Loeb against endurance rallies

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MJW

bit of an update - from the printed version of Autosport -Bullet points from the article:-
1.The championship organisers are adamant that a greater element of endurance will be brought in to the championship.
2. Rally cars could go all day without service.
3. These will be implemented in 2014.
4. Todt says that this year the rule will change to split rallies into two defined patterns, Classic rallies will have a total stage distance of between 300 and 400kms whilst endurance rallies will be between 400 and 500kms with 6 classics and 6 endurance rallies making the championship.

In another section it refers to an imminent conflict in Portugal with the drivers against night stages with potential for dust. Michelle said she understands their concerns but its important that rallying becomes more challenging. "Drivers will have to use their brains more for something that is challenging"

I predict a conflict between Jean Todt / Michelle Mouton on the FIA side versus the paddock club service park set. This is going to run for a bit but from what I have been told the FIA President is a determined (opinionated) individual who gets his way. I think FIA will win, but at what cost?

---

In other words...

.....Damn nothing happens in rallying we need NEWS !!!
..... I know lets MAKE THINGS UP !!!!
..... YAAAAAAY !!!!

Classic autosport articles....

The FIA are actually right for once (well in my opinion). Rallies do need to become more of a challenge, and need to have a better variation of stages instead of just repeating the same stages of the morning loop. I just do not see how the teams and drivers cannot support the FIA's outlook on this. Its crazy, frustrating for the fan and just seems a little selfish instead of doing what obviously the fans want and need (as shown with support on this forum). Michelle Mouton is right, we need a true challenge, a true adventure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

No WRC event lasts two weeks and no drivers do it on motorcycles. So the safety level just from that is way higher. The point was that two days of driving with little rest can't be a big problem for safety. It is only a problem of comfort. In my opinion it is nothing in terms of safety compared to the nature of the roads in Finland (or in my country) for example.

---

I was actually referring to the spectator safety. The guys in the car are protected but the thousands of fans at the road side have got only trees, if even that. And if we'd push all the spectators hundreds of meters away from the road, then I personally can't see how the fans could enjoy watching something in the distance.
I might exaggerate because I don't have a huge knowledge of racing, even less of endurance racing. But I prefer to return home after a rally, so safety is important for me.

Also from a spectator point of view, I wouldn't like that long days (20 hour days). If I'd follow a rally at home behind a computer screen, then I wouldn't have anything against that long days but when on the road then I think I wouldn't enjoy the rally as much because I'd be just exhausted by the mid-point of the second day. And if we take away the joy of attending a rally, then it isn't a spectator sport any more.
I also don't like when the day ends in the afternoon. If the last stage would start in the evening, then it would be great.

More longer rallies! I don't understand Loeb, his career is not so long?! History knows lots of drivers WHO owns more active years or kilometers/miles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Franky

I was actually referring to the spectator safety. The guys in the car are protected but the thousands of fans at the road side have got only trees, if even that. And if we'd push all the spectators hundreds of meters away from the road, then I personally can't see how the fans could enjoy watching something in the distance.
I might exaggerate because I don't have a huge knowledge of racing, even less of endurance racing. But I prefer to return home after a rally, so safety is important for me.

Also from a spectator point of view, I wouldn't like that long days (20 hour days). If I'd follow a rally at home behind a computer screen, then I wouldn't have anything against that long days but when on the road then I think I wouldn't enjoy the rally as much because I'd be just exhausted by the mid-point of the second day. And if we take away the joy of attending a rally, then it isn't a spectator sport any more.
I also don't like when the day ends in the afternoon. If the last stage would start in the evening, then it would be great.

---

Spectating, back when WRC was really popular to watch, used to be a big adventure for spectators also...
It was a big adventure for my service crew the one WRC event I do. Fond memories even 20 years later of a sense of accomplishment... 3 out of 3 went on to build and run cars for years (all Opels, too and all full of nice parts I imported from Din Rallyboutique i Varmland and Trend AB in Stockholm (Tackar grabbar!).

Now most events are forgotten pretty quickly.

For me, personally, rallying (and motorsports in general) is about the fastest man winning. And yes, I DO like some kind of endurance events, but not if we end up having a championship with only endurance events. One whole day without service for the cars? Crazy. Imagine someone getting a mechanical problem on the very first stage.... A split between the two kinds of events would be fine (50% like it is now, 50% endurance type).

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance means hard and long hours for men and machine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Francis44

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance menas hard and long hours for men and machine which then demands thinking, planning, maybe some mechanical sympathy and is therefore much more complex and nuanced, and that translates into more interesting...

---

Fixed that for you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Francis44

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance means hard and long hours for men and machine.

---

I agree I like the endurance aspect but am in favour of full on two format rather than 5 days. I do like the Loeb suggested format, and I dont like the 3 stages long lunch and 3 stages repeated. I really wish I could find the itinery Kris Meeke suggested for last years rally GB. It was a bit like a flat out San Remo. I donr think 5 or 7 nights in a hotel is good, thats why my version of endurance is compressed into 4 days inc 2 for competion and two for recce / shakedown.

I have an idea for this let the 'whinger' retire

He has never driven a proper event in his career and yet people bleet on about him being the best ever....what utter crap!!!

Let him pee off to his roundy roundy racing with the other pre madonnas

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

I’ve predicted a ‘war’ since Jean Todt was elected and made it clear he wanted the WRC back on track. What is best for the WRC isn’t always the best for the Manufacturers. They’ve ruled the roost for the past 10+ years, and look were that has taken us. Their moaning over last years RallyGB route shows how out of touch & clueless they are about were the sport is.

---

The question is, what is different about the reasons for the attitude of today's WRC manufacturers compared with those of, say, the mid-1980s? Have they simply come to the view that they, rather than the sport's own authorities, know best?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Now most events are forgotten pretty quickly.

---

How sadly true that is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

The question is, what is different about the reasons for the attitude of today's WRC manufacturers compared with those of, say, the mid-1980s? Have they simply come to the view that they, rather than the sport's own authorities, know best?

---

It's a good question. Personally, I'd say it was that they think they know best. The last 10 years disprove their theory. The sport will only be going places if everybody pulls in the same direction. The FiA/ Jean Todt want one thing, the Manufacturers another....and as MJW has said, Todt seems determined to get his way, whatever the cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

It's a good question. Personally, I'd say it was that they think they know best. The last 10 years disprove their theory. The sport will only be going places if everybody pulls in the same direction. The FiA/ Jean Todt want one thing, the Manufacturers another....and as MJW has said, Todt seems determined to get his way, whatever the cost.

---

I don't understand what the manufacturers do want, to be honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't understand what the manufacturers do want, to be honest.

---

I can hazard a guess. To keep the status quo, so they can wine and dine their guests/VIPs in the Paddock, I mean Service Park. And there will be hell to pay if any of these guests get mud on their shoes, as was one complaint about Builth Wells in November.
Look, the Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. However, using UK as an extreme example, RallyGB gets very little mainstream coverage....how is that helping them? Whereas the old RAC received huge newspaper, radio & TV coverage - just what Manufacturers want.
Am I missing something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Look, the Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. However, using UK as an extreme example, RallyGB gets very little mainstream coverage....how is that helping them? Whereas the old RAC received huge newspaper, radio & TV coverage - just what Manufacturers want.
Am I missing something?

---

My point exactly. And why was that? In large part, surely, because it was much more of a national event, geographically and figuratively.

I also like to see fastest man winning. But I wouldn't mind a couple of longer rallyes in the calendar, fitting the characteristic, like Safari was. In such rallyes it would be interesting to see who can hurry slowly and drive smart to the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ste898

I have an idea for this let the 'whinger' retire

He has never driven a proper event in his career and yet people bleet on about him being the best ever....what utter crap!!!

Let him pee off to his roundy roundy racing with the other pre madonnas

---

All that could have been written in a civilized way. Sadly it didn't happen. Is it so difficult to express Your opinion like a an adult person?

Maybe I'm too old to read that but... I'm not even thirty. Something is wrong, huh...

[Brother John (who is from same Vlaandern as me ancestors and living as a furriner in the same country I lived in)(and my bloody name is John and I am brother to every man) VOICE ON]

Harumph, smells like pub talk in here..Rum, entirely too rum, Pub talk the lot a ya!

[/Brother John (who is from same Vlaandern as me ancestors and living as a furriner in the same country I lived in)(and my bloody name is John and I am brother to every man) VOICE OFF]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

My point exactly. And why was that? In large part, surely, because it was much more of a national event, geographically and figuratively.

---

Now you guys are onto something right there. You know that even in the "generation of Block-heads" here in Fortress Amerika that really what rally is only VERY DIMLY grasped by the masses. And that's with Blogs and Youtube and relentless TV hype.....

But! Even 45 years ago EVEN HERE people had heard of and some of us knew of Monte carlo and RAC..
Por que you say?
because they were big capital A Adventures...
RAC all round the whole isle. Monte starting from pointes around the whole Continent, even the East Block!

What an adventure just to think about doing..
in deed, the sparseness of the reports made us imagine a lot more..

But even over here in a culturally insular, virtual monolinguistic isolated land, some us us had heard of rally because of the hugeness of the adventure.

And some of us thought...Hmmmmmmm, it might be fun to do that ....one day....

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MJW

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.

---

In which case, how can the WRC ever hope to recover? The nature of the current events is, many seem to agree, part of the problem. Rallying traditionally is not just about short flat-out sprints. They have their place — they have always had their place — but they are not the be-all and end-all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MJW

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.

---

So you're suggesting that the events should be built around the specification of the cars rather than the cars designed to handle the event? That's novel. With such an unintelligent approach one could be forgiven for thinking you were Australian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sollitt

So you're suggesting that the events should be built around the specification of the cars rather than the cars designed to handle the event? That's novel. With such an unintelligent approach one could be forgiven for thinking you were Australian.

---

To be fair to MJW, I do remember one of the WRC team members arguing that the current WRCars weren’t designed for Endurance events. And that was one of their arguments against the Endurance return...
I don’t think anybody is really advocating every event is Endurance. It’s variety that is needed. So, 2,3 Endurance, 2-3 Sprint, and the rest what we have now. It would be nice to think some events would drop the Cloverleaf format – as that has brought us boring/ staid events, e;g Deutschland - which for 10 years has been virtually the same.

I can't understand why Todt desperately trying to bring some works team.
In these days, manufacturers simply don't want to invest their money
And even if they're take part in this field and win the championship
I don't think we're going to buy some M.W.C winner's road car
In the past, there's lots of meaning about winning the championship to them, it changed
It's time to cost down of this sport and bring the privateers in

I wrote something about that in a norwegian forum, but no'one was interested in that discusion. Take a look at TTA - Elitserien i Racing , its a new top racing class in sweden. Everything is ready, just fit a body on demand. Is i concept like this suitable for wrc? I Think atleast citroen will leave, but if 5-8 private teams will join instead, i can live with that. For the man in the street, it will not make any difference. But its a quite cheap way to run a topclass i wrc, and lots of teams and drivers can be competative for a decent amount of money.

is it nice to be in star trek universe ???

i will visit some day...

Talking to me?
Looking after a fart, and the **** arise......

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skarderud

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

---

not man enough to say some things in a language i can understand ?? even through a Pc screen ??? LOL.....

anyway...

If you think the solution for the top of the sport is to scare the manufacturers away and promote more nobres then there is not much to do to help you....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skarderud

Talking to me?
Looking after a fart, and the **** arise......

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

---

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

Is calling NOT bald an insult? BTW, did any Danes "win" the lottery? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pino

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

---

It was hardly a insult, more of an fact. So you are half danish? Cool!
When our man stop ruin every discusion with his **** and nonsence, i will start answear his post in a proper way. I could ban his posts from my profile, but its the easy way, and not my way of discusion. i trying to start a proper discusion about how to make wrc more atractive, i don't wan't any insults about nerd's stuff's in it. Maybe my post has no future in real life, but a proper discusion about a set of rules more atractive for smaller teams, importbased and private teams that can build and run a topspec and competitive rallycar in wrc in the future. Cause todays situation is hardly good for the sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pino

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

---

Don't try french or spanish either, those come third and fourth languages! But if you absolutely must make an insult, try finnish. Proven fact that Pino doesn't understand paskaakaan suomea :) Except words like hölkynkölkyn and Karjala takaisin :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skarderud

I wrote something about that in a norwegian forum, but no'one was interested in that discusion. Take a look at TTA - Elitserien i Racing , its a new top racing class in sweden. Everything is ready, just fit a body on demand. Is i concept like this suitable for wrc? I Think atleast citroen will leave, but if 5-8 private teams will join instead, i can live with that. For the man in the street, it will not make any difference. But its a quite cheap way to run a topclass i wrc, and lots of teams and drivers can be competative for a decent amount of money.

---

Ridiculous idea because it wont attract any manufacturer to get involved.

Also its quite chep to attack forum members on personal level, and to attack them with a language they dont understand, is not only cheap but cowardish aswell.

you do understand however how a private team works ???

Means that someone has to pay to drive, you call that a future in the sport ???

believe it or not motorsport in particular (and sports in general) exists because car maufacturers make money out of it not because they love the sport or they want to have people driving fast on closed roads and not on the streets...

Its funny how people consider the golden years of rallying (80s-90s) when we had 4-5 manufacturers in it.... yet they imagine a future without them to help the sport...

As for the insults part use a language i can understad...i do not mind what you say...insults on a monitor cannot get into me..

The difference from today wouldn't be to big, who is not paying to drive these days? Loeb, mikko and latvala?
The rest pays to drive. If the result of a concept of this is citroen leave, and 5-8 other brands arive i cant see why that cant work? More equal competition, better fighting and more potensial winners. It is that we all wan't, isnt it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skarderud

The difference from today wouldn't be to big, who is not paying to drive these days? Loeb, mikko and latvala?
The rest pays to drive. If the result of a concept of this is citroen leave, and 5-8 other brands arive i cant see why that cant work? More equal competition, better fighting and more potensial winners. It is that we all wan't, isnt it?

---

why we would have more potential winners ???

and why if Citroen leaves 5-8 are going to come ???

who guarentees such stuff ??

already we have 3 manufacturers next year and if BWM weren;t a bunch of nobodies we would have 4... When mini entered as a manufactuer it brought Sordo and Meeke in the team...when they left they we got the fat brazilian clown with sunglasses and the other one whatshisname...

The manufacturers are always going to go for quality because if they do not they are risking their reputation...in the private teams whoever pays drives....

And as i said....the best years of rallying were those when the manufacturer involvement was big...how do you think a revamp of the series should not include them ???

And where would these discussions are at home? :?:
Oh yes I can´t have my opinions here on the forum. :confused:
There are comments from some members immediately. :p :

The discussion is excellent. Pastor John, moderating forum is not like sorting boxes in a warehouse.

Noone can garanty anything, but its more likely than now. If Toyota and Subaru also joins, there are no need for a new formula, but if we in 4 yrs have 2 manu's, then its time for some new thinking. In 60's, 70's and early 80's it was most imported- based teams around, with different level og support from the brands,why cant such a strukture be posible in 2018, if the alternative is like last yrs.