Alonso and Ferrari - What's in going to take?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

It perhaps wasn't good sportsmanship on Alonso's part but he's never taken defeat very well, remember Abu Dhabi 2010 with Petrov to name a recent instance? Then again its the rumour mill suggesting it was at Alonso's request, but in truth we don't know that as fact. Anyway, I suppose there is a lot at stake and gaining a WDC on appeal is worth a lot to one's own record and the monetary value to the team. You can't really blame them for trying it on.

---

It is disgusting and I can especially if you consider the fact that Alonso ridiculed McLaren about the same thing in 2007. Well, I was appalled from McLaren's behavior then and from Ferrari's actions now... I simply loathe this efforts to fix the championship. I also think that Ferrari are definitely not idiots and knew that they were wrong. Nevertheless they tried, maybe in order to diminish the success of Red Bull and Seb. For me it is very difficult to respect them after that, although I am sure that in the end I will be happy to see them successful - there is always something special about Ferrari.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

It perhaps wasn't good sportsmanship on Alonso's part but he's never taken defeat very well, remember Abu Dhabi 2010 with Petrov to name a recent instance? Then again its the rumour mill suggesting it was at Alonso's request, but in truth we don't know that as fact.

---

The thing that I think makes Fernando look a bit bad, is his tweeting. Those cryptic messages about 'making own miracles on proper rules' made it look like he was all for it, even if he wasn't the driving force behind it. I think we can agree that all drivers don't take defeat very well. Alonso sulks, Vettel complains about god and the world and Hamilton may lose his marbles alltogether (like he did in 2011 with that 'because I is black' comment for instance).
The driving force behind the whole story are the Spanish media, who hypes the raw stuffing out of a few grainy youtube videos. With their fanbase frothing at the mouth Ferrari had now other choice than to ask for clarification. The last thing you want is alienating your fanbase.

The 'asking for clarification' on competitors parts is not strictly the same. It is mainly a tool to have FIA investigate, but ruling it out is not always the only goal. Sometimes it is also used as a tool to get technical information about the concept to copy it at a later time. Since FIA has to explain WHY a part is within the rules, they also need to present technical information, which is then used by competitors.

The whole clarification dance about Vettel's move against Vergne was just a Ferrari plot to silence the raging Spanish fans. They didn't need clarification. If internet users could riddle it out using nothing more than a grainy youtube video and the official track map on FIA.com, one can safely bet that the seasoned veterans at Ferrari knew that there was not case to begin with.
But their Spanish fans went ape-excrement and their star driver fueled the fire with a bit of twitter nonsense, so they had to do something to silence the uproar. That's all there was to it.

henners, both in 2007 and 2012 FIA stewards checked the accidents and had their decisions - to fine Williams in 2007 and not to take action in 2012. With the appeals McLaren and Ferrari desperately tried to win the races in courts and it is disgusting, at least for me. Other people may feel different.
I also don't like that forum maniacs have such vast influence in sports or entertainment. It seems that many people are ready to bend to the wishes of nerds with too much free time (and yes, I am among these nerds too ;) ).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1boat

henners, both in 2007 and 2012 FIA stewards checked the accidents and had their decisions - to fine Williams in 2007 and not to take action in 2012. With the appeals McLaren and Ferrari desperately tried to win the races in courts and it is disgusting, at least for me. Other people may feel different.
I also don't like that forum maniacs have such vast influence in sports or entertainment. It seems that many people are ready to bend to the wishes of nerds with too much free time (and yes, I am among these nerds too ;) ).

---

You're talking in riddles, man. Those youtube videos didn't come from Forum nerds. Well maybe they did, but not too many people would have noticed them. The pressure came from Spanish tabloid papers. Nodoby gives a flying expletive about us forum nerds ;)

well, sorry for my mistake then, although it is worse if FIA bows to biased journos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1boat

well, sorry for my mistake then, although it is worse if FIA bows to biased journos.

---

Well, they didn't change the result of the race. But surely it's right to answer when people are asking questions isn't it?

I think that they answered even before Ferrari asked for clarification, but I'm not sure - I was far from the city and the Internet in the days of the row.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyL

Well, they didn't change the result of the race. But surely it's right to answer when people are asking questions isn't it?

---

Well stated AndyL, this thread has gotten way off topic. Here is my simple though somewhat existential view of the championship.

Vettel was 3 points better than Alonso.

Furthermore; anyone who doesn't think Alonso (Spanish media or any other purveyor of ambiguous prose) didn't do everything in his power to win this "dog-blasted thing, or in some way was cheated really weren't paying very close attention, and or need to get over it. Alonso did himself and Ferrari proud, I'm quite satisfied with Alonso's body of work this season, and I offer no excuses! :cool:

While it might not have such a hard thing to get past him , all of us would put it in context , regarding the respective cars , so I doubt Michael would be too bothered about being shown up , so I'm so sure about "a)" .

As for "b)" , sure , Luca would see the chance for being tripped up by Michael go away , and would be saddened by it , as it's a part of the game . Team orders are legal , and so , I guess , is helping another team , even if you don't stand to benefit yours .

In a wet race there is every chance that Torro Rosso wouldn't make the end , or that it might have tripped into Vettel itself , had Sebastian been backed into it with a defending Michael .

It was one of the last straws that Ferrari could grasp , and Michael retired the position before retiring after the race .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini

Vettel was 3 points better than Alonso.

---

Taz , I think you'd better change that to "Vettel got 3 more points than Alonso" to avoid a "better" argument .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

While it might not have such a hard thing to get past him , all of us would put it in context , regarding the respective cars , so I doubt Michael would be too bothered about being shown up , so I'm so sure about "a)" .

As for "b)" , sure , Luca would see the chance for being tripped up by Michael go away , and would be saddened by it , as it's a part of the game . Team orders are legal , and so , I guess , is helping another team , even if you don't stand to benefit yours .

In a wet race there is every chance that Torro Rosso wouldn't make the end , or that it might have tripped into Vettel itself , had Sebastian been backed into it with a defending Michael .

It was one of the last straws that Ferrari could grasp , and Michael retired the position before retiring after the race .

---

I've just started a new thread to discuss this so please continue there :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

Taz , I think you'd better change that to "Vettel got 3 more points than Alonso" to avoid a "better" argument .

---

I will not :angryfire ;) :p :
I will let my post stand for what is worth, at face value, with no inclination to defend it against any and all attacks. As I stated it is an "existential" comment, but since you rattled my cage I would like to add a caveat to my post; Alonso went down fighting in style. He was pushing a twitchy car to the max in wet conditions, and I can say without fear of recrimination that he drove his a$$ off in the last race, and all season. I can't ask for more than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

fanbase frothing at the mouth

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

the raging Spanish fans [...]
Spanish fans went ape-excrement

---

I honestly don't know where you get your info from, unless it's the Berliner kurier or the Bild :laugh:

Not even Spanish TV's Baldy was frothing, and he's in love with Alonso - fact ! :andrea:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

I honestly don't know where you get your info from, unless it's the Berliner kurier or the Bild :laugh:

Not even Spanish TV's Baldy was frothing, and he's in love with Alonso - fact ! :andrea:

---

I've visited a few websites. The sky sports comment sections and those on YallaF1 - one of the first Internet rags to run the Vergne video - were chock full of spaniards, who wrote stuff that would get you an instant ban in here. Mind you, the british were close seconds. Since I generally steer clear of German media, because they're just one big Vettel circle-jerk, I mainly read british papers and many of the comments there made me think it's 1942 ...

None of those are Spanish media, but fairy muff :andrea:
I steer clear of German rags, British rags and Spanish rags too except for a laugh... and my regular reads are BBC.co.uk, Spiegel Online and Elpais.es for a fair and balanced view of the world.
For an unfair but at least balanced view of F1, I watch the races on German, UK and Spanish TV (yes, often simultaneously :laugh: ) :)

BBC has great columnists but some of the fans who post there are appalling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

For an unfair but at least balanced view of F1, I watch the races on German, UK and Spanish TV (yes, often simultaneously :laugh: ) :)

---

Man, you must be really resistent to pain :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by donKey jote

None of those are Spanish media, but fairy muff :andrea:

---

I checked out El Mundo and As as they were reported to stir the fire most. My Spanish is nowhere near as good as English or Russian, but it was enough to gather that they threw quite a bit of fuel to the fire.

El Mundo is very much Jeckyll & Hyde. On the one hand considered one of the mainstream serious papers alongside El Pais for example, but on the other it still promotes conspiracy theories (like ETA being involved in the Madrid bombings and a police cover-up to steal the elections from Aznar) just to sell.
As for As ( ;) ) it's nothing more than the Real Madrid version of Marca :laugh:
I for one rarely take a look at either of them, except for a laugh when there's some controversy going :p :andrea:

What Alonso needs ? A car as fast as the Red Bull...it would be exciting then ;)

Sometimes I wonder that all Alonso needs is a car that would put him at least on the second row. His starts are very good and he is pretty fast in race trim. However, this year's Ferrari has not delivered that. He was starting from what.. 3rd, 4th.. 5th rows. That was still good enough to fight for the podiums but usually not for the win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pino

What Alonso needs ? A car as fast as the Red Bull...it would be exciting then ;)

---

it would be game over. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

I think if you gave Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel equal cars we'd see some very intense racing.

---

That may well be the case next year. With the rules as stable as they are, there are no new loopholes for A. Newey to exploit, so Ferrari is likely to catch up and the McLaren already is as good as the RB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

McLaren isn't going to help Lewis next year. Its looking likely he will be one of the best drivers fighting in a middle field car, unless the Brackley team have developed a better car from earlier this season.

---

They have been developing it "for more than 12 months now". Brawn said that in an interview that was published on the website of German racing journal "Motorsport Total", 90 minutes ago. If there's interest I can post a translation of the article.
So what it sounds like to me is:

a) They knew as early as dec. 2011 that the 2012 challenger would be a dog.
b) They knew that they wouldn't retain Schumacher and started to design the 2013 car extremely early with the knowledge that they would try to get a star driver for '13.

After all Brawn has experience with that method. Extremely early start of development was, how the Brawn came to be the dominant car in early '09.
So maybe there's hope after all.

And there's also hope in a different aspect. In another Interview for the same paper, Horner admitted that "Adrian is a bit behind on schedule with the RB9", because they couldn't afford to stop development of the RB8 until the last race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

They have been developing it "for more than 12 months now". Brawn said that in an interview that was published on the website of German racing journal "Motorsport Total", 90 minutes ago. If there's interest I can post a translation of the article.

---

That would be great! Or you could just post the link and we can use Google translate (but their translation is absolute rubbish most of the times). :p

I don't think it was too much of a surprise that Mercedes have been developing a car for next year. They haven't hidden the fact that personnel and mnagement have been brought in.

They also had a reasonable driver that was not capable of challenging for the championship and one that is over the hill. Not much incentive for continued improvement of the 2012 car.

It's logical that they would get a top flite driver in and push for a package that can challenge in 2013. I predict it will be very competitive in Lewis's hands.

Here's the translation of the full article. The original can be found HERE

New Silver Arrow - No more postponed debut
The track debut of the new Mercedes will most likely happen at the very first day of testing in 2012. After restructuring there can be no more excuses

The Formula 1 season has barely ended and already preparations for 2013 are in the final phase. The finishing touches are put to the new cars, which have been developed since May at least. Meanwhile the designers are already working out the plans for updates in the next season. But the real pressure will be on from February 05th, when the first day of pre-season testing will start in the Andalusian Jerez de la Frontera.

In February 2012 Mercedes showed up for the first tests with the old model MGP W02. The W03, which would win the first GP in the hands of Nico Rosberg three months later did not debut before the second test at Barcelona. The goal behind this postponement was to buy more time for design and windtunnel testing - an old trick of Red Bull ace Adrian Newey. But in 2013 the new model shall be running on all 12 winter testing days. "The car will be at the first test, at the first day, except we hit unforeseeable circumstances," team boss Brawn announces.

He further explains that the new car "has been in work for 12 months or longer". Back then, after the disappointing 2011 campaign, internal restructuring had started. A result of that are the current technical team of Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliot as well as an upscaling of windtunnel models from 50% to 60%. Brawn remembers: "Twelve Months ago we realized that we have to strengthen the operation."

"Geoff Willis joined us this summer and we have hired other people as well. We have updated and improved the windtunnel. This all has been going on for some time already." Main focus of the changes has been the aerodynamics. "We decided to restructure the aerodynamics team. It always takes a bit of time after that until a team really works as a unit." Mercedes felt that from the middle of the season, when their development went in reverse at top speed.

"Loic Bigois, who had been leading the team has left in April/May. Then we had to wait for Mike Elliot to arrive, who was still at Lotus at the time. He arrived a little later [than planned] and we didn't make a good job of bridging the gap between Loic's departure and Mike's arrival," Brawn admits. "At the same time we switched from a 50% to a 60% windtunnel as well as a few other aspects of the aerodynamics team. Maybe we could have handled that phase a little better."

Bus, since Elliot arrived and the windtunnel has been calibrated, the restructuring is finished. That means, while there might have been some slight turbulence in the earliest planning phase of the 2013 project, there can essentially be no more excuses for the new car. All at Brackley, Brixworth and Stuttgart know: In the forth year a significant step forward has to come.

Speaking of Brackley and Brixworth: The cooperation between chassis and engine departments is meanwhile working flawlessly, which could prove a substantial advantage for 2014, because then the new revolutionary engine formula will come into effect and the integration of chassis and engine will become even more important. "The working relationship betweenb chassis in Brackley and engines at Brixworth is developing well. That is very important for 2014," Brawn says. "2014 is a huge opportunity and that will be, when we will show our strength as a unit."

---fin---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I don't think it was too much of a surprise that Mercedes have been developing a car for next year. They haven't hidden the fact that personnel and mnagement have been brought in.

They also had a reasonable driver that was not capable of challenging for the championship and one that is over the hill. Not much incentive for continued improvement of the 2012 car.

It's logical that they would get a top flite driver in and push for a package that can challenge in 2013. I predict it will be very competitive in Lewis's hands.

---

:\

Mercedes sing that same "early development of next year's car" tune every year, with the same average results.

The only difference in 2009 was the interpretation of a 'gap' and a 'hole'. Even then they lost out in the development race, like every car the team has produced since.

I don't expect 2013 to be any better than their 2012 campaign but I would happily be proven wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matthew

:\

Mercedes sing that same "early development of next year's car" tune every year, with the same average results.

The only difference in 2009 was the interpretation of a 'gap' and a 'hole'. Even then they lost out in the development race, like every car the team has produced since.

I don't expect 2013 to be any better than their 2012 campaign but I would happily be proven wrong.

---

The difference between the 2009 car and every one since was a billion dollars.

The more interesting question is, why in the name of all that's holy did they hire Loic Bigois in the first place :o That man has been in F1 since 1990 and has designed exactly two decent cars in that time (the 1997 Prost and the 2009 Brawn) two out of 22 is not exactly track record to attract a job at a major manufacturers team :s

The funny stuff is that the rules to 2013 are really similar to 2012. If they are developing the 2014 car with the hope to repeat the 2009 success, I can buy that, but for 2013... I don't think so.

Easy! a faster car!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F1boat

The funny stuff is that the rules to 2013 are really similar to 2012. If they are developing the 2014 car with the hope to repeat the 2009 success, I can buy that, but for 2013... I don't think so.

---

Sorry to say but the aero rules will stay mostley the same as next year for 2014.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mia 01

Sorry to say but the aero rules will stay mostley the same as next year for 2014.

---

Sorry to say that you are wrong.

The nose will be lower, the front wings will be smaller and smaller rear wing angle.

Alonso needs something Ferrari have forgotten in recent years. They need a complete team dedicated to the car and drivers.... yes driverS... both of them. If they quit treating Massa like a dog (or whatever driver becomes the next #2) they will end up with better car development as well as team building. Not to mention the points that driver can take from Fernando's opponents.

The win at all costs approach of Ferrari is costing them IMO. They need to get back to the roots of what made them great and the passion that inspired such attitudes.

Alonso drove a great season without doubt, and the car hurt him. But much like Felipe missing out on his WDC, he and the team need to celebrate such a close season, refire the passion that got them there, and try even harder in the following season.

I think it is going to take a bit more than just a better car. Ferrari needs to work in several areas.

First and foremost they need to get the wind tunnel fiasco sorted out. It that is done car development should be back to its best.

They also need to rethink their attitude towards Massa. I mean that's a man, who came to within one point of winning the title for them in 2008 and they still treat him like the red-haired ******* child. A lot was made of Massas appaling early season form, but some of the blame has to go to the team. Leaving a driver as emotional as Massa dangling without a contract until the last possible moment is going to hurt self-esteem. Once he had that monkey off his back, he was a serious contender again. Had Ferrari done that two months earlier, the title might have been in Maranello now. Eddie and Rubens got their fair share of #2 treatment, but at least in the early season they were often allowed to race for themselves and they were never left to their own devices as Ferrari has done with Massa. Shafting a driver, like they did in Austin does not go by without mental impact on the driver.

They need a Massa on his best next year, because he needs to steal points from Button, Vettel and maybe Lewis or Kimmi. They won't get that if they treat him like something you scrape off your shoe.

I think Ferrari need to book an appointment with Dr Ruth as they cant stop shagging Brazillians. Saying that, I think Massa and Rubens before him only have themselves to blame. If they don't want to take it up the exhaust, then stop picking up the soap.

As it is, Massa knows he's paid lapdog and should concentrate on doing a better job of it. it was only a threat of losing his position that seemed to shake him out of his slump and put in some good drives in the last part of the season. He needs to accept his job and do his best, not keep moping about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I think Ferrari need to book an appointment with Dr Ruth as they cant stop shagging Brazillians. Saying that, I think Massa and Rubens before him only have themselves to blame. If they don't want to take it up the exhaust, then stop picking up the soap.

As it is, Massa knows he's paid lapdog and should concentrate on doing a better job of it. it was only a threat of losing his position that seemed to shake him out of his slump and put in some good drives in the last part of the season. He needs to accept his job and do his best, not keep moping about.

---

I think you oversee a few things here. First of all, he lost the WDC in 2008 literally in the last corner and half a year later he suffered an almost fatal accident. That's enough to break a Klingon's will add the punching-bag treatment of Ferrari on top of that. I'm not surprized he's been in a funk for so long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I think you oversee a few things here. First of all, he lost the WDC in 2008 literally in the last corner and half a year later he suffered an almost fatal accident. That's enough to break a Klingon's will add the punching-bag treatment of Ferrari on top of that. I'm not surprized he's been in a funk for so long.

---

If he was that affected, don't you think they wouldn't have signed him again or are they getting all sentemental. They weren't all soft and fluffy when they eased out the Tifosi hero, Schumacher, so why go all soft when it's someone that hasn't brought them a championship?

No. Massa is the Poodle and gets paid to act in a supporting role. I'm fed up of all the guff about his accident as it doesn't wash any more. He's back and has driven some good races but when he gets unmotivated, it's always the "oh, he had an accident" excuse. Funny how when he's threatened with losing his contract, he suddenly finds some form again ;)