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We've been there before effectively after WWII and the debt burden to the USA. Heck, we carried on rationing for quite some time to fund our way out of the mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Let the UK housing market crash. Suffer the pain so that, once again, folk don't have to wait until they are in their 30's (assuming they've paid off their education debts) to get on the housing ladder without having to buy a bug hutch next door to the benefit cheats.........
Cheap holiday to Greece next year, anyone? :s
It'll be a riot......Quote:
Originally Posted by J4MIE
If they quit the Euro Zone, can we get Duty Free? Might pop back for a Giros.
Looks like they will not be asked as to whether they agree with the bailout terms but whether they want to remain part of the Euro, something most Greeks will vote yes to.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Thats a clever move IMO. Agree to staying with the Euro and they are agreeing to the bailout terms. They get the Greek population to back the bailout terms without asking them to agree to it directly.
That's certainly what the French want the question to be...But I think the Greek PM has said he still wants it to be a straight yes/no on the bailout, which is just a weak a$$ move to try an save his own political future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
... or keeping his country from going up in flames. It's one thing to recover economically, it's another to try to accomplish the same amongst the ashes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic
They better do something fast!
Italy's 'shock therapy' as eurozone manufacturing buckles - TelegraphQuote:
Markit’s manufacturing index for Euroland dropped well below the break-even reading of 50 in October. The data for Italy plunged five points to 43.3, the biggest drop since the survey began in the 1990s.
Nature has a way of weeding out the weak to make way for the strong. It's about survival of the fittest. This goes for business/markets too. Why try and save a failure when something superior can come along and replace it?
I think it's mainly to save the poor innocent souls that are dragged down with it. What needs to change first is the ability of these markets to inflict so much damage on people other than themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
While I sympathize with people who loose their job. How do you ever stop someone from being hurt when a business fails? Do you propose that the workers all get their pay until something comes along? Do you continually bail out failed businesses? How long do you support the "poor innocent souls"? How do you define "poor innocent souls"? I presume you are speaking of the workers with that? But what about the owner of the business? They sunk their entire lives into a business, and sometimes through no real fault of their own, the business fails, ruining them, causing them to go bankrupt. What about them? Shouldn't we bail them out? Where do you draw the line? Who will pay for all this?Quote:
Originally Posted by intheway
The harsh reality of life is that it sucks from time to time. The sooner people realize this, the better off we'll all be.
OK - then what about honest hard working folk, who, saved via a work contribution based pension scheme all their working life, who found out upon retirement that the crooked shyster running the business had pissed the pension pot up the wall on fast cars, even faster women and big boats????????Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Why? Capitalism is working isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
If you can prove that the crooked shyster is actually crooked, and that he pissed the pension away, throw him in jail he broke the law. And where was the oversight from the individuals contributing to the pension (did they not check their monthly statements)? How about the company's board of directors?Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Better yet, what about the government pension (Social Security) that people are forced to pay into. What happens when crooked politicians raid the "trust fund" to pay for pork barrel crap, and then when you go to retire, there's nothing for you? You had no choice in the matter. You had to pay into the system. And politicians you had no hand in electing/ no control over were the one's responsible? What happens then?
I don't think anyone really cares about the Greeks,that's not the reason measures are being taken. They're trying to protect other countries and basically the whole world economy from a serious downturn.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
But the problem is that if we don't bail out the Greeks, the crisis may spread to Italy and then on to Spain and also into the United States pretty soon. The same happened in 2008 when the US bank crisis spread here. So it's a choice, either you help them or you run a risk of setting the whole world in flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
What choice in the matter does anyone have regarding the actions of those responsible for administering a private sector pension, until it's too late?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Someone has to be doing periodic audits of what the administrators are doing. If they are not, I would not invest.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
What about the second part of my question, it's similar to yours. What do you do when you are FORCED to invest in something (Social Security), that is administered by elected officials, the majority of which I have no say over, and then that fund goes bankrupt? That is the very real situation I find myself in. I am 32 years old, I am forced to pay into the Social Security fund, and I can not find one rational person that truly believes that fund will be there when/if I get to retire. How is that fair? How is that system better than allowing individuals to invest their own money as they see fit?
This is so true. Talk here is that it could affect Australia's economy. I think the only guy to end up not suffering any economic fallout is China.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
It's no different whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
What do you do when you are FORCED to invest in something (Superannuation), that is administered by unelected officials, all which I have no say over, and then that fund goes bankrupt? That is the very real situation I find myself in. I am 33 years old, I am forced at law to pay into a Superannuation fund, and I can not find one rational person that truly believes that the entire superannuation system will be there when/if I get to retire. How is that fair?
It is not fair. I would not advocate for anyone to be forced into such a thing. Quite the opposite in fact I am arguing against forced retirement funds and for individual responsibility in the matter. I am sorry if I was not clear on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I don't see how China can remain unaffected either. They're facing their own little credit bubble and their property market is overheating. They need a collapse of their export markets like a hole in the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
In Australia there is a compulsory 9% of people's wages paid into Superannuation Funds. What it's meant is a tremendous source of capital has been created (about A$ 1 trillion), but there has also been an equally tremendous opportunity to cream off 1% of that in Fund Management fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
China has so big domestic market that is in many ways undeveloped they just have to sell the stuff there that did go to export, so the effect will be quite small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Thats my point though, their own economy is overheating with both credit and property bubbles developing. When the bubble bursts China's domestic market will suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
The China Bubble is already bursting. China is just putting band-aids on everything but they will not hold for long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
The real country at risk in the EU is France. Their banks are exposed up to their necks in Greek, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese paper. They can survive a Greek crash but if Italy goes...........The Dollar & Swiss Franc will look real good and Gold will hit $2,400.00
I dont think it will to overheat much, their BNP growt has been big even they let it go down 50% its still huge compaired to everywhere else, one thing they could do is to stop borrowing money to broke countries, that would force the countries to look for other ways to balance their economy, for instance printing more money is not a solution, its just a way to move serious problems a little further to the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
China needs its current growth rate to carry on, it can't tolerate a drop in growth. A drop in growth means mass employment and an increase in unrest. Even during the boom days there were large strikes and riots that the official government tried to suppress outside knowledge of. The Chinese government is terrified of the effects of increased unrest which is why they've focused on huge economic growth to prevent this from happening for the last two/three decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
China is not a benevolent lender that is merely happy to earn a bit of interest on the money it lends out. Nor is it stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
Those countries that borrow from China in this time of need and I'm talking bailout money not selling them bonds, does so at their peril. The Chinese will extract their pound of flesh in terms of concessions and political favours. It is for a good reason that the EU until this current problem had a policy in place that no individual member would ask the Chinese (specifically and noone else) for bailout money.
The common currency really came about because the spectacular collapse of the USSR. It was a very natural step to re-unite West and East Germany but in doing so it created a behemoth nation with 30% of Europe's output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
With a unified Germany being much larger than the UK, France or Italy it raised fears of disturbed politcal balance in favour of Germany. The best way to to address this balance was thought to be a big increase in the forces tying the EU together. The Euro was the result of this.
Is that such a bad thing? The world has been living beyond its means, governed by a few greedy people. Maybe its time for a change?Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
It is indeed time for a change. But the pain we will all have to suffer to facilitate that change is gonna hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
No pain.....no gain! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
:laugh: Spoken like a fitness instructor!Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
:laugh: :up:
Forcing people to take responsibility for their own lives is like getting stitches.....Yea its gonna hurt but consider the alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Wot? Not getting stitches? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
The Superannuation Fund sounds very simmilar to our Social Security program. Again, I am very much against FORCING anyone into a system, particularly when corruption and mismanagement are so readily apparent as is the case with the Superannuation Fund and Social Secuity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Thought you might appreciate a quick overview of economics in the Euro Zone.
Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece. The Mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor he wondered how he could afford such a house. The Spaniard said; "You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to build a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end this house could be built".
The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek Mayor's house, gold taps, marble floors, it was marvellous. When he asked how this could be afforded the Greek said; "You see that bridge over there?" The Spaniard replied; "No."
When YOUR business is affected your opinion will change. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yes of course, but my business is progressive and adapts with the times and changes. I have made double the money during the current world recession (2008 - now) than I did in the 3 years before. I just picked up the slack from other companies that liquidated and found new avenues of business to pursue. There is always business out there, some people bother to go out and find it, the rest close down and bitch about it being someone else's fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
As I said, the weak make way for the strong.