English

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

I wouldn't feel bad about that if I were you. ;) I'm sure that if the lingua franca was still French, you would speak it, and we would be having this discussion in merry French while chewing on garlic. :p :

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Well that is the truth.. If I could try and be serious for just a moment or two I'd say to BDunnel that while there are a number of things going on in any dialog the simplest level is a subtly negotiated 2 way conversation... What particular 'authorial voice" we use in any given context depends a lot on the situtation, and the other person in the dialog ---or persons, and how much each speaker "invests" in how they speak...
Native speakers in their own setting are often rather sloppy and casual about their grammar, pronunciation, idiom....Like at London, or Paris or Stockholm, all get enormous flack/ridicule from the rest of their countrymen..
.But people speak the way they do for a lot of reasons---including empty (headed) phrases which may seem like bilge, but are social markers which are mainly saying "Yo! I'm a _______________, you too?" In Fortress America™ rally is a tiny little subset of car motorsport so a guy who blurts out----even inappropriately---the phrase "Left Foot braking............" knows he's found a kindred soul if somebody responds "Yeah! LFB is a must!" Other sub-branches have their words and phrases used to denote affiliation. (I don't pay any attention to other car racing, especially asphalt but maybe just shouting "late apex" or "threshold braking" are similar "mating calls"

But for many, a good, fluent, obvious command of English we see here can mean something valuable for many, and there is a drive to master it in a way a native speaker in their home setting doesn't need to...
When I moved to Sweden to pursue my motorsport dreams, I was strongly motivated to quickly learn Swedish as well as I could to better my employment prospects and to be a valuable employee once I was on a job....and after a while, being on the receiving end of a good deal of xenophobia from the dominant culture, there was a motivation to learn it so I did not have to sit without words when some Swede who be ranting about how horrible all the foreigners were..
Fortunately Swedish was easy being that it descending from an old Northern German dialect and was "one step away that way ^" while English was from the same ancient German dialect but was one and a half step that < way"..so pretty easy for a fluent English speaker>

The same internal motivation held when eventually realizing the motorsport dream and working mainly in France.. It made good business and personal sense to learn the language well---personal because i was a single guy and, well, I liked the French girls (and happily enough, a lot of them like me!)
I used to say "I speak French very effluently" ...

And the same when I found my self passing thru Western West Germany a lot, again direct concrete benefit to speaking the local language "pretty damn good"....
(sigh) and yep a lot of those German girls liked that I spoke well.

Here, and now, so much communication if not dialog, it is either "broadcasts" of utter banalities (like tweets and IM and most email) or something akin to the clashes of wooden sailing ships in Nelson's times: Broadsides soley intending to poke holes and dismast...Neither of those forms can be taken seriously..

You see this in they way virtually nobody ever will say anything like "Oh, I didn't realise that" or "No I hadn't heard of that before".
(so some adopt a fairly combined lackadaisical and high-arch parody tone, and accept that many simply won't 'get it", and that makes no difference)

So really considering the clear potential personal and vocational advantages, it's not too surprising that many have tried and do write English very well...

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Originally Posted by Eki

There's a county in Estonia called Revala, which I find funny, since in Finnish slang "reva" means the private lower body regions of the female anatomy.

I guess it comes from the Swedish word "reva":

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Given the subject matter and the male-dominated nature of society at the time words were being devised, might it also be derived from the French 'rêve'?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Given the subject matter and the male-dominated nature of society at the time words were being devised, might it also be derived from the French 'rêve'?

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According to local historians, the ancient county name Revala (or Rävala) actually probably came from the Estonian word for fox, "rebane". So the area around Tallinn was Foxland. And Tallinn itself was called Reval in medieval times. So, Foxtown. :)

In my case it was school and uni back home, then a Master program at an international uni, then more then ten years of working for various American companies. Also, being from a small country helps. If you have to get out of your backyard every now and then you have to be able to explain yourself.

My foreign language ability starts and ends with English but I am know a couple words in a dozen of other languages. Once I was having a lunch with a Sri Lankan guy in a Chinese buffet in Hungary. :) My Lankan friend wanted some bottled water, but a non-English speaking Chinese expat waitress thought he wanted a glass of water. I explained the bottled water thing to her in a very broken Hungarian and my friend then asked me where I learned to speak Chinese. Things do get funny in a globalized world. :)

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

In my case it was school and uni back home, then a Master program at an international uni, then more then ten years of working for various American companies. Also, being from a small country helps. If you have to get out of your backyard every now and then you have to be able to explain yourself.

My foreign language ability starts and ends with English but I am know a couple words in a dozen of other languages. Once I was having a lunch with a Sri Lankan guy in a Chinese buffet in Hungary. :) My Lankan friend wanted some bottled water, but a non-English speaking Chinese expat waitress thought he wanted a glass of water. I explained the bottled water thing to her in a very broken Hungarian and my friend then asked me where I learned to speak Chinese. Things do get funny in a globalized world. :)

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I ought, of course, to have cited you in my first post as another non-native speaker with an outstanding command of English. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

While I may sometimes act as the unwanted grammar police on here, one thing that never ceases to impress me is the standard of English displayed by some non-native speakers of the language. I mean, the likes of studi... sorry, wiruwiru, jens and Eki demonstrate virtually perfect idiomatic English, and ioan, gadjo_dilo and many others aren't far behind — often, ahead of those who actually speak and write in English as their mother tongue. So, how did those of you with these skills come to pick them up? While I studied German at university and lived in Germany until last week, my command of that language is dreadful in comparison.

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My best holidays have been from staying in backpacker hostels. Not just the command of the English language but their sense of humour never ceases to amaze me.

Dear BDunnell.
I'm sure in my case it's a confusion as I'm aware of my terrible grammar mistakes and limited english vocabulary. Ironically I know my mistakes but can't correct myself.
I studied some English in school but practice is the key of learning a foreign language. Unfortunately in our schools we learn the "literary" language which is different to the spoken one. English was a hobby and our way to oppose the regime of that time. At the same time english teachers were always young, funny and open minded.
I admit that I owe part of my "skills" to this forum because in real life I have no chance to speak to foreigners. I "landed" here accidentally, liked it and after 2 years of reading the threads I dared to become the gadjo dilo of this community. I attended an english course 2 years ago at work but it was very boring, the teacher thought we're interested in economic terms ( well, my colleagues were ) and came with different boring texts about business, taxes, etc.- just managed to improve the wooden language I've already known.
I also admit I was a big fan of..... ( I won't say whose ) so for a time I became a reader of the Sun, Daily Mirror and other infamous tabloids.

Eki said something about english tv programmes and movies being not dubbed....Whenever I watch them I think " this time I'll watch it just for the language" but my attention can't be distributed and I'm thrilled by the action. Strange, but this doesn't happen when watching shows in other languages. These days I watch some indian and south korean soaps ( and I don't mind if you think I'm stupid ) and I started to learn a few words.

I'm too shy to speak english in public. Sometimes it happen to be asked in the street about a street or instution and then my tongue become tied. Thanks God that the gesture language is international....

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I ought, of course, to have cited you in my first post as another non-native speaker with an outstanding command of English. My apologies.

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No problem. Thank you, sir.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I admit that I owe part of my "skills" to this forum because in real life I have no chance to speak to foreigners. I "landed" here accidentally, liked it and after 2 years of reading the threads I dared to become the gadjo dilo of this community.

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gadjo_dilo, you're quite an asset to this forum and your contributions are highly valued (and here I'm poking fun at myself and the bureaucratic English that I often have to use. ;) ).

Rudy, you're too nice...
Thank you.

P.S. Another fatality! I'm considered an "asset" to this forum. Whenever I call up someone from my institution I recommend myself " I'm......, from Assets" :laugh:

My biggest problem when it comes to the english language, is people being unable to know that there's a difference between your and you're, and they're their and there. Also use of the term 'would of'. Essentially all of these people I know from university are quite talented at what they do, but using grammar correctly when its their first language is not one of them.

My question to people with english as a second language is if they get lazy with grammar when writing their native language.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I found it very amusing watching American sitcoms dubbed in Polish in a hotel room in Poland. Or watching Dallas dubbed in Spanish in a motel room in California.

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Nothing compares with Alain Delon speaking russian in a coprodaction called Assassination Attempt (Teheran '43).

His first reply was "Harasho" and all the cinema started laughing.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

My biggest problem when it comes to the english language, is people being unable to know that there's a difference between your and you're, and they're their and there. Also use of the term 'would of'. Essentially all of these people I know from university are quite talented at what they do, but using grammar correctly when its their first language is not one of them.

My question to people with english as a second language is if they get lazy with grammar when writing their native language.

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The hardest part for me reading English forums is native speakers mixing words with totally different meanings. They're, their and there are not so hard to decipher in a sentence, but I also saw know - no - now mixed, which - witch, sandwich - sandwitch, way - weigh, ate - eight and many others. I don't understand how English speakers don't see that these words have totally different meanings?

That's because many English speakers (as I imagine is the case in other languages) are spectacularly uneducated and firstly don't know what spellings to use when and secondly don't care or think it's cool.

One facet I've heard complaints about are the large number of words that have dual meanings.

A quick example:
I will read
I have read

It's the same verb "to read", but it's pronounced differently according to the context.

And yes, other languages have the same issue, there are several in French that I know of.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

...My question to people with english as a second language is if they get lazy with grammar when writing their native language.

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...ahem ;) :s tareup:

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

My question to people with english as a second language is if they get lazy with grammar when writing their native language.

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The short answer is: no. The long answer is: hell no.

I sometimes speak with quite a bit of improvisation, but when it comes to writing, I stick to the rules.

Innit, eh? ;)

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Originally Posted by schmenke

...ahem ;) :s tareup:

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I made a statement about what my question was - the question was implicit within that. So it was a statement. Is that what you quoted me with regards to?

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I made a statement about what my question was - the question was implicit within that. So it was a statement. Is that what you quoted me with regards to?

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I was just yanking your chain ;) . No worries :)
But, yes, your post was grammatically awkward. I normally wouldn't bother, but this is a thread about English grammar :p : .

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Originally Posted by schmenke

I was just yanking your chain ;) . No worries :)
But, yes, your post was grammatically awkward. I normally wouldn't bother, but this is a thread about English grammar :p : .

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As long as I didn't shoot myself in the foot by being grammatically incorrect it'll do me :p :

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

While I may sometimes act as the unwanted grammar police on here, one thing that never ceases to impress me is the standard of English displayed by some non-native speakers of the language. I mean, the likes of studi... sorry, wiruwiru, jens and Eki demonstrate virtually perfect idiomatic English, and ioan, gadjo_dilo and many others aren't far behind — often, ahead of those who actually speak and write in English as their mother tongue. So, how did those of you with these skills come to pick them up? While I studied German at university and lived in Germany until last week, my command of that language is dreadful in comparison.

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I think it differers from country to country but if you look at the countries Sweden, Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands have
the highest % of English speaking population outside Britain and its former colonies. I think one of the reasons is that the native languages in these countries are
quite similar to English (since they are closely related as they are Germanic languages) are closely related to English (they're all Germanic languages) other reasons are that
in Sweden English are taught at school already from early grades.

In my case we started with English in 4th grade (at the age of 11) and for the rest of the reaming years which makes its 9 years
in total if you include Gymnasiet (high school). But i think they start even earlier nowdays. Subtitles tv-programs (which already have been mentioned)
is of course another major contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I dared to become the gadjo dilo of this community.

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ioan is the really dilo one though :p

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I'm considered an "asset" to this forum.

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sure beats being the forum ass :dozey:

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

While I may sometimes act as the unwanted grammar police on here, one thing that never ceases to impress me is the standard of English displayed by some non-native speakers of the language. I mean, the likes of studi... sorry, wiruwiru, jens and Eki demonstrate virtually perfect idiomatic English, and ioan, gadjo_dilo and many others aren't far behind — often, ahead of those who actually speak and write in English as their mother tongue. So, how did those of you with these skills come to pick them up? While I studied German at university and lived in Germany until last week, my command of that language is dreadful in comparison.

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Thanks. :)
To be honest, it just happened.
Most of my friends claim that my brain still works like a kids brain when it comes to learning new languages. This is their explanation for me being fluent in 5 languages. Funnily enough I chose to become engineer. :D

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Originally Posted by tfp

I must also compliment everyone on here who isn't from an english speaking country, many people, Juha Koo AFF NOT OldF and many, many others speak perfect english on here, I sometimes feel guilty because I cant really speak another language!

Or a bit of German parhaps...Er...Der blau und weiss VW auto is sehr schnell mit Sebastien Ogier....

Oh dear!! :p

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Well, I usually try not to speak while posting in here! ;)

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

The short answer is: no. The long answer is: hell no.

I sometimes speak with quite a bit of improvisation, but when it comes to writing, I stick to the rules.

Innit, eh? ;)

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Some know the english language so well they even know slang!

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Originally Posted by ioan

Well, I usually try not to speak while posting in here! ;)

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:D :cool:
If anyone wants to learn more, here geordie dictionary

Baad is a good one. "I was baad with the drink this morning" :D

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Originally Posted by tfp

If anyone wants to learn more, here geordie dictionaryBaad is a good one. "I was baad with the drink this morning" :D

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That's pretty cool. Sounds a bit like Lullans.

I've always dreamt of learning a special type of English and then scaring people around me with some provincial British, or Scottish, or Irish, or Southern U.S. accent and idioms on top of my thick foreign accent. It hasn't happened so far, though. The only English speaking area where I stayed for a long time was Illinois and they don't have much of a special accent there.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

I've always dreamt of learning a special type of English...

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Cockney rhyming slang is what we all should learn. :D ;)

[youtube]qr2XOhgSVoY[/youtube]

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Originally Posted by ioan

Thanks. :)
To be honest, it just happened.
Most of my friends claim that my brain still works like a kids brain when it comes to learning new languages. This is their explanation for me being fluent in 5 languages. Funnily enough I chose to become engineer. :D

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Do you speak german? If you do, you'll grow into my eyes.

My father was fluent in 7 languages. Funnily enough he chose to become a driver.

That's the things about learning languages really, you speak to some one and they are fluent in 8 languages, are they working for the UN? No, they are a minimum wage waiter in a restaurant...

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

My biggest problem when it comes to the english language, is people being unable to know that there's a difference between your and you're, and they're their and there. Also use of the term 'would of'. Essentially all of these people I know from university are quite talented at what they do, but using grammar correctly when its their first language is not one of them.

My question to people with english as a second language is if they get lazy with grammar when writing their native language.

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Making spelling/grammar mistakes in my native language ( romanian ) would be the biggest shame for me. My job requires a good knowledge of the language as most of my papers are addressed to a minister and are signed by another minister. ( I admit that once I typed „sexretar de stat” instead of „secretar de stat” and nobody saw the mistake, the secretary of state even signed it :laugh: ). I reckon our grammar is very difficult but if you were a bit attentive in school you can manage. It happens sometimes to don’t be sure about a grammar/spelling rule, then I ask a colleague or look up in a dictionary.

My ex boss was a calamity from this point of view. He always spelled „a-ti” instead of „ati” ( and viceversa ) , „va” instead of „v-a” ( and viceversa ) etc. He was aware of his lack of romanian knowledge and never typed a document. He used to write it on paper and then he would give us to type with the same excuse: I was in a hurry, didn’t have time to check, you do the concordance. We had a good laugh with his papers. The best thing about him is that our service was called „regii autonome” ( a name for state companies that aren’t meant to be privatised ). Although we dealt with this term every day he wasn’t able to spell it properly and was always writing „regi autonome” ( „regi” means „kings” ). More than that he wrote „regi” on all our files and books.

I love my native language, it doesn’t sound too musical but has a very „rich” vocabulary with many influences from the neighbourhood and loads of regional words. What is great about it is its unity, the fact we all understand each other no matter the part of the country where we’re living in.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Do you speak german? If you do, you'll grow into my eyes.

My father was fluent in 7 languages. Funnily enough he chose to become a driver.

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Yep, German is one of them. After living close to 10 years in France I moved to Austria since a few years. :)

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Originally Posted by Mark

That's the things about learning languages really, you speak to some one and they are fluent in 8 languages, are they working for the UN? No, they are a minimum wage waiter in a restaurant...

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You know what's funny? When you meet the guys working for the UN and they are barely fluent in their own language.
I've known a guy who was translating at UN meetings, he only spoke fluently Swedish and English, we was trying to learn some Eastern European languages with little success.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Making spelling/grammar mistakes in my native language ( romanian ) would be the biggest shame for me. My job requires a good knowledge of the language as most of my papers are addressed to a minister and are signed by another minister. ( I admit that once I typed „sexretar de stat” instead of „secretar de stat” and nobody saw the mistake, the secretary of state even signed it :laugh: ).

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Don't worry, given the literacy level of the Romanian politicians (including ministers and other well paid bureaucrats) they wouldn't know when you make grammar mistakes. Sadly enough.

I know the languages have common roots, but if how quickly Romanians learn Spanish is anything to go by, you're definitely a land of linguistic geniuses :up:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Making spelling/grammar mistakes in ~

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I suppose it's the same in any language - some people can spell correctly and some can't, some people have an intuitive feel for grammar and some don't, some can do mental arithmetic and some can't.

At school I studied Latin and French. The main benefit is that the stricter grammar that has given me a clearer understanding of the few grammar rules we have left in English. I can't speak either language but as the root words are similar I can sometimes get the gist of other [written] Latin languages.

But, Like BDunnell I have to say that I really admire the way that all you foreigners can communicate so well in English.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

I know the languages have common roots, but if how quickly Romanians learn Spanish is anything to go by, you're definitely a land of linguistic geniuses :up:

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Learning Italian was even easier and faster. ;)
And yes it's all about the common roots, it makes everything so much easier.

PS: The way some Romanians, quite many of them, speak and write in Romanian doesn't give us any rights to the linguistic geniuses title! :)

so you speak Italian effluently too ? ;) :p :andrea:

Yes I suppose that if you are fluent in say Italian you can learn French and Spanish quite easily. But all Italians are bad at English ;)

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Originally Posted by Mark

...But all Italians are bad at English ;)

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Sad but true, my French, Spanish and especially Danish are a lot better than my Sicilian-English :p