vettel and his records

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8th November 2011, 19:04
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

I can only think of two drivers who have proven this in the past and they are Alonso and Hamilton. Both are able to adapt to cars with less than preferable setups and get the maximum out of it. Schumacher was also able to do this pre 2006. I know alot of people would say Vettel for his impressive win at Monza '08, but the Toro Rosso was hardly the worst car and their gamble of using a wet weather setup for qualy and the race paid dividends. Still impressive none the less.

And when exactly were Renault and McLaren the worst cars, or worse than the 2008 STR? I'm not sure when did Hamilton and Alonso had to adapt to a car that was about 5th on the grid and won a race, care to share with us?
8th November 2011, 20:20
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

You've been following F1 long enough to know the answer to that question. If you want to take my post as a negative towards Vettel then thats your prerogative.

Exactly, there was no such occassion.
9th November 2011, 18:36
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Only a crap pit stop by RBR lost Vettel the win there.

Yeah, how sad that he gets one problem throughout the year, compared to about 30 problems for every other racer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

And when exactly were Renault and McLaren the worst cars, or worse than the 2008 STR? I'm not sure when did Hamilton and Alonso had to adapt to a car that was about 5th on the grid and won a race, care to share with us?

rapunzel never won a race with the 5th best car on grid, that STR was a monster that day at Monza, as witnessed by Bourdais' performance. It was probably the fastest car that day.
9th November 2011, 19:57
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

If thats what you think then fine but please be aware that is not what I suggested.

That's exactly what you wrote, no suggestion, it was black on white (no pun intended).
9th November 2011, 19:57
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

rapunzel never won a race with the 5th best car on grid, that STR was a monster that day at Monza, as witnessed by Bourdais' performance. It was probably the fastest car that day.

So did Bourdais finish 2nd and we all missed it?! LOL
9th November 2011, 23:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

No but he did qualify an impressive 4th and maybe if he hadn't stalled his car on the grid he may well have finished 2nd, who knows? He'd be an all time great now off the back of that performance lol.

So nowadays 4th is impressive, but being 1st in the very same car doesn't mean that the driver did rise above the level of the machinery? Just asking.
10th November 2011, 01:47
kfzmeister

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

He did beat exactly the established team to take pole, unless somehow the big teams were not in Monza that week end.
Are you an Alonso fan by chance? You sure sound like one.

He LUCKED into it that weekend, due to weather and some poor calls from Ferrari and McLaren during qualifying! You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Don't make it sound like he outdrove anybody that day. The real racing and impressive drives happened behind Vettel. Hamilton dicing through the field, Alonso and Kubica on a one stopper from midfield. Towards the end of the race, a half a dozen drivers were lapping more than a second faster than Vettel. He was gifted that day.

And yes, Alonso's my boi!
10th November 2011, 11:00
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

rapunzel never won a race with the 5th best car on grid, that STR was a monster that day at Monza, as witnessed by Bourdais' performance. It was probably the fastest car that day.

I think McLaren was the fastest car on that day, not STR. Hamilton had a botched qualifying, but despite that he would have finished the race at least in P2 if he didn't have to make an extra pitstop due to changing weather and hence unfortunate strategy. Kovalainen drove a steady race and finished second, but his impression on podium said it all. I have rarely seen as miserable second place finisher as he was that day. I think he knew the race was his to win, but was unable to grab the opportunity.
12th November 2011, 10:18
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfzmeister

He LUCKED into it that weekend, due to weather and some poor calls from Ferrari and McLaren during qualifying! You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

You should have posted: 'I know it', it would have been credible.
12th November 2011, 16:01
vhatever

I find it funny that RBR is dominant -- but vettel is the only one who does the dominating, that STR "that year was a monster", but only with vettel driving it -- he had like 3 races he was in a good position to win. And now what happened to the STR "monster" how come not a single race since vettel has the team looked like they had even a prayer of winning?? RBR didn't even win one until vettel joined them. You vettel hating bigots are simply ridiculous, full stop. Vettel is the real deal and you will spend the next 10 years of your life fully constipated about becuase you can't just accept it and move on.
12th November 2011, 18:03
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhatever

I find it funny that RBR is dominant -- but vettel is the only one who does the dominating, that STR "that year was a monster", but only with vettel driving it -- he had like 3 races he was in a good position to win. And now what happened to the STR "monster" how come not a single race since vettel has the team looked like they had even a prayer of winning?? RBR didn't even win one until vettel joined them. You vettel hating bigots are simply ridiculous, full stop. Vettel is the real deal and you will spend the next 10 years of your life fully constipated about becuase you can't just accept it and move on.

Cheers! :up:
12th November 2011, 20:03
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

STR are now designing their own cars rather than using rebranded Red Bulls as they were in 2008. You are right though Vettel is a hell of a designer/engineer and made the difference at STR and Red Bull. Its only a matter of time before Newey's cover is blown lol.

Seriously if you're going to insult members here with offensive names, at least justify it with something that doesn't sound like a football fan who's just learnt the ingredients off the back of a Ginsters pasty wrapper. :eek:

So much rubbish. You're getting desperate now that Vettel blew Hamy into the weeds and destroyed any trace of self confidence that Lewis 'sliced bread' Hamilton ever had.
Heck, even Button is looking down on him right now.
12th November 2011, 22:47
CNR

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhatever

I find it funny that RBR is dominant -- but vettel is the only one who does the dominating, that STR "that year was a monster", but only with vettel driving it -- he had like 3 races he was in a good position to win. And now what happened to the STR "monster" how come not a single race since vettel has the team looked like they had even a prayer of winning?? RBR didn't even win one until vettel joined them. You vettel hating bigots are simply ridiculous, full stop. Vettel is the real deal and you will spend the next 10 years of your life fully constipated about becuase you can't just accept it and move on.

Q:how good he could have been if taken under the wing or the team owner at a young age
13th November 2011, 20:23
F1boat

Seb is great, but doesn't do crashes and maybe people don't like dominating champions.
14th November 2011, 20:36
CNR

FORMULA ONE - F1: Only Three Can Win Without Best Car - De la Rosa

Quote:

"For me, Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are the only drivers who can win Grands Prix without having the best car on the grid," added de la Rosa.
14th November 2011, 20:51
CNR

one more for the record ?
first time in 61 years a pole sitter having a puncture on lap one
14th November 2011, 21:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNR

FORMULA ONE - F1: Only Three Can Win Without Best Car - De la Rosa

There's a huge list of drivers who did that, but still it doesn't include PDLR. ;)
15th November 2011, 02:18
CNR

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

There's a huge list of drivers who did that, but still it doesn't include PDLR. ;)

even an ex-f1 driver thinks that the red bull is not the best car
15th November 2011, 09:26
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNR

even an ex-f1 driver thinks that the red bull is not the best car

Where did he say that the Red Bull was not the best car? Are you claiming that because he thinks Seb, Lewis and Alonso are capable of winning in a car other than the best car, then he feels that the Mercedes is the best car on the grid?

He just didn't say anything remotely like what you claimed.
15th November 2011, 14:29
jens

Vettel and his records? Maybe Seb now has the record for the fastest puncture as well? :p : As hard as I'm trying to recall all races I have seen, I just cannot remember anyone ever suffering a puncture like that after a race start, except in contact with another car/barrier.
15th November 2011, 16:40
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Vettel and his records? Maybe Seb now has the record for the fastest puncture as well? :p : As hard as I'm trying to recall all races I have seen, I just cannot remember anyone ever suffering a puncture like that after a race start, except in contact with another car/barrier.

I know! It's Vettel's fault that Pirelli tires are crap. :rolleyes:

Vettel would have been 3x world champion if they immediately carted him over to RBR from STR in 2008. DC was just a waste of a seat and Webber's criticism in 2007, "It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they **** it all up" of Vettel has come back to bite him in the butt.
15th November 2011, 17:33
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I know! It's Vettel's fault that Pirelli tires are crap. :rolleyes:

Thank GOD the mystery has been solved by GloomyDAY.

Please, please, please let us know why the tyre was at fault when it had previously been fine during qualification as nobody else has a scooby. I don't think even ioan has criticised Pirelli for this failure yet. :rolleyes:
15th November 2011, 17:43
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Thank GOD the mystery has been solved by GloomyDAY.

Please, please, please let us know why the tyre was at fault when it had previously been fine during qualification as nobody else has a scooby. I don't think even ioan has criticised Pirelli for this failure yet. :rolleyes:

So what else was possibly at fault, if not the tyre? If a racing driver uses a completely usual and ordinary line and suddenly 'kaboom'. I think in the past drivers have been more at fault in their hydraulics, gearbox and engine failures than Vettel in that tyre failure.

The tyre might have been fine in qualifying, but this doesn't really matter. Equipment can give up suddenly without any previous warning. Engines are often at their highest power before blowing up. Mansell was driving very competitive laptimes at Adelaide '86 before puncture.
15th November 2011, 17:46
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

So what else was possibly at fault, if not the tyre? If a racing driver uses a completely usual and ordinary line and suddenly 'kaboom'. I think in the past drivers have been more at fault in their hydraulics, gearbox and engine failures than Vettel in that tyre failure.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/1...tml#post984597

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

It was a very strange failure. Abu Dhabi is a pretty well run event so I think it would be unlikely it was caused by debris although such a catastrophic failure is normally associated with that sort of puncture.

One theory could be that they were running lower than recommended tyre pressures and either Seb didn't get enough heat in during the sighting lap or that he expected a little too much of the tyres before they were up to race temperature. Other causes could be an issue with the seating or a similar issue.

Personally, I would think it less likely that it was a Tyre defect because those tyres had been used in qualifying and checked afterwards. If there was a structural issue, it is likely it would have failed during qualifying when it was under maximum load rather than at the start of the GP.

Lets hope we find out soon.
16th November 2011, 11:17
555-04Q2

Even if Vettel is in the best car by miles, one fact remains to support just how good he has been this year...Webber has not won a single race this year to his double digit haul. That is a telling statistic that reminds me why The Shoe was so good in his heyday. He did the same thing to his teamates.

Vettel is GOOD people, very good!
16th November 2011, 11:43
Ranger

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I know! It's Vettel's fault that Pirelli tires are crap. :rolleyes:

Pirelli rules out structural damage as reason for Sebastian Vettel's puncture - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Quote:

Following a detailed examination of the tyre after the crash, which suffered an instantaneous deflation and put Vettel out of the race after he spun and damaged his rear suspension, Pirelli is adamant that the issue was not caused by factors under its control.

Red Bull inflate their tyres outside of Pirelli's recommended limits (as do many other teams apparently). Add the exhaust gases near the wheels and that could be one potential explanation - but who knows.

Pirelli make a convenient scapegoat regardless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Vettel would have been 3x world champion if they immediately carted him over to RBR from STR in 2008.

The 2008 STR was better than the Red Bull car from mid-season onwards.

The fact that Bourdais often qualified near Vettel, ahead of both RBR cars either means that either:

a) Bourdais was also a brilliant F1 driver, better than both Webber and Coulthard
b) The STR car was better than the RBR car.

Vettel's victory in Monza was brilliant but it doesn't give evidence to support pointless speculation.

Quote:

DC was just a waste of a seat and Webber's criticism in 2007, "It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they **** it all up" of Vettel has come back to bite him in the butt.

Driver suffers food poisoning, vomits in helmet, puts himself in contention to win his first race and then gets punted off under safety car.

Don't you think a heated remark at that point in time should just be left as that?
16th November 2011, 12:48
Knock-on

So, it is looking more likely that RBR may have compromised their driver yet again by running outside recommended safe operating parameters.
16th November 2011, 13:01
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Even if Vettel is in the best car by miles, one fact remains to support just how good he has been this year...Webber has not won a single race this year to his double digit haul. That is a telling statistic that reminds me why The Shoe was so good in his heyday. He did the same thing to his teamates.

Vettel is GOOD people, very good!

I have to agree with that. I am no Vettel fan, but I do appreciate his talents. I'm not the one to believe in conspiracy theories, especially in Formula 1, and I do believe Webber has been thoroughly outclassed by Vettel this year. At the end of the day, the harsh truth that Webber fans have to face is that that car in Webber's hands probably wouldn't have won the championship. The fact remains that Vettel has gotten used to the Pirellis much, much better than Webber has. I believe Webber is still struggling.

Also, Vettel is an amazing qualifier. His qualifying laps are some of the best that I have seen with full commitment and 100% aggression in every corner. His race craft has also improved ten folds compared to last year. He fully deserves this championship.
16th November 2011, 16:31
Dave B

Horner mentioned that after Vettel's tyre failure in Abu Dhabi he joined them on the pitwall. Not for a casual chat, but to thoroughly immerse himself in how the team make strategy decisions and monitor the data flowing to them. He'll have gleaned a valuable insight into the workings of the team which might, one day in the future, be the difference between winning or losing a race.

A lesser driver might have gone for an icecream...
16th November 2011, 19:46
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

So did Bourdais finish 2nd and we all missed it?! LOL

LOL!!! You forgot him stalling the car at the start? Did that somehow make Blonde Turd's car slower?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

So nowadays 4th is impressive, but being 1st in the very same car doesn't mean that the driver did rise above the level of the machinery? Just asking.

No driver can rise above the level of his machinery, that is just impossible.
If an absolute nobody in rain like bourdais can qualify that car in 4th place, then it had to be a hell of a quick car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

I think McLaren was the fastest car on that day, not STR. Hamilton had a botched qualifying, but despite that he would have finished the race at least in P2 if he didn't have to make an extra pitstop due to changing weather and hence unfortunate strategy. Kovalainen drove a steady race and finished second, but his impression on podium said it all. I have rarely seen as miserable second place finisher as he was that day. I think he knew the race was his to win, but was unable to grab the opportunity.

Hamilton was never finishing that race in 2nd place.
So now we are judging the speed of a car by how the driver looks after the race?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhatever

I find it funny that RBR is dominant -- but vettel is the only one who does the dominating, that STR "that year was a monster", but only with vettel driving it -- he had like 3 races he was in a good position to win. And now what happened to the STR "monster" how come not a single race since vettel has the team looked like they had even a prayer of winning?? RBR didn't even win one until vettel joined them. You vettel hating bigots are simply ridiculous, full stop. Vettel is the real deal and you will spend the next 10 years of your life fully constipated about becuase you can't just accept it and move on.

LOL!!!! Another Blonde Turd fanboy suffering from from both kinds of diarrhoea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

So much rubbish. You're getting desperate now that Vettel blew Hamy into the weeds and destroyed any trace of self confidence that Lewis 'sliced bread' Hamilton ever had.
Heck, even Button is looking down on him right now.

Let's wait when Blonde Turd does not have a car that is 1 second per lap faster than that of Hamilton's and we'll see how cocky blonde turd and his fanboys then will be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Where did he say that the Red Bull was not the best car? Are you claiming that because he thinks Seb, Lewis and Alonso are capable of winning in a car other than the best car, then he feels that the Mercedes is the best car on the grid?

You are arguing with Blonde Turd fanboys, they have no sense of reality and are driven by extreme fanboy feelings, you cannot reason with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Vettel would have been 3x world champion if they immediately carted him over to RBR from STR in 2008. DC was just a waste of a seat and Webber's criticism in 2007, "It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they **** it all up" of Vettel has come back to bite him in the butt.

It was only the fault of Blonde Turd that he ruined what was clearly the best car in 2009 and didnt take the title with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B

Horner mentioned that after Vettel's tyre failure in Abu Dhabi he joined them on the pitwall. Not for a casual chat, but to thoroughly immerse himself in how the team make strategy decisions and monitor the data flowing to them. He'll have gleaned a valuable insight into the workings of the team which might, one day in the future, be the difference between winning or losing a race.

A lesser driver might have gone for an icecream...

Truly stupid stupid example.
16th November 2011, 21:54
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If an absolute nobody in rain like bourdais can qualify that car in 4th place, then it had to be a hell of a quick car.

Hamilton was never finishing that race in 2nd place.
So now we are judging the speed of a car by how the driver looks after the race?

Let's wait when Blonde Turd does not have a car that is 1 second per lap faster than that of Hamilton's and we'll see how cocky blonde turd and his fanboys then will be.

Amusing, how Garry Walker pops out every now and then to tell us, how much Vettel sucks without a balanced view.
And may I ask, how objective is your judgement of car's speeds? Perhaps Bourdais was having a good weekend and that's why he qualified 4th, not that he was always and in every single race weekend slow. Your hate for Vettel is well-known, so your talk about all his success being based on only an extremely fast car can only be taken with a pinch of salt. Funny that you accuse people of being fanboys, while it looks like your views are far more extreme than the ones of fanboys.
16th November 2011, 22:40
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Amusing, how Garry Walker pops out every now and then to tell us, how much Vettel sucks without a balanced view.
And may I ask, how objective is your judgement of car's speeds? Perhaps Bourdais was having a good weekend and that's why he qualified 4th, not that he was always and in every single race weekend slow. Your hate for Vettel is well-known, so your talk about all his success being based on only an extremely fast car can only be taken with a pinch of salt. Funny that you accuse people of being fanboys, while it looks like your views are far more extreme than the ones of fanboys.

Well, quite. I am not one to have 'favourite' drivers, yet I would have thought that even the most balanced observer would view Vettel as an incredible talent, one of the best we've seen for many a year.

To address one of the more specific points, let's face it, chances to see a true great of the future starting their career in a really slow car, like Alonso in the Minardi, are going to be very few and far between nowadays.
17th November 2011, 05:13
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Truly stupid stupid example.

No Garry, it's a very very good example.
17th November 2011, 05:14
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Well, quite. I am not one to have 'favourite' drivers, yet I would have thought that even the most balanced observer would view Vettel as an incredible talent, one of the best we've seen for many a year.

To address one of the more specific points, let's face it, chances to see a true great of the future starting their career in a really slow car, like Alonso in the Minardi, are going to be very few and far between nowadays.

:up:
17th November 2011, 07:48
Valve Bounce

I think Vettel's performance this year has shown that he is the best driver around today. The thing is, I think that he will continue to get faster and faster around a track, and I just hope that he will always have a great sense of respect towards the other drivers on the track.

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