Is There a God?

I propose we have Mulder and Scully investigate.

If there is a God, what faith or denomination do you think is his. Is he a Christian, Jew, Pagan, Hindi, Islamist, Shintoist etc. He can't be all of them and according to their teachings, some are mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

If there is a God, what faith or denomination do you think is his. Is he a Christian, Jew, Pagan, Hindi, Islamist, Shintoist etc. He can't be all of them and according to their teachings, some are mutually exclusive.

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God has no denomination. People do. From their point of view their denomination is right, others are wrong. The difference is the level of tolerance.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

God has no denomination. People do. From their point of view their denomination is right, others are wrong. The difference is the level of tolerance.

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That's if you believe there is only one God.

For example, a fundemental difference between Muslim and Christian faiths is that of Jesus being the Son of God or just another Prophet. If Jesus is the Son then surely, although Christianity is a new fangled religion, it is the only true one. However, if this isn't the case, then the Christian faith is rather a sham isn't it?

Then we can look at other religions that believe in multiple Gods and not one divine being. Look at one of the more established religions based in Anciant Egypt where there are multiple Gods but include the creator, Ra (Re) or the Sun God. Are they wrong?

We could go all the way back to symbolism but there's little point.

So, if there is a creator, it's unlikely he, she or it is religious but more likely to be an energy or creative source IMHO and therefore religion is nothing more than a belief of a communal code of behaviour.

If there is a God then who created God?

Steve Jobs



:erm:

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

God has no denomination. People do. From their point of view their denomination is right, others are wrong. The difference is the level of tolerance.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

Dawkins.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Steve Jobs



:erm:

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Wrong. Steve Wozniak. Jobs was just his shill, kinda like the biblical Gabriel.

Religion and Apple. All we need is guns on the thread for the perfect forum storm :D

Both Religion and Apple are tools to control the masses ;)

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Originally Posted by odykas

Both Religion and Apple are tools to control the masses ;)

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At least Apple's useful :D

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

Dawkins.

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Nice and gives you a pause, too.
Douglass Addams, the genius who brought us the epic adventure, the 'increasingly inappropriately named "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" wrote a wonderful book on this very subject called "The Long Dark Tea-time of the Soul" addressing
The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the question "what does happen to those Gods we have created when we no longer need them?

and is a play on the theological treatise Dark Night of the Soul, by Saint John of the Cross.

I got my copy in Heathrow Terminal 4 (or sumpin) years ago, which in the novel was destroyed when Woden encounters an unusually recalcitrant ticket agent and he blows his top..

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Faith is faith. It does not need scientific evidence. Even so, it has plenty.

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Plenty of what?

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Mark is right. This is an old debate that we do not have to repeat. Those interested can revisit that thread.

Here I am more interested in the mental approaches to the issue. Sometimes it sounds like believers just believe while atheists tend to rationalize. I am not sure this is entirely true. There's plenty of theologists who rationalize God.

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What if the theologists would rationalize reality instead of God?
Maybe they will not be theologists anymore, however they would finally know something more.

Nah, he would have created the iGod aka Steve Jobs clone.

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Originally Posted by wedge

If there is a God then who created God?

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Pratchett created small gods...

Has nobody else seen the end of Lost? Do you really expect me to believe that that was made up? :dozey:

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Originally Posted by ioan

...iGod ...

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:up: :D

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Originally Posted by Breeze

May I remind you that if reason is your means, logic is the method, and in logic you cannot prove a negative. It is incumbent on the arguer making the positve assertion to prove it with evidence. Logically, proof requires evidence, whether empirical or rational, and there can be no evidence for something which does not exist.

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Originally Posted by wedge

If there is a God then who created God?

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Well put my good men! :up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34-1W_9BhoU

yes there is, his name is Sebastien Loeb. :P

Asking who created God is like saying what came before the start of the Universe. This is a much more fundamental question IMO.

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Originally Posted by wedge

If there is a God then who created God?

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Chuck Norris :o

God wanted 10 days to create the world. Chuck Norris gave him 6.

:p :

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Originally Posted by ioan

If a worldwide poll's outcome would look like what our poll results look now, we would be living in a better world.

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That is naive. I'm an atheist too, but I don't think our world would be necessarily better without religion.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

That is naive. I'm an atheist too, but I don't think our world would be necessarily better without religion.

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It would if religious leaders realise that their beliefs should only govern their own lives and not everyone elses.

BBC News - Catholic cardinal criticises gay marriages plan

If there was no religion, the twin towers would still be standing and there would be no war in Afghanistan

Or would they? If there was no religion perhaps we'd stop hiding behind religion and be more open about what it's all about, power & control.

Religion is "dying hard"! I don't want to step on anyone’s spirituality. However, there was a time when unexplained natural phenomena and the idea of "causality" were not understood. Our species has evolved. We don't need human sacrifice to appease a rain god to ensure our corn will grow. And personally I don't need religion to know it is improper to take what belongs to someone else. The only thing I want to say about Jesus (not you Gloo) is; at a time when the Romans were ruling the middle east with an iron fist some Israelites were thinking that this may be a good time for the second coming of god. There were many candidates at the time, most were discarded as phonies, and arguably so was Jesus, because the majority of Israelites did not recognize him as "The One"
I don’t even want to get started on Caesar Constantine's promotion of "The Holy Roman Catholic Church", the justice it meted out to non believers, and intolerance of advances in physical science that the church instituted. What I do believe about jesus is that he was a non-violent revolutionary, and possibly the the first significant one.

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Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz

What I do believe about jesus is that he was a non-violent revolutionary, and possibly the the first significant one.

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Not too sure about that one but best to let it ride for the sake of the thread ;)

Please do elaborate!

There probably was a person called Jesus who did some good works, but centuries of handing down stories through the generations has distorted his history to the point where he's taken on an almost Brian like reverence.

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Originally Posted by Mark

Or would they? If there was no religion perhaps we'd stop hiding behind religion and be more open about what it's all about, power & control.

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Exactly. Let us not forget, Hitler and Stalin, the two biggest tyrants were also the biggest iconoclasts ever.

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Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz

I don’t even want to get started on Caesar Constantine's promotion of "The Holy Roman Catholic Church

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That's probably because Constantine and his sons weren't catholic in the first place. Check sources first.

If you need an example of a less tolerant ruler who promoted a certain denomination and persecuted dissidents, Diocletian would be a good choice.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

That's probably because Constantine and his sons weren't catholic in the first place. Check sources first.

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You have not taken my reference in the manner in which I meant it.

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In 313, the struggles of the early church were lessened by the legalization of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine I. In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor.

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I never implied that Constantine persecuted Catholics, only that he had it institutionalized.

I am a Christian and therefore a theist.

I won't try to change your beliefs, but there's quite a bit of literature that suggests an inclination towards religion is an evolutionary advantage. For one thing it unites a culture and organizes society. If you read the book Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches, there are very good reasons for the Jews to eschew the pig, and Hindus to not eat their sacred cows. There's a certain culture in southeast Asia whose name escapes me that had an elaborate schedule of religious feasts and celebrations. It was only in modern times that anthropologists discovered (when those schedules were abandoned) that the timing ensured agricultural success and minimized pest problems through strict calendar management.

For one thing, religion promises the "illusion of control" as Howard Bloom would put it in The Lucifer Principle, over the unpredictability of life. He also says the we modern men are no different, bowing to the modern medical shaman we call our Doctors. We read books with all sorts of conflicting advice on Parenting to try and control the uncontrollable, and I see religiosity all over the environmental movement, only now it's not for the sake of our souls, it's for the sake of the planet. In other words we are stillinclined to organize our thoughts this way.

The homily in mass yesterday was based on Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

I am sure many of you find me foolish, but I pray all the time as I move through life and I find it centers me and helps me make the right decisions, and I have been blessed. Even though I sell products to construction in a recession, I still had my best year ever. Everything is just opening up before me and I am amazed. No it's not perfect, but I could not imagine going through life as an agnostic or atheist. It may sound silly to many of you, but I am not alone.

Live the live you love
Use a god you trust
And don't take it all too seriously.

- Love And Rockets

Sheesh, my dog is god guys!

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

I am a Christian and therefore a theist.

I won't try to change your beliefs, but there's quite a bit of literature that suggests an inclination towards religion is an evolutionary advantage. For one thing it unites a culture and organizes society. If you read the book Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches, there are very good reasons for the Jews to eschew the pig, and Hindus to not eat their sacred cows. There's a certain culture in southeast Asia whose name escapes me that had an elaborate schedule of religious feasts and celebrations. It was only in modern times that anthropologists discovered (when those schedules were abandoned) that the timing ensured agricultural success and minimized pest problems through strict calendar management.

For one thing, religion promises the "illusion of control" as Howard Bloom would put it in The Lucifer Principle, over the unpredictability of life. He also says the we modern men are no different, bowing to the modern medical shaman we call our Doctors. We read books with all sorts of conflicting advice on Parenting to try and control the uncontrollable, and I see religiosity all over the environmental movement, only now it's not for the sake of our souls, it's for the sake of the planet. In other words we are stillinclined to organize our thoughts this way.

The homily in mass yesterday was based on Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

I am sure many of you find me foolish, but I pray all the time as I move through life and I find it centers me and helps me make the right decisions, and I have been blessed. Even though I sell products to construction in a recession, I still had my best year ever. Everything is just opening up before me and I am amazed. No it's not perfect, but I could not imagine going through life as an agnostic or atheist. It may sound silly to many of you, but I am not alone.

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Yes, it's easier to organise a functioning society when there are rules of conduct for daily life. That if you steal your neighbours bread and kill him at the same time, then you'll go to hell is a powerful motivator to keep you in line.

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Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz

Please do elaborate!

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What record do we have that Jesus was peaceful? The Bible was written 300 years later by a collection of Religious leaders and influencer's headed by Damascus. The rise of Damascus himself is astonishing with murder, riots, civil unrest and massacres preceding his appointment.

These are the authors of the New Testament. It is an amalgamation of doctrine composed by the politicians of the time to solve a civil problem.

Even so, there are many examples of violence and cruelty associated with Jesus in this fiction. For example, all the guff about respecting other faiths rather flies in the face of the assertion that those not baptised should be cast into the fire, or what about the sanctity of burial but Jesus says to ignore the dead and "let the dead bury their dead". We could even talk about when Jesus cast devils into a herd of swine forcing them to drown and the herders to lose their livelihood and they fled into the town and told what happened.

These aren't choice parts from all parts of the New testament but just a few pages of Matthew; a book about one of the disciples which was probably originally written about 100 AD and nobody knows the author even before it was incorporated into the New Testament.

We can look at acts of violence and teachings of cruelty by Jesus in other books but the most prophetic is probably that Jesus will cause Brother to kill Brother and Father to kill Son. This one at least has come true.

This is all in the sanitised version known as the New Testament and not the Blood and Guts, incest, rape, murder and sodomy read known as the Jewish Scripture or Old Testament whichever you prefer.

Was Jesus a peace loving Prophet? Dunno. However, I wouldn't rely on the New Testament to prove your point as I have many, many more examples.

All of which has little to do with God ;)

In debates like these I always wonder whether people would have "faith" if the formal religions didn't exist? If children weren't taken to church and told by their parents that God exists, how many would come to that conclusion all by themselves?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

In debates like these I always wonder whether people would have "faith" if the formal religions didn't exist? If children weren't taken to church and told by their parents that God exists, how many would come to that conclusion all by themselves?

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That is why Dawkins really dislikes children being labelled a 'Christian child' or a 'Muslim child'. You wouldn't label a child of tory parents a 'conservative child'.