Pirelli defend tyres after Schumacher blast

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

To lose that much places in one lap because you went longer with your tyres is absurd in any form of motorsport.

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Personally, I see it as no different to a driver grenading his engine with 'too much - for too long' with turbo boost in the 80's to keep a competitor at bay.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I'm still with Schumi on this. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. The drivers should be balls to the wall throughout the race and the fastest person with the fastest car over the course of a race should win. This is what true racing is about. Last year wasn't too bad, I felt they got it pretty spot on, but this year it's glaringly apparent that most of the drivers are nursing their cars throughout a race. While it's good for the show in all, it doesn't echo to me what F1 should be about and that is racing, not gently nursing your tyres. I don't blame Pirelli because this is what they were asked to do but overtakes because the guys tyres in front of you are shot and yours are in better shape don't give me excitement. I'd rather see a guy having to work for that overtake. It's up to F1 to find a solution that provides enjoyment for both the drivers and spectators. At the moment they have one but I'm will to suggest that if you ask any driver on the grid, they would much rather driver a 2004 spec F1 car with Bridgestones than todays ones.

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Nursing tires has been a big part of F1 for many years and it's good that those times are back. A good example is the 1990 French GP where Ivan Capelli decided not to stop for tires and go through the race with one set of tires. He nearly won it after a great battle with Alain Prost. What's wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Did he not do exactly the same though except with fuel management, turning the boost levels up and down depending on whether he needed outright power or wanted to conserve fuel for the duration of the race? How is that different to how drivers have to nurse the tyres these days?

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Problem with today's Pirelli's is its horrible heat cycle and that they suffer greatly from thermal tyre degradation. For most, any attempt at pushing (turning up the boost) you overheat the tyres and its pretty much downhill, the grip just goes and lap times go higher. However it should be noted that the tyres wear very well.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Kimi is a prime example of this. His losing so many places in a lap in China was ridiculous. It's not fair on a driver to be punished like this after doing such a fine job up until then.

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Bad strategy call. Renault called in Kimi too early and Kimi had to do a long final stint whilst stuck on a 2 stopper.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Come on Knighty baby. The Kimster and his team took a gamble. They tried to eek it out past where they needed to change tyres. The old adage for tyres is to ALWAYS be on the right tyres at the right time. We have seen some classic races where teams have been changing from dry tyres to wets, to inters etc throughout race to ensure they don't lose time by being on the wrong rubber. You get some drivers (Senna and Hamilton spring to mind) that seem to be able to make dry tyres work a la or two more than other drivers in progressivly wet conditions but ultimatly they need to be on the right boots.

Hamiltons' debut season ws a prime example of a team getting it wrong and staying out on worn rubber too long. It cost him the championship!! The Lotus team took a punt and misjudged it.

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Funny you make that point. 2006 Hungarian GP Schumi stayed out on inters and worn them down to slicks and went backwards in the process. Did he moan about Bridgestone's tyres?

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Originally Posted by wedge

Did he moan about Bridgestone's tyres?

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Did he my ar5e!

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I am sure a rocketship, as you put it, like the F2004 enables a drive to push to the limit lap after lap. The enjoyment must be intense and incredibly satisfying. Drivers like Schumacher and Alonso have all come out and said that they preferred those cars to the ones we have now. They were physically more exerting.

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Yes, but is it harder? I don't think so. It may be enjoyable for the drivers and fantasy for some fans who think that their favorite driver may benefit in such condition ;) But in my opinion the current F1 is much harder for both drivers and teams, mentally and strategically. F1 is tough again, very tough and very interesting. And I am not a "sunshine fan" - I have loyally followed this sport since 1996. So far only 2003 and 1999 come as entertaining as this one - 1999 was close because Michael didn't race in half the races and McLarens were unreliable, 2003 because of the tire war. This is actually better than either scenarios. And MUCH better than 2004, mind you.

Michael Schumacher:

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We have four of them [tyres] each time we go out and it's the same for everybody.

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:up:

Pirelli says it will not change approach - Racer.com

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Hembery said that he was not upset at Schumacher's comments, but was slightly
baffled because it was Mercedes boss Ross Brawn who pushed so hard for the tires
to be so challenging.

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Thanks God! F1 will remain unpredictable, at least for a few more races...

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Nico defends the new tyres now, says that they are great for F1!

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Nico needs to grow some balls

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Perhaps. Impossible to say. The one thing Senna hated was electronics & computers taking control away from the driver but the current tyres do not do that. They add an element which the driver (and team) has to manage.

Maybe he, as a driver, would welcome the challenge of looking after the tyres, and doing that better than anyone else. It was something he excelled at in the era of 1-lap qualifying tyres.

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Yes, I am sure Senna would have enjoyed not going out in qualifying in order to save his tyres for the race. I am sure he would have enjoyed almost half of 10 guys not doing a proper fast lap in qualifying because they need to save tyres for the race. Yes, that is true racing, not some artificial crap made to humour the less intelligent "racing" fans.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Nursing tires has been a big part of F1 for many years and it's good that those times are back. A good example is the 1990 French GP where Ivan Capelli decided not to stop for tires and go through the race with one set of tires. He nearly won it after a great battle with Alain Prost. What's wrong with that?

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Because back then you had the option of pushing or saving tyres. Also, the skill of the driver to nurse tyres was important. Nowadays NO ONE can push, NO ONE. Nor do they have an option of pushing, because then they need to pit after every 3 laps.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Thanks God! F1 will remain unpredictable, at least for a few more races...

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And fake and artificial. I cannot imagine anyone besides a complete idiot enjoying this fake stuff we see now. It is like Coronation Street or Home and Away.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Juan-Manuel Fangio was famous for winning at the slowest possible speed. That's not to say he wasn't capable of being the fastest when circumstances demanded it, the 1957 German GP being a prime example.

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Arrows, sometimes it's so nice to have someone who knows the history and pedigree of F1 as clearly as you do.

Tyre management was a lost art in F1 for decades, and now it's made a comeback. I think both viewers and drivers are having to adjust to this, and some are doing it better than others.

Personally, I think these Pirelli tyres are the best thing that could have happened to F1.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well there we are then.

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Me too. I guess I'm an idiot on Garrys' scale of things. I find this strangly reassuring :D

These Garry Walkers and Ioans should just stop watching the series, I mean nobody forces you to watch it, do they?

Garry Walker should stop insulting fans who enjoy the sport. If he doesn't like it, he may leave and shut the **** up.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Garry Walker should stop insulting fans who enjoy the sport. If he doesn't like it, he may leave and shut the **** up.

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The more reactions they get, the more they will post! Ignoring posts you dislike and not responding is the best medicine.

Except Tamburello of course, if you keep at it for long enough, he normally blows a gasket in public (or via PM of course!) :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

The more reactions they get, the more they will post! Ignoring posts you dislike and not responding is the best medicine.

Except Tamburello of course, if you keep at it for long enough, he normally blows a gasket in public (or via PM of course!) :p

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Tamb was great. You just keep pointing out where he was full of 'something' or telling porkies and suddenly you get threatened with waking up with a horses head in your bed.

As for the other two you mentioned, I generally start to worry when I find I agree with them :laugh:

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

These Garry Walkers and Ioans should just stop watching the series, I mean nobody forces you to watch it, do they?

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One of them claims to have stopped watching F1 in response to the series racing in Bahrain - I'm sure he'll be as good as his word, having made many posts about the hypocrisy of others in the past.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

One of them claims to have stopped watching F1 in response to the series racing in Bahrain - I'm sure he'll be as good as his word, having made many posts about the hypocrisy of others in the past.

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That doesn't preclude him from listening to it on "The Marconi" :confused:

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Originally Posted by Dave B

One of them claims to have stopped watching F1 in response to the series racing in Bahrain - I'm sure he'll be as good as his word, having made many posts about the hypocrisy of others in the past.

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<sniggers>

Mind you, I don't think he actually watched many GP before Bahrain judging by the accuracy of his posts ;)

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Originally Posted by aryan

Arrows, sometimes it's so nice to have someone who knows the history and pedigree of F1 as clearly as you do.

Tyre management was a lost art in F1 for decades, and now it's made a comeback. I think both viewers and drivers are having to adjust to this, and some are doing it better than others.

Personally, I think these Pirelli tyres are the best thing that could have happened to F1.

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Agree on both counts actually.

Firstly It is great to have a range of F1 fans and Arrows certainly knows his stuff.

Also despite what I have said about Pirellis tyres, you are correct. We adjust to Fuelling and No Refuelling, and its the same with the tyres. In a few years we may not have this type of F1. With Turbo's and alike.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Garry Walker should stop insulting fans who enjoy the sport. If he doesn't like it, he may leave and shut the **** up.

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I don't like the performance of the stewards nor do I would like to see wings taken off so should I STFU?

It's not acceptable to most and even I have a tolerance but being insulting shows a level passion for the sport.

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Originally Posted by wedge

I don't like the performance of the stewards nor do I would like to see wings taken off so should I STFU?

It's not acceptable to most and even I have a tolerance but being insulting shows a level passion for the sport.

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Wedge, I mean this post:
"I cannot imagine anyone besides a complete idiot enjoying this fake stuff we see now."
You never were so insulting. Neither, I hope, was I.

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Originally Posted by aryan

Tyre management was a lost art in F1 for decades, and now it's made a comeback. I think both viewers and drivers are having to adjust to this, and some are doing it better than others.

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Let me give you the example of 2006 season:

San Marino GP Schumi held off Alonso for lap after lap in the second stint and yat at the same time also conserved his tyres so he could push after Alonso pitted.

Brazillian GP Schumi gets a puncture and WDC hopes have been compromised. Conserves his tyres for the first half of his long second stint with the help of Massa not lapping him then in the second half of that stint he pushes like crazy.

In that regard this year's Pirelli's are far, far too compromising.

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Originally Posted by henners88

It's something schuey will have to get used to in that case. Times change.

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2006 Hungarian GP Schumi stayed out on inters on a dry track and went backwards. And nor did he moan about Bridgestone's crap tyres for that particular race.

Is it about getting used to a style or racing or a preference. I would argue its the latter.

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Originally Posted by wedge

2006 Hungarian GP Schumi stayed out on inters on a dry track and went backwards. And nor did he moan about Bridgestone's crap tyres for that particular race.

Is it about getting used to a style or racing or a preference. I would argue its the latter.

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I'm not sure a preference matters in this case, though. After all, everyone has to get used to it somehow.

Putting it into perspective; this is of course motor racing and is attended by people that want to be entertained. Just be happy that when your wife goes into labor and is 50% dilated before you head to the hospital that you don't have a set of the super softs on your sedan and the hospital is a 60K drive :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini

Putting it into perspective; this is of course motor racing and is attended by people that want to be entertained. Just be happy that when your wife goes into labor and is 50% dilated before you head to the hospital that you don't have a set of the super softs on your sedan and the hospital is a 60K drive :laugh:

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To be fair though. If you have a super soft, the chances of your wife being pregnant in the first place ar pretty rare ;)

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Originally Posted by wedge

Let me give you the example of 2006 season:

San Marino GP Schumi held off Alonso for lap after lap in the second stint and yat at the same time also conserved his tyres so he could push after Alonso pitted.

Brazillian GP Schumi gets a puncture and WDC hopes have been compromised. Conserves his tyres for the first half of his long second stint with the help of Massa not lapping him then in the second half of that stint he pushes like crazy.

In that regard this year's Pirelli's are far, far too compromising.

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But is it better to see a much faster driver unable to overtake, as in Imola in 2005 or 2006? I think not :)

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Originally Posted by F1boat

But is it better to see a much faster driver unable to overtake, as in Imola in 2005 or 2006? I think not :)

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It was still exciting and still engrossing and far, far more rewarding than a meaningless DRS-assisted overtake when one blasts by on the outside line.

And yes, there are instances of frustration as in Abu Dhabi 2010 but its namely aerodynamics to blame.

The first step is getting rid of DRS. Way too gimmicky.

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Originally Posted by wedge

It was still exciting and still engrossing and far, far more rewarding than a meaningless DRS-assisted overtake when one blasts by on the outside line.

And yes, there are instances of frustration as in Abu Dhabi 2010 but its namely aerodynamics to blame.

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I guess that it's a matter of taste :) I prefer this year's races :)

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Originally Posted by wedge

It was still exciting and still engrossing and far, far more rewarding than a meaningless DRS-assisted overtake when one blasts by on the outside line.

And yes, there are instances of frustration as in Abu Dhabi 2010 but its namely aerodynamics to blame.

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You speak the truth Wedge.


This is it

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Garry Walker should stop insulting fans who enjoy the sport. If he doesn't like it, he may leave and shut the **** up.

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Did I told the likes of you to leave and shut the **** up when your kind were crying about the lack of overtaking? No, I didn't. I don't like the gimmick artificial "racing" we have nowadays and I will say about it whatever I want, I want proper racing back where the fastest driver win, not like we have now.

btw: the opinion of someone like you is less important to me than used toilet paper.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

These Garry Walkers and Ioans should just stop watching the series, I mean nobody forces you to watch it, do they?

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I am watching in more from habit, not from passion anymore due to idiotic changes to rules and these awful gimmick tyres.
BTW: Did I told the likes of you to stop watching the series if you are not happy with the lack of overtaking?

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Originally Posted by wedge

Let me give you the example of 2006 season:

San Marino GP Schumi held off Alonso for lap after lap in the second stint and yat at the same time also conserved his tyres so he could push after Alonso pitted.

Brazillian GP Schumi gets a puncture and WDC hopes have been compromised. Conserves his tyres for the first half of his long second stint with the help of Massa not lapping him then in the second half of that stint he pushes like crazy.

In that regard this year's Pirelli's are far, far too compromising.

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At Brazil Schumi was pretty much flat out the whole stint. At San Marino he saved tyres and then pushed, something that wouldn't happen these days, because even after one lap of pushing on race fuel you kill the tyres.

You have the right to b1tch, moan and whine as much as you want, Walker. What you can't do is insult people who enjoy the phenomenal year we have. Your insults show only your lack of proper manners.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

You have the right to b1tch, moan and whine as much as you want, Walker. What you can't do is insult people who enjoy the phenomenal year we have. Your insults show only your lack of proper manners.

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you think I lack proper manners, yet find it acceptable to tell me to STFU. Does hypocrisy not exist in where-ever you live in?

Perhaps I have not spoken clearly enough. You can moan as much as you want about tires. You have the right to prefer dull DTM-like racing, the likes of which we saw in previous year, like the Abu Dhabi 2010 GP. What I think is unacceptable is to cyber-bully the fans of this year's racing with insults. This, I think, is ill-mannered.

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Originally Posted by henners88

You both need to mind your manners and stop the bickering as most here don't want to read it.

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OK, I apologize for spamming the thread :)

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Originally Posted by henners88

You both need to mind your manners and stop the bickering as most here don't want to read it.

The fact of the matter is Pirelli have delivered to the mandate set yet are the ones getting all the flack. All rule changes attract opposition from fans and within teams, but thats something that will not go away with a bit of shouting. At the beginning of 2009 when the aero regs were changed and we had higher, slimmer rear wings and wing front wings, we had alot of opposition amongst fans. The front wings were declared dangerous by some because they were too wide but guess what, we've all gotten used to it. The same will happen to the tyres and the teams will work out how to make them work better. Its not welcome for all, but we ain't going to change it now so lets just enjoy the racing.

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Great post Henners.

At the end of the day it's what we have for current regs and we along with the drivers have to deal with it. And for the sake of not making the forum a daycare center, we should express our opinions and accept those that oppose them without resorting to insults and childish attacks.

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Originally Posted by henners88

You both need to mind your manners and stop the bickering as most here don't want to read it.

The fact of the matter is Pirelli have delivered to the mandate set yet are the ones getting all the flack. All rule changes attract opposition from fans and within teams, but thats something that will not go away with a bit of shouting. At the beginning of 2009 when the aero regs were changed and we had higher, slimmer rear wings and wing front wings, we had alot of opposition amongst fans. The front wings were declared dangerous by some because they were too wide but guess what, we've all gotten used to it. The same will happen to the tyres and the teams will work out how to make them work better. Its not welcome for all, but we ain't going to change it now so lets just enjoy the racing.

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This

A few thoughts..

I saw a reference to Abu Dabi 2010. Which I agree was a terrible race, but of course alot of races that season were great.
Same with 2004, it wasn't vintage but these years there were good races, and DRS and Pirellis would have struggled to stop Ferrari in all likelyhood.

So its not case as some seem to make it that F1 was terrible then and great now, and visa versa great then terrible now.


Now I have made my feelings clear before about DRS, and that I would prefer it to be gone.

I like the concept of Pirelli tyres as it makes for a more varied race, than the later bridgestones, when softs could last the whole race. However I do feel they have maybe gone a tad too far.

That said unlike some, although I have a 10% doubt about the tyres, I still think F1 is great. And think despite our slight differences in opinion most here would love F1 no matter what the rules and regs.

F1 was great before Pirelli and DRS, and F1 is great now with DRS and Pirelli, its just a matter of personal preference. It doesn't mean we are head to head.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Perhaps I have not spoken clearly enough. You can moan as much as you want about tires. You have the right to prefer dull DTM-like racing, the likes of which we saw in previous year, like the Abu Dhabi 2010 GP. What I think is unacceptable is to cyber-bully the fans of this year's racing with insults. This, I think, is ill-mannered.

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:rolleyes: Cry me a river. :rotflmao:

How long before the Pireli board give Hembery the boot?!
One can't read Autosport without an almost daily attempt from Hembery to defend his crappy tires, while people keep talking about how they seemingly can't produce a competitive race tire, something that Bridgestone did with such ease.

Michelin left for the reasons we know and following that Bridgestone left after a couple of years because they knew that without competition they are not proving anything to anyone.
Pirelli arrived and the tire lottery started. No matter how much the average Joe will love the total unpredictability of the races Pirelli isn't coming out of it as a winner as they are not beating any rival and on top of it the whole commentary during the races is about when the tires of driver X will be dead, and usually it's about 10 to 15 laps which is laughable.

I can't see the board in Milano being happy with this kind of image, but hey this is just my view, so I'll now hand it over to the 'experts' who will tell the world how Alonso vs MS in Imola 2005 and 2006 was not great racing and what they watch now is the best ever racing. :D