Do You Know the Real Islam?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

[youtube]q_0kFU7IfPM[/youtube]

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Errr that does nothing to refute what I said.

Show me the text where the Pope says carry on screwing a different girl every night and take IV drugs but by no means must you EVER use condoms. I'll save you a little time, there is no such text. If Catholics lived their whole lives by the rules given to them by the Pope then HIV wouldn't be such a problem. The no condom rule doesn't exist in pure isolation does it.

Taking something someone says in isolation and refusing to see it in context is what extremists do and that applies both to atheists and religious types.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

[youtube]_nla1bo6ACU[/youtube]

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good video. The thing that pisses me off now is that I am behind on my knowledge of explosives. I was hoping at my age not to have another learning curve. So crap I will probably have to attend PETN classes. Meanwhile perhaps the answer is to ban religion.

[youtube]U0kJHQpvgB8[/youtube]

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Errr that does nothing to refute what I said.

Show me the text where the Pope says carry on screwing a different girl every night and take IV drugs but by no means must you EVER use condoms. I'll save you a little time, there is no such text. If Catholics lived their whole lives by the rules given to them by the Pope then HIV wouldn't be such a problem. The no condom rule doesn't exist in pure isolation does it.

Taking something someone says in isolation and refusing to see it in context is what extremists do and that applies both to atheists and religious types.

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BBC NEWS | Europe | Pope's condom stance sparks row

Pope - HIV/Aids was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem".

Of course abstinence and loyalty can prevent the spread of HIV, but so can condoms!

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Of course abstinence and loyalty can prevent the spread of HIV, but so can condoms!

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Its taken three posts for you to finally acknowledge that the Pope does preach abstinence and loyalty which if followed properly would prevent the spread of HIV. I'm sure you can also acknowledge that if you follow those rules then the use of condoms is then not necessary to protect you from HIV.

The blame in this case is with the 'followers' who ignore most of what the Pope says about sex but pick on the ban on condoms. And that is assuming that the Africans people are so concerned about are interested to hear what the Pope says on the subject anyway.

Frankly if prominent government officials in a democratic African state can openly proclaim that lemon juice is more effective than condoms or AZT in preventing HIV then the problem lies far deeper than what the Pope has to say.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Its taken three posts for you to finally acknowledge that the Pope does preach abstinence and loyalty which if followed properly would prevent the spread of HIV. I'm sure you can also acknowledge that if you follow those rules then the use of condoms is then not necessary to protect you from HIV.

The blame in this case is with the 'followers' who ignore most of what the Pope says about sex but pick on the ban on condoms. And that is assuming that the Africans people are so concerned about are interested to hear what the Pope says on the subject anyway.

Frankly if prominent government officials in a democratic African state can openly proclaim that lemon juice is more effective than condoms or AZT in preventing HIV then the problem lies far deeper than what the Pope has to say.

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Saying that comdoms can increase the spread of comdoms is a bigger crime and far outweighs the promoting of abstinence and loyalty .

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Saying that comdoms can increase the spread of comdoms

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What's a comdom? :p

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Originally Posted by Zico

What's a comdom? :p

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:(

Sorry..

if you open your mind too much, your brain might fall out :p
[youtube]DLKl1o-foG8[/youtube]

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Saying that comdoms can increase the spread of comdoms is a bigger crime and far outweighs the promoting of abstinence and loyalty .

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The problem is that the epidemiological evidence supports the Pope.

HIV rates are lower in conservative societies even allowing for underreporting of cases. It is rare in the Middle East and South America with the exception of countries where IV drug abuse is rife. HIV rates in the Bible belt are lower than on the coasts of the USA. Abstinence and loyalty are the biggest factors in preventing spread. I don't agree that spreading condoms increases the spread of HIV but I do agree that Catholic values of no pre-marital sex, one partner and no extra-marital sex are probably the single biggest factor reducing HIV spread. This may be a deeply unfashionably view but that is what the data shows.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

The problem is that the epidemiological evidence supports the Pope.

HIV rates are lower in conservative societies even allowing for underreporting of cases. It is rare in the Middle East and South America with the exception of countries where IV drug abuse is rife. HIV rates in the Bible belt are lower than on the coasts of the USA. Abstinence and loyalty are the biggest factors in preventing spread. I don't agree that spreading condoms increases the spread of HIV but I do agree that Catholic values of no pre-marital sex, one partner and no extra-marital sex are probably the single biggest factor reducing HIV spread. This may be a deeply unfashionably view but that is what the data shows.

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I personally believe that enlightening the population to practice safe sex is a better way to stop the spread of HIV than putting the fear of Gods wrath into them.

Education has seen HIV cases decrease in Western Europe, without the negative side effects that come with religion.

I finally figured out how the "White and Latin Euros" are combating the incredible muslim immigration.
They are going to send them over here, because our heads are so far up our asses we will never notice them coming in.

California Senator Threatens Boycott After Lowe's Pulls Ads From Muslim-American Reality Show | Fox News

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I personally believe that enlightening the population to practice safe sex is a better way to stop the spread of HIV than putting the fear of Gods wrath into them.

Education has seen HIV cases decrease in Western Europe, without the negative side effects that come with religion.

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Educating the population can be done alongside having conservative values intrinsic in society.

Disease doesn't care about religion or social morals. They take advantage of anything that permits them to spread. With a disease that is spread predominantly by exchanging bodily fluids its inevitable that limiting sexual contact and IV drug use will be the most effective agents to limit dissemination. I'm afraid that using a disease as a battleground to bash either Catholics or Atheists simply isn't effective.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I personally believe that enlightening the population to practice safe sex is a better way to stop the spread of HIV than putting the fear of Gods wrath into them.

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Malbec has data support his point. What about you?

BTW, it's not about HIV only. An early start of sexual life and multiple partners afterwards may cause infertility and lots of other problems with reproductive health.

Just a general point. It's funny to see one Muslim start a thread and evaporate after a single post just too see a bunch of Westerners discuss it in a polite tone and supporting points with arguments. I am not sure a Christian would be allowed to pull the same trick on a predominantly Muslim forum. I also suspect the level of correctness among Muslims discussing Christianity and (Allah forbid!) atheism would be somewhat different from what we see here.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

I am not sure a Christian would be allowed to pull the same trick on a predominantly Muslim forum.

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Perhaps not but that contrast assumes this is a predominantly Christian forum.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Perhaps not but that contrast assumes this is a predominantly Christian forum.

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Christian/atheist/agnostic from what I could see. All three views of this world belong to the European culture in the general sense, where even in the darkest times people did recognize the presence of different views and bothered to have a debate with dissenters before killing them.

BTW, just seen it on the news. Saudi Arabia, which is the definitive Muslim country in my book, just had a woman decapitated for sorcery. They had 67 people executed in 2009, 27 in 2010 and 73 this year. I wonder if this has something to do with Islam.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Educating the population can be done alongside having conservative values intrinsic in society.

Disease doesn't care about religion or social morals. They take advantage of anything that permits them to spread. With a disease that is spread predominantly by exchanging bodily fluids its inevitable that limiting sexual contact and IV drug use will be the most effective agents to limit dissemination. I'm afraid that using a disease as a battleground to bash either Catholics or Atheists simply isn't effective.

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The fact remains that the Pope didn't just say that abstinence and loyalty prevent sexually transmitted disease, he said that condoms don't and that condoms make the problems worse. His attitude seems to be 'AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse'.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Malbec has data support his point. What about you?

BTW, it's not about HIV only. An early start of sexual life and multiple partners afterwards may cause infertility and lots of other problems with reproductive health.

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I haven't seen Malbecs statistics. And even so, the data wouldn't prove anything. Data would show an increase of HIV diagnosis in the UK, but a majority of the new cases would be from people who have come to the UK already with HIV.

I really don't think that religious groups are the right ones to teach us about sex. Take the Catholic church; celibacy of nuns, priests, monks. Is this a natural and healthy attitude towards sex? The Catholic Church is obsessed with sex in the same way that anorexics are obsessed with food.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Christian/atheist/agnostic from what I could see. All three views of this world belong to the European culture in the general sense, where even in the darkest times people did recognize the presence of different views and bothered to have a debate with dissenters before killing them.

BTW, just seen it on the news. Saudi Arabia, which is the definitive Muslim country in my book, just had a woman decapitated for sorcery. They had 67 people executed in 2009, 27 in 2010 and 73 this year. I wonder if this has something to do with Islam.

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There's plenty of Christians burning 'witches' in places like Nigeria and Uganda

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Originally Posted by Captain VXR

There's plenty of Christians burning 'witches' in places like Nigeria and Uganda

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Your proof, and as you said plenty it had better be numerous and gov. executions, elsewise you are just blowing smoke.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

The fact remains that the Pope didn't just say that abstinence and loyalty prevent sexually transmitted disease, he said that condoms don't and that condoms make the problems worse. His attitude seems to be 'AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse'.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the Pope is a Catholic preaching to Catholics.

He is right to assume that practicing Catholics adhere to Catholic principles including abstaining from pre-marital sex etc. In that context can you please tell me what relevance condom use has for a couple who are faithful to each other for life as Catholic teachings prescribe in preventing HIV spread?

You're approaching his attitude towards condoms from a non-Catholic standpoint trying to apply it to lifestyles that are completely at odds with what the Pope preaches. You're right that condoms are essential for preventing all sorts of conditions in people who do sleep around, but then again they won't be Catholics by definition would they.

This whole thing about HIV, condoms and the Pope is incredibly poorly thought through. There are plenty of other awful issues over which to criticise the Catholic Church over but HIV is one subject where the arguments used to damn the Pope reflect poorly on those who criticise him.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I haven't seen Malbecs statistics. And even so, the data wouldn't prove anything. Data would show an increase of HIV diagnosis in the UK, but a majority of the new cases would be from people who have come to the UK already with HIV.

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And those migrants are from sub-Saharan Africa and the Indian sub-continent.

HIV is rampant in parts of the world where macho cultures persist in which men believe they can have as many partners as they want when they want, and where using protection is an affront to masculinity. That is why prostitution and rape are rife in sub-Saharan Africa and that is why HIV is so common there.

Blaming the Pope in this is largely an irrelevance. There has to be a fundamental culture shift in Africa and South Asia.

But going back to the UK, the HIV rate among the native British population has historically been and continues to be higher than in more conservative parts of the world. That is not something you can deny.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I really don't think that religious groups are the right ones to teach us about sex. Take the Catholic church; celibacy of nuns, priests, monks. Is this a natural and healthy attitude towards sex? The Catholic Church is obsessed with sex in the same way that anorexics are obsessed with food.

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Completely with you on that one.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Pope is a Catholic preaching to Catholics.

He is right to assume that practicing Catholics adhere to Catholic principles including abstaining from pre-marital sex etc. In that context can you please tell me what relevance condom use has for a couple who are faithful to each other for life as Catholic teachings prescribe in preventing HIV spread?

You're approaching his attitude towards condoms from a non-Catholic standpoint trying to apply it to lifestyles that are completely at odds with what the Pope preaches. You're right that condoms are essential for preventing all sorts of conditions in people who do sleep around, but then again they won't be Catholics by definition would they.

This whole thing about HIV, condoms and the Pope is incredibly poorly thought through. There are plenty of other awful issues over which to criticise the Catholic Church over but HIV is one subject where the arguments used to damn the Pope reflect poorly on those who criticise him.

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And what about his wicked lie that condoms increase the risk of catching HIV?

If the Catholic Church is right about the issue then why did the Pope change his mind last year?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

And those migrants are from sub-Saharan Africa and the Indian sub-continent.

HIV is rampant in parts of the world where macho cultures persist in which men believe they can have as many partners as they want when they want, and where using protection is an affront to masculinity. That is why prostitution and rape are rife in sub-Saharan Africa and that is why HIV is so common there.

Blaming the Pope in this is largely an irrelevance. There has to be a fundamental culture shift in Africa and South Asia.

But going back to the UK, the HIV rate among the native British population has historically been and continues to be higher than in more conservative parts of the world. That is not something you can deny.

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But is the reason peoples liberal attitude to sex? Or is it just a statistic that has come about because areas of Western Europe and the US coasts have societies that include more immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa?
Statistics are one-dimensional.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

And what about his wicked lie that condoms increase the risk of catching HIV?

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Except he didn't say that. He said that the use of condoms to combat HIV can backfire. I personally disagree with that but there have been medical studies showing that indeed some people receive free condoms but decline to use them, yet participate in more unprotected sex than they did before.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

But is the reason peoples liberal attitude to sex? Or is it just a statistic that has come about because areas of Western Europe and the US coasts have societies that include more immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa?
Statistics are one-dimensional.

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There are three ways HIV can spread.

Unprotected sex.
IV drug use.
Medical bodily fluid exchange.

Outside India the last of those three is pretty much non-existent. In most Western countries with aggressive needle exchange programmes the second is also much reduced.

In the UK and US you've chosen the biggest cause for HIV spread is indeed unprotected sex. You've talked about immigration from Sub-Saharan Africa where the spread of HIV is almost entirely due to 'liberal' attitudes to sex (I'd call it a misguided misogynistic attitude to sex personally). As for the native British population the greatest rise in HIV is also amongst heterosexuals who practice unprotected sex.

You say statistics are one-dimensional. What do you think then is the main route of HIV transmission in the UK and amongst the Sub-Saharan African population?

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Originally Posted by salarcon

It's incredibly sad how few people really know the true Islam today.

Islam teaches many things and that includes justice, love, preserving family blood ties, brotherhood, kindness to one's parents, and the list goes on.

Many people in the West confuse the real teachings of Islam with the stupid behavior of extremists who have the audacity to call themselves muslims. Real muslims do not kill innocent people.

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Really?

Then explain this headline.

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Saudi Arabia executes woman convicted of 'sorcery'
Saudi authorities have executed a woman convicted of practicing magic and sorcery.

Rape, murder, apostasy, armed robbery and drug trafficking are all punishable by death under Saudi Arabia's strict interpretation of Islamic sharia law.

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Saudi Arabia executes woman convicted of 'sorcery' - Telegraph

Religion is the scourge of the earth. Why do people of all religions listen to what is in a book written 5 million billion trillion years ago by some guy who lived in a cave and probably wiped his arse with his eating hand?

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Religion is the scourge of the earth. Why do people of all religions listen to what is in a book written 5 million billion trillion years ago by some guy who lived in a cave and probably wiped his arse with his eating hand?

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I may disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but I can't argue with this. We now live in an age of science and reason, which makes continued adherence to such texts all the more incomprehensible. Still, each to their own. And religion has produced many fascinating relics and buildings.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I may disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but I can't argue with this. We now live in an age of science and reason, which makes continued adherence to such texts all the more incomprehensible. Still, each to their own. And religion has produced many fascinating relics and buildings.

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Wow! Are you a reincarnation of Voltaire? I just recall that the establishment of the Cult of Reason in the revolutionary France as the final step of radical de-Christianization was followed by the Reign of Terror.

Some personifications of Marianne are really beautiful, though.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I may disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but I can't argue with this. We now live in an age of science and reason, which makes continued adherence to such texts all the more incomprehensible. Still, each to their own. And religion has produced many fascinating relics and buildings.

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You're not so bad after all ;) :p :

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Religion is the scourge of the earth. Why do people of all religions listen to what is in a book written 5 million billion trillion years ago by some guy who lived in a cave and probably wiped his arse with his eating hand?

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Hmm, if religious faith (I am not going to debate here which one is correct. ) is fairy tale, why would man have to created it?
If there is no higher power, why would man create somthing for which he had no base (no knolwedge period of any such idea) or reason to create?

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Hmm, if religious faith (I am not going to debate here which one is correct. ) is fairy tale, why would man have to created it?
If there is no higher power, why would man create somthing for which he had no base (no knolwedge period of any such idea) or reason to create?

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Our brain is hardwired to try and make sense out of what we perceive... it was simply evolutionary favourable to believe in the supernatural.
Now we should really know better...
Since there is no higher power, why does man still create something for which he has no base (no knowledge period of any such idea) or reason to create? :crazy: :p

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Hmm, if religious faith (I am not going to debate here which one is correct. ) is fairy tale, why would man have to created it?
If there is no higher power, why would man create somthing for which he had no base (no knolwedge period of any such idea) or reason to create?

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Why do children make up imaginary friends?

Has Donkey has said, religion probably had some sort of evolutionary benefit. For example, tribes that were prepared to die for a 'god' and belief of afterlife might have made more loyal and aggressive fighters than opponent tribes that didn't have such beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Except he didn't say that. He said that the use of condoms to combat HIV can backfire. I personally disagree with that but there have been medical studies showing that indeed some people receive free condoms but decline to use them, yet participate in more unprotected sex than they did before.



There are three ways HIV can spread.

Unprotected sex.
IV drug use.
Medical bodily fluid exchange.

Outside India the last of those three is pretty much non-existent. In most Western countries with aggressive needle exchange programmes the second is also much reduced.

In the UK and US you've chosen the biggest cause for HIV spread is indeed unprotected sex. You've talked about immigration from Sub-Saharan Africa where the spread of HIV is almost entirely due to 'liberal' attitudes to sex (I'd call it a misguided misogynistic attitude to sex personally). As for the native British population the greatest rise in HIV is also amongst heterosexuals who practice unprotected sex.

You say statistics are one-dimensional. What do you think then is the main route of HIV transmission in the UK and amongst the Sub-Saharan African population?

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I appreciate your point that you are making about the Roman Catholic moral guidance would in theory mean condoms aren't needed to fight HIV. But to be truly moral couldn't the church perhaps say:

1) be faithful to your partner
2) if you're likely to infect, don't have sex within marriage (or don't marry at all).
3) If you know you are likely to infect a potential spouse, tell them before you marry or the marriage is not a marriage.
4) If you do feel you need to use a condom, it's between you, your conscience and God.

Whether or not one is Catholic, people still hear the Pope's message across the world. Even in African countries where Catholics don't make up most of the population, the Catholic Church still plays a big role in medical services. The church's stance on condoms could potentially reduce supply of them.

Do you really think for one second that it would be any easier to get the whole of male population on the side of monogamy than it would be to get a significant proportion to use condoms?

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

Our brain is hardwired to try and make sense out of what we perceive... it was simply evolutionary favourable to believe in the supernatural.
Now we should really know better...
Since there is no higher power, why does man still create something for which he has no base (no knowledge period of any such idea) or reason to create? :crazy: :p

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That would be because God put it there; whereas if there is no God, the need for such a thing is zero.
We supposedly evolved from animals but I have never seen an animal play with imaginary friends as another poster uses for a lame analogy.
If they did, there would have to be a pre-existing event or thing to recreate with imagination.

There is nothing in the theory of evolution to explain or justify man supposedly creating god because he did not remember where he came from, which would be from nothing and from nothing comes nothing so for some to make, a make believe story, whilst coming from a non-existant history of make believe storys makes the explanation why man would have to make up god the most bizarre fairy tale I ever heard.
If man evolved he can be hard wired for nothing, anything that is hard-wired is due to a pre-existing condition, or to cause a later condition from a pre-existing standard.
Evolution is strictly a game of chance, so that could not apply.

You are using the same make believe thought process that those who condemn people of religious faith, condemn people of faith, of having.
Their is no logic to defend it, so let's make one up.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Personally I beleive our existence to be the result of a complex biological reaction and a process that started many millions of years ago. I don't for one second beleive a person or a higher force is responsible for the creation of millions of species on this planet. If God created us and its reasonable to suggest there are other planets out there with life on them, then I think it would have been decent to tell us. Religion is great for an individual who needs stability and guidance, but its not for everyone and not everyone needs it in their life. I live for myself, my family and my friends and am not concerned in the slightest about what happens to me when I die. I can't see the point in living your life in fear of something that nobody has proved even exists. People turn that around and say well nobody has proved god doesn't exist but I've seen more proof to support my view personally. Each to their own and all that lol.

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Where did this complex biological material come from, and what supplied the energy?
From nothing comes nothing, so where did it come from.

Of course there is Dawkins who believes life came from crystals but I think such an obtuse statement says maybe he put to much faith in the CRYSTAL METHod.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Hmm, if religious faith (I am not going to debate here which one is correct. ) is fairy tale, why would man have to created it?
If there is no higher power, why would man create somthing for which he had no base (no knolwedge period of any such idea) or reason to create?

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Because religion was used to control and manipulate the people. In the case of religions such as Islam, it still does :(

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

From nothing comes nothing, so where did it come from.

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Nail...head...exactly. So where did a god come from then? Something had to create them, just like something had to happen for us to be around here!

As Arrows pointed out, I will not live my life in fear just because some book says I must. I'm enjoying my life, I am a loving father and husband and I do my fair share of goodwill work for my fellow man. If that makes me a "sinner" who's gonna fry for all eternity, so be it!

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Because religion was used to control and manipulate the people. In the case of religions such as Islam, it still does :(

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It's how you use it. You're being manipulated on a daily basis by commercial ads. Chances are, you give in, at least from time to time. Does it negate the idea of advertising?

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

It's how you use it. You're being manipulated on a daily basis by commercial ads. Chances are, you give in, at least from time to time. Does it negate the idea of advertising?

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I don't see a Coke ad and then run out and buy one. I make informed decisons on what I need not what adverts say I need when I actually don't! Advertising is for the week minded with an overdrawn credit card :p

I'm going to stick to my own religion, although the authorities won't recognise it as a religion. I'm a practicing member of the rally religion. Services are held regularly in forests all over the world, on gravel roads and on tarmac. To join the religion you must be prepared to spend many nights in the shed working in crappy lighting to get your car ready for the next event.

We worship the god's of rallying some still with us some gone to the great service park in the sky. Hallowed ground be near a 1000 lakes in a country far to the North, in Africa we worship in the land of the Safari, in the New World we spend time in the 100 acre wood. We idolise the the famous stages in the world such as Whaanga Coast in NZ, we will travel afar to meet with many of our kind. We are Rally!!!!

Ray