Driver and Donkey of the British GP

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Originally Posted by christophulus

I'm inclined to agree, I don't think there was any malice in what Maldonado did, but it was careless. Once again, being overly aggressive has cost him and Williams some valuable points.

It's a bit like Hamilton last year, you just kind of knew that if it was a close pass then there was likely to be contact (especially if Massa was nearby). I just hope Maldonado can calm down in the second half of the season and accept when something's a lost cause.

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I'm not sure "careless" is exactly the right word .
He has admitted he completely misjudged the grip , so , essentially , in the heat of the moment , he got it wrong .
And , it had gone wrong , admittedly , from the very start of the move , as the fronts first locked , and the snap lifted the rears enough for them to lock , and they came together .

These two guys have history , just like those two guys you mentioned .

Both drivers were involved . Both were vying for position . Neither relented .

And , by the way , I guess unsurprisingly , Mark Gillian of Williams agrees with me .
It was a "racing incident" .

“Both Pastor and Bruno had very good starts and were pushing hard in the initial stages of the race. Unfortunately Pastor was involved in a racing incident with Perez on his second stint which lead to a premature pitstop for a damaged rear-right tyre which ultimately compromised his race. After the race the stewards issued Pastor with a reprimand which as a team we accept.”

Driver: Fernando. He's the best on the grid.

Donkey - Pastor. He isn't aggressive, he's reckless.

Driver - Webber. He took the fight to who many consider the best driver on the grid, and showed him whos boss. I am also pleased with Massa, he did a really good race, I was a bit disapointed he wasnt on the podium. A mention to the shoe today aswel, he had a really good day and Rosberg had a really bad one, about the biggest difference we have seenwith these two.

Donkeys - Bunson for his terrible qualifying. And custard, for careless driving and costing Perez his race. Kobi aswel for flattening his pit crew.

Mediocres of the race - Hamilton, I expected better from him. And Senna, they just never really took off at this race. And what hapenned with Rosberg??

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

Driver: Fernando. He's the best on the grid.
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I wasn't having a dig at you there, we just posted at the same time :p

Driver: Grosjean - 32sec behind after lap 3, 17sec behind at the finish. Enough said.

Donkey(s): Maldonado and Perez combined. Maldonado because he's now crashed in every single race weekend since Barcelona. Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , by the way , I guess unsurprisingly , Mark Gillian of Williams agrees with me .
It was a "racing incident" .

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Hardly an unbiased view, though. :p

I do agree with you insofar as it wasn't such a blatant foul as we've seen from Pastor at, say, Monaco; but it was still very much his fault and the stewards agreed. I guess they too thought it wasn't the world's most serious clash as they imposed an extremely light penalty.

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Originally Posted by Bruce D

Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.

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Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

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Originally Posted by Bruce D

Driver: Grosjean - 32sec behind after lap 3, 17sec behind at the finish. Enough said.

Donkey(s): Maldonado and Perez combined. Maldonado because he's now crashed in every single race weekend since Barcelona. Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

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I agree with what you're saying but the fact is with guys like that you need to box clever and outsmart them in their own game. I'm sure he could have pressured Maldonado into sliding wide and nailing him up the inside. My point was more Perez put himself at the mercy of a nutter. In the case of Hamilton, he didn't allow enough room for a nutter.

Maldonado should have got a back of the grid for the next race

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Alvaro Bautista will be put to the back of the Sachsenring MotoGP grid as a
punishment for taking Jorge Lorenzo out of the Dutch TT.

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Drivers: Webber, Alonso

Donkeys: Rosberg; Hamilton Button Diresta

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

Drivers: Webber, Alonso

Donkeys: Rosberg; Hamilton Button Diresta

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I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

Driver: Webber
Honorable Mention: Alonso, Gosjean, Massa
Donkey: Schumacher

This is a fantastic high speed track with many opportunities for a clean pass without DRS. Overall, the race its was fantastic. There was a lot of action in the beginning. I was kind of hoping to see Webber take the fight to Alonso, but by mid-race I was confident that Alonso was going win. And look how it changed in the last five laps of the race. I am impressed with how Webber meticulously stayed in pursuit of Alonso and saved his best for the last few laps of the race.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

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I'm unsure what Button, Hamilton or Rosberg did either. They just had bad cars.

My donkey unsurprisingly - Maldonado. He is donkey of the year, no doubt. A complete handicap driver.

Drivers of the race - Alonso, Webber and Grosjean. Schumacher had a good outing to passing Hamilton with a few laps remaining, proving there is life in the old fox yet.

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2

Donkey - Alonso, used up his tyres much more then he should have had,

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I think Alonso did very well actually. Clearly, those that started on the hard tyre were at a disadvantage, but to only lose one place on fading tyres is not a big issue. Consistency is going to win the championship this year, and thus far, Alonso is streets ahead in that dept.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

since Pastor has had some recent events with questionable maneouvres , he gets punked again when Perez has a mic in his face .

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Oh dear oh dear - you didn't it see it like that last year when a driver had some recent events with questionable maneouvres

Nontheless, Henners is spot on, even if your opinions from driver to driver are biased, you are entitled to them! :p

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sucks to be Pastor right now , with everyone piling on .

So , all you guys just want him to roll over and let Sergio punk him into giving up the line ?
Pah !

Have a look at the incident again .
Neither driver gave way , and they ended up trying to take up the same space .
It's not as if Sergio didn't know he was there .
And , it should be pretty damned obvious that Sergio knew that Pastor would not give up the place easily , since he's complaining about his reputation here .

He went outside .
He knew the risk .
He knew he was going into a corner with a car beside him .
He knew who was in that car .

How do you say "Cry me a river" in Spanish ?

Maybe Pastor should get some stick over incidents in the past , but not this time .
That was a racing incident .

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Largely agree with this - maybe Maldonado should have allowed a little more for the cold tyres that he was on, but he knew it was important to keep Perez behind while he got them fully up to speed. If you compare it with the Maldonado Raikkonen incident, Maldonado did exactly the same (except didn't lose the rear), and Kimi was forced to go off track, but no-one is complaining about that as far as I know.

The Monaco incident was definitely a bad one and should have been penalised much more heavily (and he has form withthe same thing on Hamilton in Spa), but in Valencia he was slightly in the wrong but the car wouldn't turn as the plank was on the kerb. Try imagining this one with Hamilton on the outside overtaking Maldonado in Valencia, would he have done any different? I doubt it. Button, Alonso, possibly Vettel might have as they take a longer view.

WT

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

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Not condoning bad behaviour either, but Maldonado is suffering for making iffy descisions that turn out as
bad ones.

Interesting you quote Senna and Schumacher as being hard but fair - both were entirely ruthless (and totally morally wrong), in the way they won world championships - Senna deliberately in crashing into Prost in Japan, and Schumacher in crashing into Damon Hill in Australia - both totally stank but the FIA did nothing.

Senna has some argument in the way that the FIA bent for Prost the year before, but Schumacher even tried the same on Villeneuve but failed.

Maybe Pastor is just looking to attract the attention of BTCC team bosses........ :)

WT

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Originally Posted by Dave B

I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

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significantly slower than his teammate in home race

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

significantly slower than his teammate in home race

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He only just failed to get out of Q2 - which also claimed fast drivers like Rosberg and Perez - and in the race made a reasonable start before getting caught up in an accident and sustaining damage. I'm not sure that any of that justifies being a Donkey, but I respect your opinion.

His team mate started 14th (admittedly partly due to a penalty) and only converted that into 12th by the finish - hardly a stellar performance.

MHO; Di Resta made a questionable maneuver at the start of the race that really bit him in the butt. He is otherwise a very disciplined driver, and I had him tabbed for a points finish. :angryfire

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Schumacher in crashing into Damon Hill in Australia - both totally stank but the FIA did nothing.

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Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker.

Can open. Worms everywhere :p

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Originally Posted by wedge

Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker.

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Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

Murray Walker always was in thrall to Schumacher.

Worms indeed!

WT

Driver - Webber
Donkey - Maldonado

Webber and Pastor. I'll let you figure out which is which

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Originally Posted by wedge

Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker.

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Adding Murray "dumb dumb" Walker's name to the list of Schumi defenders in that incident severely damages and weakens his case.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

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Who exactly asked Damon to put his car in a place where there was zero room for him and never was going to be any?

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

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Maybe you were busy with the sausages?

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm sorry you felt you needed to be sarcastic to get your point across. Oh well.

And yet when Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi and Webber make 'outside' overtakes on the same corner, all have enough respect for their opponents to leave each other room and not carry too much speed into the corner. Perez mentioned the other drivers are concerned by Pastors behaviour in such situations and you yourself said 'he must have known Maldonado wouldn't just give it up'.... He's getting quite a reputation isn't he? I'm not calling for bans or anything like that for Pastor, but I do think he needs to listen to his peers because respect works both ways on the racetrack. Pastor could find himself in a similar position in future and next time it might be him running out of room or having an intimate encounter with a tyre wall. Time will tell whether these silly errors will be learnt from IMO. I hope he does, because he's got the potential to be a damn fine racer.

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See , this is the thing .
I see two silly errors here , and you see only one .

Of course one was Maldonado's mis-judgement of the grip inside . He admitted to having completely screwed up .
The other was Perez thinking he had his opponent beaten , and then demonstrating clearly that he knew that Pastor would not give up so easily by crying to the press about his previous behavior . There isn't just a little bit of irony there .

Both were driver errors , resulting in a racing incident .

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

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How did you enjoy your first GP? Apart from terrible weather.

As for the Hill & Schumi incident.

Its up there with Prost & Senna.

And if we get into that, we will be here for 100 pages+.

Having said that i am still going to say a line or two on it.

I think Schumacher did do it on purpose, however Penalties were not widely in force in 1994 and crashes were a larger part of the sport. Therefore as much as it might choke some people, he always had that option open and chose to use it. That is why he won so much as he was driven like Senna in 1990, to do everything to win.

Being upset by it is pointless. Schumacher won that title then Hill didn't.

In 97 he lost out while Villeneuve won.

Its tough and its always a possibilty in racing.

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Originally Posted by Wasted Talent

Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

Murray Walker always was in thrall to Schumacher.

Worms indeed!

WT

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Hill went for a banzai move. Hill saw gap but Schumi - as Walker argued - was entitled to take the racing line and the door was always going to close.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Hill went for a banzai move. Hill saw gap but Schumi - as Walker argued - was entitled to take the racing line and the door was always going to close.

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Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

I have to play a moderator role now and tell you to quit with Hill-Schumacher discussion from this thread. :)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet.

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So if a driver sees Maldonado in his mirrors he should just jump out of the way and let the Williams through?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

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This is all getting very silly now.

Every damn day, we complain here that there isn't enough overtaking in F1.

What you have basically said, as I understand it, is don't overtake because the guy because he's doesn't have the cool not to lose it??

Maybe we should just ban overtaking?
Hell, lets get rid of the race entirely, shall we?
Qualifying seems safer.

Oh wait no, Maldonado has gone after people in qualifying too... Geez.

Ok, its cool that he can't keep his cool.

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Originally Posted by Koz

This is all getting very silly now.

Every damn day, we complain here that there isn't enough overtaking in F1.

What you have basically said, as I understand it, is don't overtake because the guy because he's doesn't have the cool not to lose it??

Maybe we should just ban overtaking?
Hell, lets get rid of the race entirely, shall we?
Qualifying seems safer.

Oh wait no, Maldonado has gone after people in qualifying too... Geez.

Ok, its cool that he can't keep his cool.

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I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with Bagwan. He is entitled to his opinion but his opinion is so warped to reality that it beggars belief really. I don't really even bother reading his posts anymore, but I can imagine, based on what you've written that he has probably blamed Perez for the Maldonado accident. He either is either a WUM or, more worryingly, he might actually believe what he posts. Just be thankful that the FIA don't really ever see things his way. It's along the same lines of him expecting Lewis to yield to Maldonado in the last race because Maldonado is aggressive so he should just let him go. The same guys were on the bash Hamilton bandwagon last year through his bad patch slamming Hamilton for being over aggressive saying he can't just expect drivers to let him through when he tries to bully his way past i.e. his incidents in Monaco.

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Originally Posted by aki13

How did you enjoy your first GP? Apart from terrible weather.

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It was fantastic. The wettest weekend at Silverstone for over 10 years and I come back with the worst sunburn I can remember.