At these days looks like the sport has its peak of interest and is understandable. The idea of Group B was exactly this - to attract more people's interest by giving freedom to manufacturers to create as much competitive cars as they can, and it worked for awhile. AUDI made marketing icon Quattro which lasts more than 30 years and appeared very successful technology not only for Rally, but also for track racing later as much as for everyday cars. Peugeot's 205 Turbo actally has saved the company back then from bancrut I think. May be the problem with Group B was that it attracted much more people than expected and this was out of control.
Nowadays rules for Rally cars are restricted and is much harder manufacturer to create a car which will be much faster than others, there came Loeb with his perfection and this made all the difference in competitivness. It is normal some people to lost interest when some man doesn't leave room for competition, so no much interest from media, sponsors, etc, etc. But I can't blame Loeb for that, he is just that good, and this is good thing - someone to try to beat him was a great challenge for other drivers. This is something which only the dedicated Rally fan can welcome and cheer, the masses can lose interest very quickly. They wan't to see different faces with different cars every year probably.
Last 10 years are difficult to evaluate. On one hand there is Loeb with his perfection, on other only 2 manufacturers were competicg most of the time. This is another thing people may loose interest for. They want to see more different cars competing, perhaps even some from same brand their everyday car is.
I think I talk too much :D . Now I'll need more than 1 beer :D
So this is my point of view if I understood the subject right. I personally will always love Rally, no matter what, so there is not much difference to me if it is soooooo much commersialized for the masses. The most money in Rally probably should be made by torism (I think this was discussed in another topic), but also must be more attractive for manufacturers in the first place. I'm glad to have this forum for following my favorite sport. :beer:
The problem is that manufacturers hasn´t understood the marketing value of winning in rallying.
Yes, Loeb won all the time. It became a problem which we couldn´t see during the days of Makinen, McRae, Sainz, Burns, etz, because then we had competition and media was interested.
Then FIA wanted to become the BIG moderator making new era of world rallying, and failed because of lack of good decisions. Only I think, people playing airguitars all of them.
Now the situation is that market decreases, VW as only factory investing BIG money and of course, as a result, winning all the time. Boring and we have a new era of Loebish kind.
And media, well, not more interested what I can see. What happens next? OK hopefully Huyndai comes in, but we could expect both Citoen and Ford out if things going worse...
The problems goes on...
But we are a few fans loving rallying, hopefully with a handfull of competent drivers even in the future, with or without of media, money etz. (Oh I´m thirsty now...)
Interesting, I would be keen to see a Fabia WRC again but of course I have no idea if it would actually happen. Given that the Fabia has gone well in IRC/ERC I would say it would be a very good WRC car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazza555)
I was wondering if VW will use the WRC as Audi did previously (i.e learn from it then move into circuit racing) VW has mastered Dakar and now stage rallying as well with the Polo and Skoda s2000 program. I am beginning to think that VW will be in WRC until it feels it no longer needs to dominate it, then go into F1 as a engine maker (pure speculation).
Yes, me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Loeb 37.303 followers
Colin Clark @voiceofrally3ω
@RallyingUK @danisordo @mikkowrc @sebogier very good chap, but you've missed the most popular! @Yazeed_AlRajhi has over 100k
Amazing what a high quality videos can do against wrc drivers!
The problem that WRC finds itself in is deep rooted and diverse, Loeb was a problem, but you can't blame him. The worst thing that can happen to any sport is knowing the outcome before an event has even started. This is what heppened with Loeb, but it was not his fault as such. He came across the sport at a time when competition was much reduced for a few reasons such as manufacturers pulling out, previous greats either retiring or, sadly leaving us, all at the same time, all the events becoming essentially the same, or very similar so that both he and his car could be perfected for all rallys (what I mean by this is if you drove in the era 1973 - 1995 your car was not going to be perfectly suited to events as diverse as Corsica, the Safari, and the RAC and so you would just have to settle for not winning some, or not even enter) and also local hero's/specialists in equal cars were both priced out and eventually restricted by stupid rules. In a nutshell Loeb could dominate because the conditions were perfect for domination! This reduced interest in the same way Schumachers domination of F1 made F1 less interesting. The rally's themselves have become less interesting and less of an 'event'. They are less interesting because they are shorter and too many are roughly similar. What I mean by less of an event is that between 1974 and about 2000 the WRC barely changed at all in its schedule, so people became familiar with it and the events became a big deal in the local area, drawing in fans, or spectators anyway, who otherwise weren't that bothered about motorsport but watched the rally as it was a spectacular event that passed through their local area. I bet most of the people who used to flock to the Cold du Turini at night didn't follow the rest of the championship, likewise anyone along the route of the Safari and a lot of people who watched the RAC, especially at the spectator stages. But they were there, and they were watching and it made it worthwhile for manufacturers to be involved. Dave Richards and a few other birks in the late 90's decided it was better to try and fit rallying around TV schedules and fancy service areas. And all this was lost, potentially forever. Now the 'Wales Rally GB' changed route and date like I change underwear, and the casual fan, even those in Wales, lose rack with what is going on, and lose interest. That goes without thinking about people who don't live in Wales. To them Rallying effectively has ceased to exist.
I also think it is a factor that the cars are so uninspiring. They may be spectacular in what they are actually doing, but the cars themselves (Fiesta's, DS3's, Fabia's, Polo's etc) are small granny cars that don't make the heart jump, or the imagination of a young boy run, like a Porsche, or a Subaru or a Delta or any Cosworth, an Alpine an M3, never mind a Stratos. The cars need to be bigger and be more exciting models. I still think the cars should be modified road cars. Its easier for fans to relate to that way.
Let it be known that I don't think Loeb was/is/will be a problem,I was just joking. Not about the beer though...
Skoda is member of VW concern. VW decided go into WRC with VW Polo. Fabia is the same platform. VW doesn't want competitor from his own "garage". That's it. They are affraid of technical knowledges of czech engineers...