The safari rally, it was a great rally !
They should replace France rally by Corsica rally or by Rallye des Cévennes.
San Remo was a cool event too...
And a rally in Belgium should be great with a lot of fans !!!
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The safari rally, it was a great rally !
They should replace France rally by Corsica rally or by Rallye des Cévennes.
San Remo was a cool event too...
And a rally in Belgium should be great with a lot of fans !!!
Wrong on both counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Well as someone who attended the 2007 & 9 editions I'd like to see Rally Ireland back at a sensible Spring or Autumn date. The route needs to be Dublin / Belfast (1 start the other finish) HQ based -NOT Donegal) With a little imagination a 4 day rally using the Circuit of Ireland roads (Day 1&2) then either Galway or Kerry for Days 3 & 4 with a Pheonix Park Super Special Powerstage would present an entirely different spectacle to the mainland Europe tarmac events while preventing the Donegal hotel cost phenomenon (greater choice). It certainly attracts the crowds!
Can I be mischievous, and suggest a 'RAC type' event for the British round? Including the 'Mickey House' stages - to get Joe Public & family interested. Whatever they try, the current event isn't doing it.
Five days, sixty stages?
impossible... i am always rightQuote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
this is what the era needs the slow motion rallying of the 70s...Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
more tarmac!!!
Japan?! They have no market with the cars for sale. Fans yes, huge fan base but what the car companies want is different to what the FIA want.... ughhh
I say get rid of Australia, NZ is MUCH better!
South Africa would be good and Brazil. Don't forget Jordan! Bring it back! :D
Jordan... what is the purpose of having a rally with three spectators on stages besides to make the king happy?
$$$£££€€€ no? They can inject somemoney... But now Qatar might do it!
Are You really believe that it makes WRC healthier? I don't.
Agreed, Rally GB is an insult to the former RAC. This years format is just pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Damn man you made me think back to when I heard of rally. They were BIG adventures. Old Monte Carlo with its starting points all over all of Europe. Old Tulpen rally, Old Alpine, old Safari, real RAC...and oddly they had hundreds of entries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josti
Now..everything is little short sprints, zero endurance element, near perfect cars that are virtually identical except headlights and paint...
I say its the adventure vs spectacle dichotomy. Everything has been sacrificed for the "spectacle" killing the wonder at the adventure..
And while big jumps and sideways action is a trat to the eyes, the power of imagination at the scale of BIG adventures is better.
The imagination is bigger than just a 0.3 seconds flash in the TV.
Maybe if we didn't know or had never heard of the giant cross continental or all round the whole country type events, we'd be better fan-boys and could argue about FIA cheating for Loeb "because the FIA is French" and that sort of brilliant analysis.
The thing is you have to have balance between the logic and the heart...
Yes Jordan is useless but we need an event there because people support the sport financially... we also need Gemany, Spain, Italy, France and The UK because they are huge markets.
USA, Japan, China and Russia should be tested to see the response, if the people there do not seem interested we can bin them...
The rest like Finland, greece, New Zeland, Australia ect are basically in, because of tradition.
So we must clarify in this thread the reasons we want an event in the sport....if we have 10-14 events all based in tradition then we are not going to have any sport in a few years time, so we must find the balance.
I am awesome !!!
Surely there is room for a 'middle ground'. Some events are suitable for 'Sprint type' events. Other, Monte, GB, Acropolis, etc are more an Endurance test. I don't have a problem with having sprint events like Finland last week. However, that needs to be balanced by having events of an Endurance element. So, start Thursday lunch time and have 3 1/2 full days of action, with days of 07:00 - 20:00....Isn't that feasible?Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
Does anybody think we need to think about having a return to some midweek events? In cycling the 3 big Grand Tours don't seem to have a problem with crowds on weekdays....Having events solely on a weekend means clashes with bigger more popular sports.
tommeke_B: - This rally would be very dangerous...Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
danon: - Any rally has a touch of danger on stand by. Dodgeball is safe though.
tommeke_B: - could cause a lot of problems...
danon: - Could, Would... Nostradamus!?
tommeke_B: - If those drunk idiots at "the tree" cause an accident it's "an accident at the rally"...
danon: - Accidents happend. It is the nature of motorsports.
A tip - Never insult human beings you do not know by calling them "idiots".
Meet (people) first, talk (about people) last!
tommeke_B: - This has nothing to do with rally...
danon: - It has more than anything to do with rally.
The Balkan Mountains in a combination with the four season weather conditions
are ment to be rally driven and are the natural habitat of the rally sport by default.
If you have ever seen a Balkan you'll get my point.
tommeke_B: - the video is mostly about drunk spectators, in some places this problem is covered with the name "atmosphere"...
danon: - It's a part of (any rally event) the game. Proove me wrong! Name an event - booze free!
As the car needs fuel so the fans need a beer or two to cheer up along the long waiting stage to start keeping the "athmosphere" flat out.
tommeke_B: - The few shots filmed on stages don't look so special...
danon: - Any given shot makes a difference.
Either special or not, it's in the eyes of the beholder!
In this particular case all but you.
tommeke_B: - Let's wait and see after the IRC Rally this year, to see what it's really worth...
danon: - For you it may worth a dime, for others - a dream come true!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ChwW...layer_embedded
Bulgaria had a WRC round two years ago, which had some nice roads, but it was hardly groundbreaking.
That was completely different event around Borovets.
I know, but it proves Bulgaria is out of consideration for a while. I remember it wasn't a hugely succesful excersize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
That might suggest why Sliven is preferred for IRC this year. The mountain roads around it are the best Rally roads in Bulgaria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josti
True, but we must never forget that this is still a sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
We've dealt with this issue before. Better promotion for the sponsors is gained by showing well run, well supported events with acclaim than poorly run, poorly attended events with no prestige.Quote:
Originally Posted by "
Been done already. Nobody came. If the sport is not strong in a country without WRC no overnight sensation will occur due to the travelling circus arriving for a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by "
Tradition, quality of event, and the standard and marketability of the show.Quote:
Originally Posted by "
First part - agree. 2nd bit - nonsense. The sport will survive very well on the strong foundations already laid by those 'traditional' entities you seem so eager to replace. Expediency is the real danger.Quote:
Originally Posted by "
A legend in your own mind !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by "
I do not think that attendance plays a major role anymore.... maybe in the service park but on the actual stages i doubt it.
As for Japan, USA ects i think we need to give time to countries with strong track culture... lets make a 5-year plan for them without any rotations then we can draw results.
what is the point in changing locations withina country or introducing events with little marketing value for the manufacturers ?
It had a few things going for it. For one, the two-day sprint format in 2011 was fantastic, and proved that you can run a rally without having to resort to tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Secondly, the surface was pretty unique: man-made roads built especially for the rally, then sprayed with water from the Dead Sea, so the high salt content gave it a diamond-hard finish. It was low-grip, high-speed, and just looking out the windscreen during the in-car shots, you could barely see where the road ended and the scenery began.
The Rally of Jordan might not have had a high spectator turn-out, but you can't make decisions about the future of the sport based on what will get the most spectators. That's how we ended up with half a dozen super-special stages per rally, shortened TV-friendly routes, and the ridiculous super-rally regulations. The appeal of rallying lies in taking cars that look like cars you see on the road every day, and then throwing them at the most difficult roads you can find and the toughest conditions therein. Making decisions based on what will get the most spectators will only kill that spirit.
Difficult does not mean impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
But does the WRC need "groundbreaking" right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Josti
Personally, I think it is in a perilous position right now. Citroen is dominating, Ford has not committed to a works programme for 2013, Mini has been completely mismanaged, and while Volkswagen is entering, there aren't a whole lot of details about their plans. Meanwhile, the promoter is in trouble, there are only a handful of customer teams that can make it to events on a regular basis, and there are probably half a dozen other problems with it that I've overlooked.
With regards to the calendar, it's a little stale right now. I appreciate Jean Todt's efforts to encourage "endurance" events, and the Monte's presence is always a good thing, but there has been very little change. Just look at the rallies in France and Germany: they're not very far away from one another, so there's not a hell of a lot of difference there. The WRC needs to grow a little to show that it can overcome its difficulties, and I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would be to re-introduce events that have been run (and discontinued) in the recent past. Bulgaria probably isn't the ideal candidate, but revivals of the Rally of Poland and Japan in particular would probably do a lot of good.
In fact, I think the WRC needs to look at making flyaway events more worth the teams' while, since they can be so expensive. To do that, I'd suggest partnering events that are close geographically and bring the dates closer together so that the teams don't have to fly back and forth. Run Rally Mexico in conjuction with an event in America. Rally Argentina could be twinned with an event in Brazil or somewhere else in South America. And Rally New Zealand/Australia could be run alongside events in Japan or Indonesia or Thailand or wherever.
I know, I do difficult things every day..Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
But who in Colorado is going to:
Find the roads?
Deal with US Forest Service to secure roads?
Risk a couple of hundred thousand dollars just with bureaucratic hassles?
My buddies Grant Hughes? He and his wife just had their first baby 2 weeks ago, his car is apart, he has no money.
My friend Dave Kern?
The guy I just 30 minutes ago shipped his new suspension for the car that the cage isn't done in?
The garage mate to Kern, who has one event and is waiting for me to finish a revision on his suspension (that he mistakenly bought elsewhere is is all wrong with 30mm less travel than a stock Subaru?)
There's no clubs in America and without motor-clubs, there is no foundation for anything but the very small time, low level, totally amateur events with have so much trouble pulling off.
That's why Canada and Mexico have so much better chance: like everywhere civilised, the foundation of motorsport is a network of motor-clubs, and before you buy a licence in Canada, you first join a club.
No clubs, no foundation. No foundation, then it better be a "product' that can be "marketed to" what in USA is called "the target demopgraphic", which really is not illiterate but rather a-literate 12-26 year old white males living in the suburbs..
That explains the flat hat/ soul patch, 45 minute productions for a 2 second jump or the whole carefully scripted, carefully produced and edited Gymkhana foofery, and this travesty called X-games and Globular Rally-crozz. Scripted, packaged, meaningless poo-poo (boy the word filter is strict round here) that is interesting to only those who know nothing except what they've seen on their TV or Game-boy screen.
You think 1 American in 20,000 could locate Monte Carlo on a map? Then know where Stavanger or Warsovie or Athens or anywhere for that matter is, much less be able to imagine the challenge of driving across the whole of Europe in January?
1 in 20,000..Pffft! I am overly optimistic as always. 1 in 100,000 maybe..but maybe not..
If it wasn't on TV or took more than 2 lines of text, it's too much bother.
Other than this I gave you a "like" for the rest of your thoughts :D
You make this out to be Mission: Impossible. But America has its own rally series, Rally America. And while it might be fledgling and largely unheard-of outside the States, there is a precedent here for a domestic rally scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
Now, perhaps Colorado is a poor choice. I don't know; I don't live there. I simply chose it based on satellite and topographical maps of the area. I saw Denver, a city of 600,000 people hard up against the Rocky Mountains. I see tarmac, gravel and snow. I see Pike's Peak nearby, and I think to myself that maybe there is something going for it here. Maybe there is something to it that could jump-start a WRC event in America. I look at a map, and this is what I see as a potential stage:
gmap-pedometer.com
Okay, that's straight off the top of my head. I didn't look too closely at the details, so it may well cut houses off. But the satellite view shows these nice, wide open tarmac roads that meander between hills and around valleys. And there are more of these roads everywhere you look; you could comfortably make an event that the drivers would love, just be browsing Google Maps. Don't you think the average American would love to be able to say "Hey, we put on a world-class event that the top competitors in the world loved"?
It's probably better than my other choices, too - Los Angeles/San Francisco, Seattle and Rapid City in South Dakota, all of which i was looking at based on topographical maps.
I think Americans are much smarter than you give them credit for. But even if they aren't, how do you know that having a world-class event won't light up a spark of imagination within them? They see this Rally of America, and they get inspired by the spectacle of it and start following the sport, and in the process, learn about Monte Carlo.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
I think the WRC should consider trying to acquire some of the rounds it lost due to the GFC, which are already well attended by fans/amateur drivers. I was thinking San Remo, Tour de Corse could fit the bill. Maybe also Circuit of Ireland and Ypres as these are legendary events and as WRC is supposed to be the top of the rally world it is decidedly odd that these events are not part of the regular roster.
But it's not that simple - the WRC doesn't just acquire whatever events it wants whenever it wants to acquire them. All the events have to go through the WRC candidature process, and do rally organisers necessarily want to do that? Take, for example, the Ypres Rally. You point to it being a "legendary event", but if the organisers wanted to join the WRC, they would have to go through the WRC candidature process, which might not sit well with the orgnaisers because it would be a case of "we know you're a legendary event, but you still have to go through the selection process like any other rally".
I think the ideal calendar would be as varied as possible. To this end, I would suggest the following:
1) 16 events per year, with eight "core events" that are run on an annual basis, and sixteen "rotational events" that alternate year in and year out. I'd even go so far as to make mandatory route alterations from year to year (ie 30% of the rally - or an entire day - should be run on roads that have not been used previously or within a set number of years; perhaps two or three).
2) A more-global spread. Rallies need to be run in deserts, tropical jungles, on vertiginous mountain roads and flat-out gravel. Every event should pose a unique challenge, something that makes it instantly recogniseable, and if this means going somewhere - like Jordan - where crowd numbers are never going to be high, then so be it.
3) A variety of event types. We need sprints like the 2011 Rally Jordan, and endurance races like the 2012 Rally Argentina. And intermediate events like everything else. I'd even look into the possibility of having rallies that are only run at night.
I am very familiar with Rally America Inc, NASA Rallysport and US Rally Championship, as well as California Rally Series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
And familiar with the process whereby Doug Havir "bought" the SCCA Rally series from a very ironically mis-named Kurt Spitzner.
And I competed regionally and did a few National Championship events between 1984 and now..even won one National round in our 2wd class
I even was entered in our round of the WRC when it returned to the USA as the last Group B event in history, 1986 Olympus Rally....I was in all the Swedish papers, last man to rally a Saab 96 in WRC.
Prior to beginning rally in America in 1984, I had spend most of the 1970s in Europe, mostly Sweden, later France racing moto-cross, eventually full time for 2 seasons.
So familiar with rally in USA and Canada, fairly familiar with most West European rally scenes, speak or spoke lots of languages, worked in several countries all motorsport oriented.
There IS a rally scene in USA, and it is extremely small time and amateurish..
Example "US Rally Championship" just cancelled its Delaware Rally in NY state: less than 1 month to go and they has 11 entries.
Within hours of NYC and tens of millions of people and they had 11 entries..
Where will the marshalls, timers, road block crews etc come from? Rent-a-boys?Quote:
Now, perhaps Colorado is a poor choice. I don't know; I don't live there. I simply chose it based on satellite and topographical maps of the area. I saw Denver, a city of 600,000 people hard up against the Rocky Mountains. I see tarmac, gravel and snow. I see Pike's Peak nearby, and I think to myself that maybe there is something going for it here. Maybe there is something to it that could jump-start a WRC event in America. I look at a map, and this is what I see as a potential stage:
gmap-pedometer.com
Quite frankly I don't care or give much thought to what 4 guys might say, we have serious problems and I spend a lot of my very limited time helping getting cars into the woods in regional level events.Quote:
Okay, that's straight off the top of my head. I didn't look too closely at the details, so it may well cut houses off. But the satellite view shows these nice, wide open tarmac roads that meander between hills and around valleys. And there are more of these roads everywhere you look; you could comfortably make an event that the drivers would love, just be browsing Google Maps. Don't you think the average American would love to be able to say "Hey, we put on a world-class event that the top competitors in the world loved"?
There is no manpower, no entries with Homologated cars, no point..
LA is in its own little world with barely 20 entries and an ornery gang of people with their own ideas about car classes that don't match any other classes in the other companies class structure..Quote:
It's probably better than my other choices, too - Los Angeles
And they can't get roads, and what few roads they can get are blinding fast desert roads with few turns and occasional wash-outs..Boring, no infrastructure.
Worse than LA although all the NoCal guys are OK guys, all 10 or 11 total people arond who are sporadically active.Quote:
/San Francisco,
It ain't what it once was... EXTREMELY difficult to to impossible to get roads due to a made up excuse about dirt clods hitting pregnant baby gay salmons and hurting the fishies.. I know a forestry company road engineer who told me where the real sedimentation comes from but they use the pregnant baby gay salmons as an excuse.Quote:
Seattle
Nobody wants to hurt them pregnant baby gay salmons..
Oddly its not an issue to the salmons just to the South of us in Oregon or noth in BC, Canada,
I love maps, I just spent 40 minutes looking at the lower reaches of the Dnieper river.Quote:
and Rapid City in South Dakota, all of which i was looking at based on topographical maps.
But maps don't show us where the people with the skills and financial resources to even begin planning an event are to be found.
I know them, I have known them for 50+ years, allover the country. I am daily on the phone with people from most regions and across Canada (I make really good affordable rally suspension and build very good rally motors.)Quote:
I think Americans are much smarter than you give them credit for.
I think there's a famous quote yep found it "
http://www.quotedb.com/images/authors/henry_mencken.jpg
http://www.quotedb.com/images/clear.gif "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." -
I stand by my estimates..
because it didn't in the 70s and I watched it not light up anything when we had 3 WRC rounds right here so, from first hand experience..of then and comparing the average rallysport fan then: adult late 20s to late 30s, aware, literate, to now 12-26, flat hat fanboi appallingly ignorant (Dood. Block is like World Champion like since forever, dood") or (Yeah Subie rules, didya know Subie was the first turbo 4wd car in WRC, Subie rulez, dood"Quote:
But even if they aren't, how do you know that having a world-class event won't light up a spark of imagination within them?
America, fawk yeah.
No they get inspired so they buy some app for the telephone and pound the puddin to it..Quote:
They see this Rally of America, and they get inspired by the spectacle of it and start following the sport, and in the process, learn about Monte Carlo.
How does that make more people in the woods, more cars, more event volunteers?
It hasn't and the pushing of the low level US stuff as "a like totally like amazing spectacle" for the past 12 years since that horribly ironically mis-named guy Spitzner has about destroyed US rally.
Please make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. Like, say, Moldova.
For example, you ask where marshalls, time-keepers and road block crews will come from in Denver, and you present this as proof that a rally cannot take place in the United States. But regardless of whether I wanted to start a rally in America or in Moldova, I would be faced with the same problem, which disproves your theorem that these are challenges unique to the United States.
Likewise, you point to the failure of the Press-on-Regardless to capture the public attention as another barrier to a successful rally being established. But it's been thirty-eight years since the Press-on-Regardless was a round of the WRC, so how on earth is anything that happened there and then relevant to here and now?
So please, make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. I'm dying to hear it.
First question, why bring up a country you know most likely nothing about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
And about your last paragraph, which I quoted above. He used analogy, saying that it didn't make any major change when the rounds were in US and why should it be any different now. (Sorry if I understood your point wrongly Janvanvurpa)
Why do you assume I know nothing about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
You answered with a question to a question ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
I don't assume, I doubt and you haven't said anything to prove me wrong so far.
Something different from Europe and south America.........THE SAFARI RALLY IN KENYA.
Can I just ask how Australia got the WRC back? Perth was government supported MAINLY with a state (West Australian) Tourism company pulling the rally in Perth. The local government too. But how did it as a "legendary event" in the WRC already get it's feet back in the WRC years later, on the other side of the country? Shame it left Perth.... but how come another rally didn't take its place? How did it come back and go to Coffs Harbour? Because there was a WRC in Australia before it gets priority over other candidates who would LOVE and truely be better off with a WRC round ie Poland, Ypres etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Give me the people in Denver's phone number and email addys.
You give me some assurance there will be hundreds, not the couple of dozen that exists in the1000km radius of Denver now.
And You tell me that they will show up at the next 7-10 events to work controls , learn the skills, develop a routine,,----oh WAIT!
There are no rallies anywhere near Denver now..., nearest rallies are 700 to 1000 km away..
Sorry I vaguely recall reading some utter crap somewhere with a distinctly similar "Just look at the maps" "logic"..
I will not waste any further time "bebating" with somebody a) who hides their real name--and is thus not a real human in mu eyes but a joke, and b) no location..
You should note that the best rally forum in USA was founded one evenuing in my driveway cause i have a pot of room and about 3 times the experience of the next guy so5-6 guys were here working on their nice Volvos and Fords.
We made one inflexible rule at that forum we call Rally Anarchy - Don't Panic and that is REAL NAME, REAL LOCATION---and age..
And it works....no bullsheeeet, and even better, no moderators...
So I'm done with you unless I know who and where I'm talking to and you listen and stop talking "you get them in Denver". That is so ridiculous that I doubt you are an adult.
Done.
No, not interested in "argument" I am too busy making parts for rally boys cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red bull
Yep! absolutely! And with whatever format the local organisers decide.
All Power to the Sovi !---uh wait,
Some Power to the Local committees!
(dayum just doesn't sound as inspiring as "All Power to the Soviets!" does it?)
Well the truth is that there was a difference: exhaustion from overwork because such a shortage of volunteers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
You can only maintain enthusiasm so long and after 4 years of diminsihing entries, less and less attention from local media--zero from National media, and down to maybe --seriously 100---200 spectators in last year---and many just got tired.
I ran a small specialty shop then building and rebuilding Saab 96 and 95 V4 cars, most into something like 1969 RAC spec---except final drive ratio!---and had a lot of customers in Seattle. In '85 a few voluteered to work Olympus, in 86 when driving. I saw maybe 35 of my customers---and it hit me there were in a way "fans", and I was shocked, by end of 88, none were volunteering.
Oh and we lost maybe 1/4 of the cars that guys with big stars in their eyes had built on the way UP the wave..Dropped out never to be seen again. So for example in 85 a National might have 50 cars total (regional included), by 89 there were events with under 20 entries. Insane.
I think the Manx would make a great addition, as long as the organisers said no SuperRally like Monte Carlo did. Would make for a very interesting spectacle. Although whether the island is big enough for the WRC crews on top of all the usual entrants could be a challenge.
Otherwise San Remo, running as a true mixed surface event, ie half the day in tarmac trim, then half in gravel. Not just changing tyres either, but having complete setup changes - this would add a real unique element to the championship just like it used to be in the 80s and 90s.
Whether or not I know anything about a country like Moldova is inconsequential to the point I am trying to make: that the challengesjanvanvurpa presents as being unique to the United States, are not as unique as he makes them out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
But for the record, I actually know quite a bit about Moldova. I deliberately chose a country that I was familiar with, but one that other people might not necessarily know too much. That way, if someone said "If you want to hold a rally in Moldova, where are all the officials going to come from?", I could use my knowledge of the country to assess whether or not they had made an argument that fit the condition I set out. So far, that hasn't happened yet.
And you did assume that I don't know anything about Moldova. Why do you think I picked it out of the two-hundred odd countries in this world when I was trying to make a point? It was certainly no coincidence.