I think that Randy is not doing nothing without aproval of the family, perhaps he is a scapegoat for his bosses and their bad decisions. Teams are having a meeting in Detroit, does that mean white paper again. Just a thought.
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I think that Randy is not doing nothing without aproval of the family, perhaps he is a scapegoat for his bosses and their bad decisions. Teams are having a meeting in Detroit, does that mean white paper again. Just a thought.
As were mine. See yaQuote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
Some posters here seem to have been living in a universe parallel to this one. ; )
Randy Bernard has slowly but surely taken this series and put it back on the rails to respectability. He had the sense to make changes when it was clear Tony George's fair haired boy Barnhart couldn't manage the actual racing, and he got all the owners on the same page to get a new car on track. He is trying to manage engines, which isn't easy, which I guess has him in hot water. This will pass if the owners of the series (Mari Hulman and the sisters) realize that changing horses is a bad idea. This series is really starting to trend upward in the eyes of the race fans, and now we require patience and small changes.
People, look to NASCAR this year and notice the griping and complaining about the racing. People want to see good racing, and Indycar has provided that. This year's Indy 500 was about as good as any I have seen in a long time. The TV package looks better, the car looks decent, races well, and they are getting a handle on stability with promotors and track owners. IF the Hulman-George clan can't see all this, then they deserve to be holding the bag. Randy hasn't been perfect, but he knows bull ****e after being around them in the rodeo world. This tempest in a teapot shall pass. The owners are often rich guys with no sense of the big picture. Which is why all successful series are run by benign dictators....Randy needs to be given the authority to be tougher, and he must BE tougher.
When was the grid in aggregate better? I don't think this field is head and shoulders above any other - but I'd say it is the best field of aggregate talent since the early 1990's for sure (and this is most certainly qualify as "in years"...). I will go so far as to say that there is a good chance we will look back o this field over the next 2-3 years as one of the best ever in 20 years - but only time and future results will determine the validity of that supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Attendance and tv have been cruddy for years - and I suspect that regardless of what anybody does those are facts that will remain for years to come ...
The other stuff you cite sounds like auto-racing to me. These are always price over-runs. There is always some sort of rules controversy. If there weren't these thing the sport would be as boring as watching cars drive in circles all day ;)
The more I think about it, without all the BS the whole lot of us wouldn't be here talking about Indycar at all.
This series is far from perfect ... And frankly Randy's experiment with the 5 outside racers free tickets etc at Vegas las year was a complete and utter flop on par with any and all the blunders in aowr history
But for a poster to compare tony to Steve jobs might be the silliest comment ever written
I wouldn't even compare him to the likes of Steve Ballmer, much less Steve Jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
But like I asked, who would these village idiots replace Bernard with? Jargon Joe Heitzler, Andy Evans, Andrew Craig? How about Flavio Briatore? I hear he's not all that busy these days? Maybe they could get Bernie Madoff to run it from his jail cell.
At least at the plant level, I've had a hand in firing more than a few incompetent managers over the years. But one thing I learned early on, even when dealing with the biggest goof ball in the world, before you fire him, you better have SOME idea of who you're going to replace him with. As smart as these owners are *supposed* to be about business, do they not realize this basic and fundamental concept???
So for anyone here who wants to see Bernard gone, would you please offer up a name for a replacement?
IndyCar Series CEO Randy Bernard says he has team owners' support | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
This is new, hmm, no Penske? Well ,you be the judge.
Do you feel the same way after the fiasco that was Detroit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
A lot of people today were saying that you can't blame RB for what happened today. I guess the old adage, "the Buck Stops Here" doesn't apply in this type of leadership
what part of this fiasco did Randy have direct control of?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
The track conditiion, nope. The tv switch, nope.
Gary
Of course he had control of the track conditions. Wasn't there a inspection? If there was then he failed. If there wasn't then he failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
So Randy is supposed to be doing these inspections himself? Of course we both know that is not the case. Now, given that, if he is told by the folks who did the inspection that things looked ok, he's not supposed to take their word for it? Yes the buck may stop with him, but it was still not something under his direct control.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Wasn't there an ALMS race there the day before? Did the track break up then? If not, what expectation would Randy have that it would today. Look this was a really bad outcome today, I agree. I just don't see how it falls on Randy's head.
Gary
Anthony has a point...
I own a couple restaurants.... And even if I'm on vacation and one my cooks over cooks a steak ultimately thats my responsibility
Are you telling me because he is COO Randy has no responsibility of how the series is actually run?Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
He is the boss. If the people who he hired FAILED in the track inspection then he FAILED as a Chief Operating Officer. The Business world is littered with the carcasses of former business leaders who failed to lead.
BTW It was Grand-Am not ALMS and I have heard from some people that yes, parts of the track were coming up on Saturday.
Ultimately, the buck stops at Randy - if they did not properly check out the course ahead of time that would be his fault for not insisting it be right and once the situation became bad he should have "lead" to some sort of solution (which he may have done behind the scenes). Basically this is a perfect example of the old adage "PPPPPPP" - proper prior planning prevents pi** poor performance.... and Randy is responsible for proper prior planning...
The real problem here is the series continues to deal from a potion of weakness and as such does not have the power to tell promoters, teams, etc. to "do it right or get lost"... I am fine with racing in Detroit on a less than ideal race course for the sake of Chevy etc. It is not ok for that course to then fall apart (much like the rest of the infrastructure of this country). The promoters should have known better....
But, I agree, Randy has to accept responsibility and deal with this fiasco - not pass the buck......
In that example, you are the responsible one but it is not your fault, there is a difference there, it becomes your fault if you don't take actions and it keeps happening again, again, and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
Responsibility is greater/trumps fault
Interesting reading from passionate people I must say.
The basics of this post was to deal with the owners trying to get rid of Randy. They have no power to do so and only a few have the ear of "The Family".
I think Randy was smart blasting it on twitter and keeping the series in the media's attention. Even the bad track problems at Detroit will keep the media's interest a few more days. Media coverage is good and controversy sells TV time.
I agree with RM, he needs a trusted racing veteran owner to help him. But my advise is to Randy is to watch your back when making that selection. What is Mo Nunn doing these days?
Most certainly, but Anthony's point was that it was his fault, I'm saying that thee is a difference between being the responsible one and the one at fault, you fire the one at fault, not the responsible one, you fire the responsible one only when he or she is uncapable of taking corrective actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
In this case, obviously, you can't fire the one at fault because promoters don't work for the racing leagues, getting rid of the race might not be a solution either, lets be honest, promoters and tracks are not fighting to stage Indy races, but I do want to see him taking every possible measure to avoid something like this if they use this track next year.
His job is not easy, he can't choose and pick, this is not F1 where Ecclestone has to choose between tracks he wants, tracks that are willing to pay him a lot of money, tracks that will improve the F1 brand, and tracks of governments willing to do everything and anything to stage a race, in Indy you try to do the best you can with what you have.
Without splitting too many hairs ..
Responsibility always encompasses fault
The other way around not so much
That's easy, Steve Jobs and the grandson were/are A##holes!Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
No, i'm not trying to say he has no reposibility, because ultimately he does have reponsibility in how the series is run. You hire people to do a job, you take their recommendations and you act on them. If they give you bad recommendations, you remove them. That is his responsibility in this. But to say its directly his fault that the track broke up, just doesn't make sense to me.
Take Sarahfan's example. If the cook burns the steak, it's the cooks fault. It Sarahfan's responsibility to discipline the cook for doing so.
Gary
Do anyone really expect a bankrupt city to maintain roads to race ready conditions? They are shutting city street lights for goodness sake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Roger Penske apparently did. Where are the calls for Roger's head in this fiasco? Isn't this ultimately HIS responsibility?
Gary
Point well taken. But the city's fiscal situation was known by all well before the race. So it seems that those promoting the race would have gotten involved to make certain that the proper surface was down and that it would be safe. Also, consider Detroit's fiscal issues compared to Spain's. I know one is a city and the other a country. But Spain is in at least as bad a shape economically as Detroit, if not worse. Yet the Spanish Grand Prix went off without a hitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blancvino
I didn't get to see the race or what happened with the surface exactly - I've had to rely on (ALL!) the online stories that are talking more about the red flag, and not about the race itself. But I agree with you. Considering that Penske has been a major force behind this race, he should also share some of the blame. Lots of blame to go around. And it's a real shame that this (and the attempts to fire Bernard) is what is in the news. But hopefully the series, the teams and the promoters will learn from this experience going forward. I doubt they will. But one must hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Yes he is responsible as well.
This mess in Detroit is only Randy's fault if you are willing to absolve Roger Penske, Beaux Barfield and all the experts who looked at the layout and said the patches would hold up. Sometimes it is what it is. In the final scheme of things, this little fiasco will be down the road and forgotten about if it is an isolated incident and they have learned from it.....
As for comparing this to the mess of Spain, it is an apples and oranges argument. Spain isn't in the same mess Detroit is, anyone who has been there will tell you that their problems are not so bad they have let the place go. Detroit looks like the Luftwaffe of 1940 was using the place for bombing runs.....and the mess that its financial books are in is systemic and stupidity going back decades.....
CEO Randy Bernard has been a refreshing change for IndyCar.
Not being tied to the IRL, car owners along with no ties to the most recent divisive open wheel racing history, has been a huge help to restoring American Open Wheel Racing.
That said, bring back TG or anybody tied to the AOW past, would be a disaster.
It is an apples and oranges comparison, (as I said) in that one is a city and one is a country. But the fiscal situation in Spain does have many similarities to Detroit: lack of tax revenues relative to spending, very high, systemic unemployment, very high poverty rate, an over-reliance on borrowed funds to maintain basic services, government corruption, etc. As we're now seeing Spain virtually shut out of international credit markets, the situation will deteriorate unless there is a bailout. My ex-fiance moved to Spain after we broke up. Her mother's family emigrated from Spain decades ago. And there are many areas within the country, that tourists never see, that could easily give Detroit a run for its money. The poverty rate is one of the highest in Europe. There is a sprawling slum, called Caņada Real, on the outskirts of Madrid that has over 30,000 people in it. And that's far from the only slum in Spain. But just like Detroit, which I have had to travel to frequently, there are pockets of prosperity around Spain too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
But my main point was that even in the face of a fiscal nightmare, it was possible to pull off a well organized grand prix. And neither Detroit nor Spain went downhill overnight. So it seems to me that the ICS officials and promoters should have done better due diligence, just as I'm sure the FIA and F1 officials did prior to the Spanish Grand Prix.
And going back to the Bernard situation, who do the owners have waiting in the wings that would NOT have gotten caught up in the Belle Isle mess? He's a perv and weirdo, but he was rather capable. So do the owners actually think that someone like Max Mosley would come work for them? I doubt any capable, competent person in the world of racing would even return their phone calls - even a capable weirdo like Mosley.
Jag, the Spanish Grand Prix came off because they spent the money on the GP because Bernie demands it. In the case of Detroit, there is no money, not even enough to misappropriate. No, other than the track coming up, the facility was going to work as well as it could considering, and it was the people who told Roger and Randy that ya, the track was ready. They could be called incompetant, but I wouldn't be that harsh. Not every mistake means someone should be canned. Embarassing as this is, in the end, it was a mistake. They almost made it through the whole weekend and got caught halfway through the race. Had Friday not been a total washout, the track would have been coming up in Saturday's Grand Am race....or Indycar practice. It would have been fixed over night and nothing would have been thought about. Lesson learned, it wont happen again, life moves on.
For people to be calling for Randy's head over this is retarded, but I never underestimate Indycar owners for killing their own sport. They are really good at it.....
Retarded? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Really. You want to go all PC and say I used the wrong word? Or are you objecting to me calling a bunch of millionaire car owners idiots for trying to fire the one guy trying to do what is best for the sport rather than what works for them on a team level?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
The best racing series are always run by a benign dictator who isn't always so benign if he needs an iron first. I wish Bernard had that iron fist...because a twit like John Barnes needs a slap up side the head. He had no problem with the rules with Chevy was destroying the Honda's, and when the engine rules were adjusted, Honda wins two races and all the sudden everything is all wrong? This is so much like the whining we used to see in NASCAR every February when one make's team would sandbag through Speedweeks and then pull out a killer car with a rules revision......
So if you disagree with some of Randy Bernard's decisions you are "retarded"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Those very same decisions that have given the series a new car way over budget combined with stagnant attendance and TV ratings?
BTW I am being generous by calling it stagnant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Mark can answer for himself, but as I read his question, that's not at all what he said. It's not about disagreeing with Bernard, it's about wanting him fired. And considering that there is probably no one available who would be more capable than Bernard, yes, that is retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
No one is claiming that every decision that Bernard has made is flawless. But as I keep asking, who would these geniuses replace him with???
Considering they got RB from rodeo I think there would be an extremely long list of those qualified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Possibly. But remember what I said: "there is probably no one available who would be more capable than Bernard..."Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
The various open wheel formula car series in the U.S. have been switching out Presidents and CEO's for 20 years or better. And yet, things have only gotten worse. So, it doesn't seem that the Presidents/CEO's have been the root cause of the problem. Hiring even the best turn-around artist in the world, and then tasking him with turning chicken #### into chicken salad is a fantasy mission. I think the series has made some progress since Bernard has been at the helm. But he doesn't control the family's purse strings (as Tony George did). So he is somewhat limited in what he can accomplish. But no, he hasn't always gotten it right. Has he done a better job than Tony? Other than Bozo the Clown, I doubt anyone could do any worse.
But if these all knowing owners want him gone, and the family is dumb enough to fall for it (which is entirely possible), then he'll be gone. And I figure that in 3-5 years, we'll be back here, still talking about the same issues we're talking about now... that we were talking about five years ago and five years before that. So whoever is CEO at that point... we'll probably need to see him fired too. Let's just keep doing what has never worked. I'm sure at some point it will work out.
Technically Bernard wasn't available either. He was under the employ of the Rodeo series. There are plenty of people out there who would be as qualified if not better than Randy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Then they should hire one of them. As a matter of fact, if a better, more qualified candidate was available before they hired Bernard, then why didn't they hire that person? Just because someone is available, or willing to take a new offer, that doesn't mean that they'd come work for this organization.
Here's all that I'm saying: struggling organizations that switch out the President/CEO position every couple of years, thinking that THAT will be the missing, magic bullet, very seldom succeed, in my experience.
A few weeks ago, you mentioned the issues some sponsors allegedly had over Barnes' Twitter statement. Well, instability in the executive suite is a sure sign of organizational instability. IMO, to make Bernard (or any other CEO) the scapegoat for all that ails the ICS would confirm to prospective sponsors that this racing body doesn't have a clue and isn't worth the risk.
Teams being penalized for shoddy equipment
the teams are being fined and losing points because when they do the post race tech inspections they are finding that some cars fuel bladders are holding up to or a little more then .5 of a gal more then the spec's that the rules state. AJ was fined for being .5 over and Pagenaud's teams was fined for being .05 over. Indycar KNOWS the defects are with the tanks and NOT the teams cheating. They admitted that the manufacturer has told them that the bladders are 'stretching' due to over pressure upon multi re-fueling's. There is no warranty being offered for this defect and in fact the series will not be replacing them until 2013 at best. So here we have a situation where even if the teams under fill a tank during race events and even as in Toronto the teams fined never ran more laps then a normal tank could hold in fuel - Indycar STILL fined them! Does indycar need the money that badly?
There is nothing the teams can do about this situation as there is NO replacement bladder available to a different spec then the one that came with the car. All they can do is order the same spec and replace it more often then normal and 'hope' they are within the spec's when tested.
The teams are now being required to put displacement balls in the tank and verify capacity themselves, because there is a disparity between all of the bladders.